The Conclave

The Ordos Majoris - Hobby, Painting and Modelling => The Dark Millennium => Topic started by: jakob on January 11, 2011, 05:10:39 PM

Title: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: jakob on January 11, 2011, 05:10:39 PM
Just a wee question here. What is the Imperium's view on human cloning? Is it accepted or deemed heretical?

An idea I have for the story I'm posting currently in the In-character thread will involve some elite cloned storm troopers. But I want to first make sure that this would be in keeping with the 40k fluff. My reasoning is that human cloning would be an accepted part of imperium life, look at what they do to create servitors etc.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated

cheers
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: GAZKUL on January 11, 2011, 05:59:26 PM
there's a few motes in the background for Primarch Corax about what may be clones, don't know otherwise.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: MarcoSkoll on January 12, 2011, 03:53:14 AM
Just a wee question here. What is the Imperium's view on human cloning? Is it accepted or deemed heretical?
The answer is sort of.... eh, mmmmyearrr huh.

In other words it's a little vague.

Clones are not "truly human" as such (without souls, if the Ministorum is to be believed). While that is acceptable for a servitor, the idea of anything that is human (a servitor is genetically human meat as far as they're concerned) like that is an abomination, a heresy.

If cloning were acceptable, then Space Marines would be largely clones - find a good genetic donor and run off fifty copies. There have been Replicae in the past, but they are largely denied, usually had problems, and are not common practice.

So, clones have at times happened, but more commonly the idea is individuals "spliced together" from several sources with genenhancements - so they are not so much a clone as someone with a really messed up and not necessarily entirely consenting family tree.

Depending on what exactly these troops are, the Imperium still wouldn't use a squad of identical troops for the same reason that in Star Wars, the cloned stormtroopers (some storm troopers were "normal recruits") were later produced from a wider range of sources - if one of them has a weakness, they all do. If one of them were to be "corrupted", they all could be. Their loyalty will be more to each other than to the Imperium, and you don't want that.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: biggreengribbly on January 12, 2011, 06:26:37 PM
I could very well be completely imagining it, I certainly feel like I am considering the mechanical-replacement driven nature of the Mechanicus, but I have a niggling memory of senior elements of the Mechanicus being cited somewhere as transferring their knowledge to vat-grown clones to artificially extend their lifespans...
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: psycho on January 12, 2011, 09:13:23 PM
I believe the Afriel Strain troopers were all Clones.....that is until most of them were wiped out (they suffer from the same extremely bad luck as the Lamentors Chapter does)....they are shunned by other troops and are always pale skinned and fair haired (almost to a point of it being white)....noone seems to like them so i guess Marcos post is correct in saying "HERESY"

kerby
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: jakob on January 12, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it.

I havent gone into the troops in detail yet in my recent post though when I do I think I'll just keep them as being basic storm troopers (or as basic as they get). I've tweaked my ideas for the fic I'm writing so they won't get much limelight but will still play a part.

Thanks again for the input.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Elva on January 12, 2011, 10:01:49 PM
Oddly enough, I remember reading a GW published article about a stormtrooper who was a clone from a world that practiced it rather prolifically with decent results. If you want I'll try and find the article, it was in Marco's big Inquisitor folder.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: jakob on January 12, 2011, 10:12:10 PM
Thanks for the offer though I don't think I'll be using clone troopers for my current series I'm posting. Though I could always creep them in another story depending on the reception this one gets.

Though I get the risks that you could have with relying on clone soldiers they don't seem too far out of place in the 40k setting. Everything in the imperium has the potential of back firing eventually. But thanks anyway
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Macabre on January 12, 2011, 11:07:43 PM
Afriel Strain refers to a collective of highly secret projects designed to clone the greatest heroes of the Imperium using forbidden sciences in order to use whatever unique talents that person possessed for the defence of mankind on regimental scale. Unfortunately, like most science in the 41st Millennium, it is far from perfect and every Afriel Strain soldier is vat-birthed albino (something believed to be a genetic corruption inherent due to the flawed science). They are without a doubt far superior in every aspect to any unaltered human (including trained Storm Troopers), however their unlucky flaw often means that cloned-regiments rarely survive long enough make a significant impact on any military scale beyond the first battle, or very rarely, a single campaign. This is theorised to be due to the very nature of clones, and that the warp will only allow one soul for one body (the original source), and that these clones are abomination's, born soulless (having neither a negative nor positive presence in the warp), which would also account for the discomfort and hatred they generate in 'normal' species. The most famous heroes of the Imperium suspected of being cloned are Lord Solar Macharius, Commissar Yarrick and Lord Inquisitor Kryptmann, and as far as the Inquisition know, these projects are still continuing.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Kaled on January 13, 2011, 07:28:59 AM
Oddly enough, I remember reading a GW published article about a stormtrooper who was a clone from a world that practiced it rather prolifically with decent results.
I always felt that guy had spent too much time watching Star Wars and not enough reading 40k background.  The Imperium's biggest resource is it's population - why waste time and energy cloning whole regiments when you can just pop to the nearest planet and draft a few million men instead?  Cloning is certainly done in the Imperium, and seems to work fine if you want a new limb or a mindless servitor, but otherwise the results seem to almost always be flawed in some way.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: MarcoSkoll on January 13, 2011, 07:57:34 AM
Why waste time and energy cloning whole regiments when you can just pop to the nearest planet and draft a few million men instead?
Exactly. The justification was "saved time/effort on training", but I think that's piffle. A clone doesn't just come out of the vats knowing how to walk, talk, not wet himself, etc - and while I'm not a parent, I can guess that teaching/learning those things takes a lot longer.

Tom, Dick or Harry from the nearest planet may not be as susceptible to military training, but you don't have to raise them to a young adult.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Necris on January 13, 2011, 11:03:23 AM
Don't the Ad Mech also use VAT Cloned to produce the gene seeds for new space marine chapters?

Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: psycho on January 13, 2011, 03:07:27 PM
watched Judge Dredd last night (awesome movie and nobodies gonna tell me otherwise lol)...and the janus project is exactly the Afriel Strain thing....DNA taken from the Council and then cloned to make the ultimate warriors (or Judges)....although Rico takes this a bit far and scraps the old DAN and uses his to make nice white mutated buggers....hmmm now that sounds like a backstory...Judge falls from favour having killed (apparently) a high member of the Council....lol

anywas hope that somehow helps the OP

kerby
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Kallidor on January 13, 2011, 04:12:16 PM
Don't the Ad Mech also use VAT Cloned to produce the gene seeds for new space marine chapters?

No Gene-Seed are cloned; it could be possible perhaps, never say never and all that, but not likely. The Mechanicus grow them in human test-slaves.

EDIT: Unless of course you meant, vat cloned humans but no, not in any of the background as far as I recall, they use proper humans although I remember reading somewhere that servitors can be vat grown but whether that constitutes as a clone or not I couldn't say, I've always considered it to be more like an artificial womb, growing the right kind of bodies to order rather than cloning.
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Kaled on January 13, 2011, 06:58:04 PM
I have a funny feeling that GW have a tendency to sometimes use vat-grown and cloned as if they mean the same thing...
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: jakob on January 13, 2011, 07:59:25 PM
At risk of exposing my sci-fi ignorance; what is the difference between VAT-grown and cloned exactly?

The comments posted so far are giving me some ideas for another story I could post. Insane clones, murderous soldiers intent on their extermination, cackling AdMech biologists in the shadows with their hunch-backed mutant helpers...
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: Macabre on January 13, 2011, 09:25:59 PM
I believe that vat-grown specimens are actually gestated direct from two zygotes donors (much in the same way as artificial insemination) and rather than developing inside a female womb, the foetus is grown via mechanical means (see; The Matrix), likewise, new body parts can also be vat-grown through a process probably similar to today's stem-cell technology. Of course this also allows for a degree of genetic manipulation to make such persons/limbs/organs more efficient/bigger/superior to those of natural birth (excluding the margin for naturally occurring mutation of course). Cloning is essentially what it says on the tin, replication of a pre-existing DNA sample. Also, as I recall, cloning is a banned science by edict of the Adeptus Mechanicus (although I cannot remember the source at this time, I believe it may have been from the BL novel Mechanicus). 
Title: Re: Human cloning in the Imperium, or Dolly the Stormtrooper.
Post by: coloneltea on January 14, 2011, 03:32:08 AM
The Krieg use one or the other (vat or cloning I'm not sure), perhaps a mixture of the two, as I recall.  With a special dispensation Adeptus Mechanicus of course.