The Conclave

The Ordos Majoris - Hobby, Painting and Modelling => The Dark Millennium => Topic started by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 09:17:27 AM

Title: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 09:17:27 AM
Has anyone seen the rumoured changes background in the new 40k rulebook, namely that the tau were seen as tge ultimate enemy of chaos by the emperor and that tge adeptus astrates defend them for that reason, what do people think of the proposed changes?
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 19, 2012, 09:32:35 AM
I have not seen that, where could I find it?

If what you have posted is true I must confess that I consider it completely ridiculous. The background has always been that the Emperor wanted humanity's salvation, as a psychic race which would be the bane of chaos. The tau remain a rather insignificant xenos species which are active in a backwater area. The Astartes defending a race which wasn't even present while the Emperor was still capable of giving orders, the Astartes finding them milennia later and then thinking: "Didn't the Emperor once tell our distant ancestors to protect these foul xenos?" makes no sense at all.

Such a command also undermines one of the core parts of the Imperium, its pure xenophobia.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
Check out warseer 40k rumours section, the sources are fairly reliable.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 09:59:41 AM
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?329875-Official-WarSeer-Warhammer-40-000-6th-Edition-discussion-thread/page15&p=6210204#post6210204

scroll down till you find it....
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 10:05:15 AM
Found it for you:

 "Allright, so this was just posted on Blood of Kittens, and there's so much here, I figured it needed to be shared. 

OMG finally finally my poor little site is fixed thanks for the patience everyone! So anyway it looks like I started some rumor spilling last week as everyone in the rumor mill decided to jump in the game. I hope what I am about to post is not already outdated, but with life and the server repair I haven’t have time to keep up.
Ok, let us get ready for some fun guys 6th is about two months away so let us set up some ground rules first off.
That leaked 6th edition pdf was and is still a complete fabrication.
40k 6th edition is going to be much closer to Fantasy 8th and 40k 2nd edition than anything else.
GW still has rumor lock down in place, so these leaks are for the most part things that have been seen before from previous editions of Games Workshop games. This is to protect sources from the long arm of GW.
Ok, with that said lets get to it.
Let us start with 6th edition fluff progression.
The Imperium is fracturing and the Space Marines are starting to separate themselves from the Lords of Terra. The heretical and xenophobia has gotten to a tipping point causing many chapters to take actions against the “best wishes” of many in the Imperium.
A discovery of galactic importance has happened.
At a time before right before the Horus Heresy the Emperor had intrusted Roboute Guilliman in the protection of one Xenos race that was completely immune the temptations of Chaos and would prove the ultimate key to the destruction of Chaos. The Horus Heresy ended such plans. Fast forward today with discovery of these lost correspondences, it is believed by the Ultramarines and others that the Tau are that lost race. So now instead of being charge with their destruction the Astartes are the Tau protectors.
Rules changes
Every unit gets a 6+ save vs. all Psychic Powers.
Random Charge Lengths are in
Pre-measuring is in.
Random Battle field effects are in.
All armies can purchase buildings for placement on the battlefield.
Psychic powers are selected during deployment. (except Grey Knights)
Deployment and Missions types have doubled.
Get ready for the Big one..
ALLIES ARE BACK IN
That is right allies are back in and this will be according to fluff and will have certain restrictions. So for instance Tyranids will not have any allies. Tau with all Space Marine Chapters. Necrons with Blood Angels. Imperial Guard with Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines with Demons. If it fits the fluff it will be done.
This is just to get you guys started."
Expect more to come out as we get closer to the impeding release of Warhammer 40k 6th edition.
Oh again forgot to mention in the CSM rumor post to add that Oblit options will be even more expansive with close combat load out available.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 19, 2012, 10:15:13 AM
Thank you for providing this information, digging to everything on there on my own would have been a monumental task.

So basically the Space Marines have become heretics and traitors, and not just a few but all of them because of some documents which anyone with even a slight degree of paranoia would probably condemn as forgeries. Especially Space Marines who have been psycho-indoctrinated to be utterly distrustful towards anything with possible xenos origins.

The problem with much of this is that the Space Marines are at least as xenophobic as the majority of the Imperium, this change makes them seem too much like rational do-gooders, which they aren't, they are the super-soldiers of an evil realm. They are not enlightened philosophers, they are the iron fist of the Imperium, tasked with routing out its worst enemies in an uncompromising way, they do not ally themselves with the impure or xenos, they ruthlessly crush all opposition. A space marine is not a policy-maker, he (or rather, it) is a soldier, created to kill and destroy.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
It would create huge conflict between the chapters not seen since horus, I also cannot see marines being xenos buddies, after all they see just touching a xenos item heresy, but this is gw
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 19, 2012, 10:37:45 AM
Basically it would place them outside the Imperium, those chapters would be considered traitors. They might be powerful but not more powerful than the Imperium which would still have the support of the Mechanicus and many of the chapters.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 19, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
It also begs the queston if they change the background how else might they?
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Holiad on June 19, 2012, 04:49:45 PM
Well, I officially move that the conclave declare such revisions to the 40k background heretical and therefore irrelevant to the game of inquisitor. Yes, seriously. Last I checked, space marines were if anything *more* xenophobic than the rest of the imperium, being indoctrinated to a much greater degree than ordinary human citizens who were, generally, human enough to be influenced. Space marines employing Kroot mercenaries, but a pdf or guard commander pressed for troops sometimes does. For that matter, the emperor himself was at the head of a galaxy-wide campaign of conquest that included the casual genocide of Xenos species which happened to be inconvenient.
Also, I would like to point out that a 'Xenos species completely immune to the temptations of chaos' seems closer to the tyranids(no human emotions) or necrons(able to completely seperate themselves from the warp) than the Tau who, while lacking a strong warp presence and therefore resistant, haven't come close to demonstrating "complete immunity".  Of those three, only the necrons were a significant presence in the galaxy at the time.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Charax on June 19, 2012, 05:41:45 PM
Well, it does explain those situations where the Ultramarines have been less than puritanical about their little blue brethren.

It does, however, somewhat weaken the primary threat of Chaos - the fact that anyone can succumb to it - when you have two whole species which is utterly immune (Tau and Necrons), as well as all the Grey Knights

Then you have the Eldar (all types) and Sororitas, who are extremely hard to turn

And Orks, who self-purge currupted members with extreme efficiency, same with Tyranids

You end up with Chaos going from "Threat that can pop up anywhere, from anyone" to "Well, keep an eye on the humans and maybe the Marines and you're pretty much ok"

It's lazy writing, it cheapens the primary antagonists of the setting and generally just makes things worse, although it's been heading that way for ages (see the current assumption that "Spyrer suits are Tau tech" Vs its more interesting predecessor "Spyrer suits are hand-crafted offworld with a combination of archeotech and have technology the Tau have never demonstrated or have been mentioned studying" - one is deeper, richer and more interesting than the other)
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 19, 2012, 05:42:35 PM
I fully support your motion. As I said before this is complete nonsense, and tau still have emotions which will mean that they influence the warp, and the warp can influence them. They are only a bit less psychic than humans, that is all. This is probably just a part of a plan to make the tau seem more important than they are so far.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Knobby2 on June 19, 2012, 05:46:58 PM
Personally im going too wait for the rulebook and read it cover too cover, Ive never been a fan of warseer's reliability, not slating the site, but it has shown how poor it is on several occasions

Lets just wait and see, however, if marines are defending the tau now, i bet the black templars are upset after the nimbosa crusade  ::)
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Koval on June 19, 2012, 06:20:49 PM
Let's wait for the book to come out before jumping to conclusions. At the moment this is all hearsay.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 19, 2012, 08:14:28 PM
Of course it's still hearsay, but the purpose of rumours is to get angry about them for a while until new rumours appear to get angry about. And with GW you never know...
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Inquisitor Goldeneye on June 19, 2012, 09:47:03 PM
If true, this sounds like a terrible idea. It's the kind of thing I might have thought was cool when I was 12, but then so does bigger jaws. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev96XA1ti-0&feature=player_detailpage)
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: MarcoSkoll on June 19, 2012, 11:27:32 PM
To be honest, I've been expecting to ignore most of the 6th Ed fluff changes since the earliest rumours, a decision rather heavily based on the fact that Mat Ward is going to have had a heavy hand in it (whether or not he's heading up the team, I can't remember what the rumours have said).

GW are just engaging in a load of counter intuitive retcons at the moment, largely caused by their desire to make things like seem like they're changing but not have the clock go a single second into the 42nd millennium.

I might - might - earmark 6th Ed as something to look up on eBay a few months down the line, but I'm certainly not buying it first-hand.
But I'm really more likely to buy a copy of 3rd Edition to replace my disintegrated one. It's more useful, given I never play 40k any more anyway and it's the fluff that actually syncs up with Inquisitor's release, and actually includes all kinds of interesting stuff that's seldom been republished.

Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Koval on June 20, 2012, 06:32:29 AM
largely caused by their desire to make things like seem like they're changing but not have the clock go a single second into the 42nd millennium.
It's been pushed quite a way into the 42nd before. Several times, in fact.

Unless they're making it so that Medusa V never happened and the Cain Archive was never edited by Amberley...
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: MarcoSkoll on June 20, 2012, 07:07:54 AM
BL stuff like the Cain novels is a slightly different matter from the continuity presented in the rulebook/codices.

And I'm fairly sure Medusa has generally been retconned out - a quick skim of the 5th Ed rulebook finds no mention of it. It wouldn't be without precedent, given the timeline around the Storm of Chaos in WHFB happened to creep back to the point that it was once again a Sword of Damocles.

In any case, while it's one thing to set a single campaign or the occasional book in M42, the problem is that doing that for the whole timeline would mean you had to start to explain things like what's happened with Hive Fleet Leviathan and 13th Black Crusade - these things won't nicely decide to take a timeout for however many years. Abaddon can't keep trying to defeat Cadia for a decade without something happening.

They really don't want to advance certain parts of the timeline (they've been not doing this for a good many years now) - so they're more than a bit stuck as to trying to advance other parts. As such, I rather doubt 6th edition will move into M42. I'd like to be proven wrong (not that I think it will redeem the quality I'm expecting), but I don't think I will be.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 20, 2012, 07:55:14 AM
I also presume that they won't advance much further, unless they simply say that Leviathan has somehow been stopped for now(of course it can resurface any moment) and that the 13th black crusade still has to happen or were driven back by heroic space marines. They could also ignore it completely. I just hope that they will advance slightly but more importantly, that they keep the style intact.(Not that they will do this)
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 20, 2012, 09:06:44 AM
This is gw who created trazyn the infinite, the character with the worst background I have ever read!
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: DapperAnarchist on June 20, 2012, 10:16:19 AM
Oddly, I love Trazyn. He's absurd, impossible, ridiculous - but at least he's funny and interesting! Unlike stuff from a couple years earlier which was absurd, impossible, ridiculous, and dull. Trazyn is an impossibly powerful character - who doesn't seem to understand how powerful he is, like a senile old wizard who thinks everyone is his friend, and are just playing pranks. And he sends love notes to pretty Inquisitors! That's gotta be worth something.

The good thing about Trazyn is he gives your army a reason to fight. He's always trying to steal stuff, so you have good reason to fight him. The worst things, for me, are the ones that close off options - so the Marines being the defenders of the Tau - so why is my Chapter fighting them? or "all Marines want to be Ultramarines". Yeah? What about my Imperial Fists or Blood Angels or Raven Guard or Sallies or etc... Trazyn fits the EYHBTIAL rule, in that it makes things more mysterious, less clear. Much of Mat Ward's stuff has tried to make things simpler, more black and white, and that's a bad thing.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: 0604854 on June 20, 2012, 11:33:41 AM
I just find him to far fetched and radiculous, if you want somerhing funny go for orks, there has also been some other dodgey fluff, what fo you think has been gws worst fluff gaff
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Akuro Adenn on June 21, 2012, 07:27:56 AM
I don't put much credence to the idea that they'll make the imperium appear to be any weaker. More horrible? Maybe. As to the Tau bit, it would invalidate so much of their fluff it isn't funny.

And, as always, we can just ignore the crap. Especially if 6E tanks.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Draco Ferox on June 24, 2012, 12:18:06 PM
Just going to throw my £0.02 in here, for what little it's worth.

I would much prefer it if games workshop had someone like John Blanche illustrate the entire book, or approve the artwork that goes into it, whilst someone like Phil Kelly or Jervis Johnson writes the background, and the rules are worked on with extensive playtesting by both GW staff and the beardiest, most dishonourable scum ever to play warhammer, to iron out the kinks. Whilst this is going on, He Who Must Not Be Named can be kept as far away from everything as possible, and some of the ex-staff drafted back in to correct everything that The Balance Mutilator has written.

Background expansions, such as pieces about the demiurg or the squats, would boost white dwarf sales, and concreting everything down with a free poster of the galaxy with each rulebook would help.

Leaving stuff for people to decide for themselves, such as the dragon of mars (recently ruined) was one of the things that made 40k interesting, and I am loath to see GW simply explicitly state everything for the sake of the younger fans.

All of that said, if the new rulebook is awful, EYHBTIAL, even the official stuff.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: MarcoSkoll on June 25, 2012, 12:45:46 AM
I imagine that the art is all approved by JB, given he's the Art Director. I think his realm of influence even dictates what passes muster in FFG's books.

I don't however feel he should illustrate the whole book. Partly because not everyone likes his work (it's hard to have never seen a post slagging his work off on one forum or another) so it would kick up some hefty disagreement from a fair portion of the masses, but mostly because it would mean ruling out the work of so many other fantastic illustrators.

I agree with most of the rest of your wishlist though. But the chances it's true are... slim.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 25, 2012, 08:47:09 AM
I fully agree with those wishes except the John Blanche part, I do like his work, but an entire rulebook filled with them would be a bit monotonous, in such a work I think that it would be better to have more veriety in artstyles.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Koval on June 25, 2012, 06:14:37 PM
I'll be honest, I'm not the hugest fan of Blanche art, though I can understand why people like his work. I prefer the sorts of styles you tend to see in the 40KRP books, where you can actually make out the details.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Glorioski on June 26, 2012, 09:51:54 PM
Looks like this rumour might have something to it. This is the allies chart for 6th ed

(http://i.imgur.com/pGu40.jpg)

Tau and marines are listed as brothers in arms.

To be honest I quite like a lot of the rules changes rumoured in sixth but this fluff change sounds a bit awkward.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Koval on June 26, 2012, 10:15:57 PM
My interpretation of that is similar to how the Tau/Imperium relationship's generally been presented for a long time -- sure, the Imperium and the Tau may not exactly get along a great deal (to put it lightly) but they'll put that to one side when there's something bigger to deal with. This has more or less been the case since the Tau were introduced.
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Inquisitor Goldeneye on June 26, 2012, 10:22:55 PM
Yes, these background changes are 'a bit awkward' all right.

In terms of abrupt tonal shifts it would be like releasing a cut of 'Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang' which included a Jhonn Woo-esque gun fight, complete with screaming rock sound-track and loads of 'bullet-time' effects.

Are we really beeing asked to accept a world where the Black Templars, one of, if not the most fanatically zealous of all the Space marine chapters, are more kindly desposed towards the Craftworld Eldar (allies of convenience, according to the above chart) than they are towards the Sisters of Battle (desperate allies)?

In the immortal words of one Charles Brown; "Good grief!"
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Charax on June 27, 2012, 07:07:18 AM
I really think too many people are reading too much into the allies matrix, especially in terms of converting game mechanics into background.

Black Templars being Desperate Allies with Battle Sisters basically means that if they're deployed very close to each other, there's a chance of units not doing anything for a turn - probably because they're having some intense ideological discussion about the true nature of the Emperor's Divinity. the Templars, being more fanatical than most chapters, are more likely to get into such an argument in the middle of battle than other chapters, who are Allies of Convenience. It's not that they're more friendly with the Eldar, it's more that they're not likely to have these arguments with the Eldar, because both sides know that as soon as the common enemy is dealt with, the Black Templars are going to start firing at their sometime-allies.

The allies matrix is just a set of game mechanics, it's not a political map of the 41st millennium
Title: Re: new 40k book rumoured changes in background
Post by: Dolnikan on June 27, 2012, 08:02:13 AM
But even then that matrix is immensely strange, punishing some rather likely alliances while encouraging some very strange ones. Of course imperials can ally with xenos when they are forced to, but they would always expect to be attacked in the back by them, and the aliens also have no reason at all to trust them.

Of course it just is a game mechanic but I think that it is a bad one, it encourages strange alliances. Either leave it out completely and say that players should work it out on their own(nearly every possible alliance can be explained in some way by the players anyways) or ensure that it makes sense. The 41st milennium is no trusting place, and especially another species can never be trusted even remotely.