The Conclave

The Ordos Majoris - Hobby, Painting and Modelling => Inquisitor Game Discussion => Topic started by: mirryhalo on April 07, 2013, 07:46:10 PM

Title: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 07, 2013, 07:46:10 PM
So you may or may not have seen my post (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2322.0) on the modelling threads but I've basically got the idea of a vampire bounty hunter, one of the last vampires in the universe I'm still not too sure on all of the story how he came about, what his aim is etc. but I thought I should put up my rules to see what people think about them.

Dragos Danesti "The Count"

I took the statlines from warhammer of an Empire General and a Vampire Lord and ran them against each other working out the percentage differences of each stat then I applied these to the random rogue trader stats while leaving the Wp, Sg and Nv as being a Vampire wouldn't affect those stats, but here they are:

 WS  BS    S    T    I    Wp  Sg   Nv  Ld   Spd
  98   83   90  76  99  90  77   87  98     6

Equipment: Hunting RIfle + range finder - 1 reload, Web Pistol - 2 reloads, Blooddrinker (magic sword, heirloom of vampire counts' days,     after armour add d6 to injury and - d2 to the count's injury value) carapace on groin and right arm, 3 everywhere else, 0 on head

Special Abilities: Suck Blood (same as vampirism but gives regenerate afterwards), Force of Will, Lightening Reflexes, 'The Light!' (flash grenades, photon flares etc. count as frag grenades)

Psychic Abilities:
Gaze of Death
Raise Dead; Difficulty 10 The count Raises d2 zombies up to 10 yards away

Zombies

WS  BS    S    T    I    Wp  Sg   Nv   Ld    Spd
40    0    62  43  23   0     0   N/A   0      2

Equipment: Clawing hands (reach:1 Dmg:d6+2)

Special Abilities: Fearsome, Zombie Shuffle (can never:evade,sprint,dodge,parry), Brain Dead (count as Invulnerable daemon power)

With The Count in his gang I was going to have a kind of butler figure called Mr. White who was going to be the person who people met up with to arrange hits etc. but I'm unsure of that now and I may just have him with a couple of servitors (always reminded me of kind of futuristic igors) or maybe a thrall so no rules for him/them at the mo. But there it is the rules for my Vampire Bounty Hunter and His Zombies C+C very welcome!
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 07, 2013, 07:55:42 PM
... erm. Could you sort the formatting out please?

That's just unreadable like that.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 07, 2013, 08:03:42 PM
Yeah sorry don't know how that happened it was all nice and laid out like that when I posted it
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Adlan on April 07, 2013, 09:09:13 PM
My first inquisitor character ended up being a vampire with very high stats too. There was quite a lot of stuff on vampires, and a whole Ordo dedicated to wiping them out, but I'm not sure if any of it survived from the older versions of the conclave.

I'm not sure the concept works. I'd rather see his terran origin be one of many stories he puts out about his past and nature. Is he possed by a demon? An Alien Parasite? Is he a psycher with very strange abilities, just an odd mutant or what?

And if he really were one of the few remaining vampires from terra, He's millennia old and he's just a bounty hunter? Surely his knowledge and wisdom have made him immensely powerful and rich? More suited for a Villainous Big Bad for a campaign than a pc.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 07, 2013, 09:54:27 PM
Yeah I see what you're saying but I was thinking that he was very well established in the imperium but due to witch hunters or a certain witch hunter he had to disappear and that he did but he had to start out again somewhere and as he's very good at killing things and as it gives him a kind of licence to kill things (he can then suck a little blood from) it's all the better, that was my way of thinking any way
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 08, 2013, 04:46:35 PM
The last time I tackled vampires, they ended up being the still-living "victims" of a bacterial infection devised, ultimately, by Nurgle (but hijacked by the other three). One ended up in direct sunlight just so I could tackle that part of vampire lore; for what it's worth, he "sparkled" -- or he did if you replace "sparkle" with "develop a few thousand final-stage terminal cancers in the space of thirty seconds and disintegrate into a fleshy cancerous puddle". (It didn't help that he was shirtless at the time.)

As for the count, we'd need some proper background before we can really critique him properly, but as far as the game stats are concerned, he's disgustingly powerful -- all those 90s will need a fair bit of justifying. (And "he's ancient" isn't really much of an excuse in and of itself, considering that extreme age also opens up the possibility of him being physically and/or mentally decrepit.)

For that matter, Blooddrinker sounds like an attempt to do a daemon weapon without any drawbacks -- that will also require some justifying. So I look forward to seeing what happens here.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 08, 2013, 06:41:57 PM
as far as the game stats are concerned, he's disgustingly powerful -- all those 90s will need a fair bit of justifying.
More importantly, in my opinion at least, all those 90s will make him really boring to play and to play against.

Thus I'd suggest giving him more 'normal' human stats with maybe either WS & BS in the high 70s and the other in the high 60s, an above average Strength and Toughness (say in the mid 70s), drop his Initiative a little (maybe low 80s) and knock 5 to 15 points off each of his mental stats.  I'd then give him a daemonic ability such as Invulnerable or Impervious to represent his otherworldly nature.

Also, to save on dice rolls I'd have the sword add D6 to injury total, and half the amount (rounding up) to the Count's injury.

Finally, my gut feeling is that the difficulty on the Raise the Dead power is too low.  With a Wp that high (even if you do lower it a bit) and up to six actions per turn, the enemy is likely to be quickly overwhelmed by hordes of zombies.

Otherwise I think he has the potential to be a really good character.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: greenstuff_gav on April 08, 2013, 07:32:36 PM
here's Charax's Zombie Rules which i run for my zombies; they're proper hard 'n' scary :)

Neurone Plague Victim:
Ws: -2D6
Bs: -3D10
S: +2D10
T:+2D10
I: -3D10
Wp/Sg/Nv/Ld: 0
Abilities:
Braindead, Zombie Shuffle!, Infect, True Grit.
Mutations:
Bestial Face, Rotting Flesh, Dead Meat, Enhanced Senses

Braindead:
Force of Will and Nerves of Steel. Immune to psychic powers that allow Wp tests to be taken. Neurone Plague victims lose the ability to use any Bionics or Implants they may have, and are immune to Toxins or Combat stimms

Zombie Shuffle!:
As per two Atrophied Legs
Atrophied: One or more of the alienís limbs is withered and feeble, with little or no
muscle and power. A single atrophied leg reduces all of the characterís Movement rates,
except crawling, by -1 yard and means the character cannot sprint. If both legs are atrophied the character is affected as for one leg. In addition, they count moving faster than a walk as a risky Action and if they fumble their action roll, will fall over and spend the rest of the turn prone.

Infect:
Any character wounded by the victim's Bestial Face attack must take a Toughness test at -20% or become infected. If they pass by a margin of less than 30 they must roll again at the start of every turn until they pass by 30 or more (50 or more, including the -20% modifier)
The Neurone Plague, Zombie Plague or Rage reduces all characteristics by 2D10 every turn until the character dies. D3 turns later they rise as a Neurone Plague Victim, with characteristics based on their original profiles

Bestial Face;
[The Zombie] may make an additional bite attack in close combat in addition to those it would normally make. This has a reach of 0, does D6+Strength bonus damage, and cannot be used to parry. In addition the alien now counts as having the Fearsome ability

Rotting Flesh:
This horrid mutation means that the alienís skin is constantly dying and sloughing off, exposing fat and muscle. This disfigurement gives off a disgusting stench and leaves them susceptible to injury as even glancing hits can rip off hunks of flesh. The character reduces their base injury value by -1 and they can be smelt by other characters on a successful Awareness test up to 10 yards away and will be smelt automatically within 5 yards.

Dead Meat:
Zombies are unnaturally tough, and notoriously hard to kill. Double the Victim's Base Injury Value for all hits against any location other than the head.
In addition, Victims do not show up on Bioscanners, Infrascopes or most types of Auspex due to their body temperature being the same as the ambient conditions.
Neurone Plague Victims suffer no additional damage from Location Injury, or from Bleeding.

Enhanced senses:
The alien has preternaturally sensitive sensory organs; eyes that can sense heat or radiation, ears that are tuned to hypersonic vibrations or olfactory senses that can discern the preyís scent from leagues away. It can track its prey by the most minute traces in the wind or on the ground. To represent this, the alien may add +30% to
its Initiative characteristic when testing for awareness.

The Plague Zombie rules / profiles were created by Charax & used with permission
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 08, 2013, 07:48:14 PM
ok well I've got an idea brewing for his nemesis that nicely explains his current situation. The inquisitor Aldus Hale, not sure what ordo he'd be from, but overview is he was investigating on the system Dragos was a powerful member of and after some unique occurrences, dead not always resting easy, giant bats, people turning up with a couple of holes in their necks (you know usual vampire behaviour) Hale did a bit of research into old books archives etc. and discovered what vampires were and set it his mission to purge the universe completely from all undead becoming the inquisition's first vampire hunter. After doing more probing Hale found out Dragos was one of these night walkers and as vampires would of course be abominations against the emperor Hale setes out to turn him into dust, literally. He started to undermine and destroy his credibility and well established extravagant life he had made for himself as well as turning the populace against him. Being unable to combat Hale at that time Dragos had to flee his system with as only a few possessions (angry mob with torches and pitchforks kind of affair). He had to find business as a bounty hunter and is slowly biding his time, building up information on Hale until he's in a strong enough position to strike and claim back what is his. That's kind of the basic basis of his back story.

With the stat line being so high I mean it's because he's a vampire they are immensely powerful and I kind of thought he'd be more of a one man band, just him and a few zombies.

Blooddrinker the sword was supposed to be based on the idea of the magic weapons from WFB because they are essentially daemon weapons but they don't have the problems with battling a source of evil power as the magic is bound into the weapon for good to stay there I was kind of going of the it's an old family heirloom sword so it'd be like its from that era. Also the idea about D6 to injury total and receive half makes more sense

In respect to the Raise dead power my basic idea was that he was only allowed to have two zombies with him at one time not summon a whole undead horde that would be a tad excessive and because vampires are magical creatures who tend to raise zombies the whole time I didn't think it'd be too tricky for him. Actually just had a brainwave the difficulty could start on 15 and gain another 5 for each zombie on the table so in that respect he could have some back up but I don't really think he needs it I thought 2 was enough

Thought of some extra weaknesses for him that may counteract his strengths vampires are supposed to die with a steak/similar pointy stick through the heart so maybe hits to the chest (with weapons like a crossbow or something similar, maybe Hale and his retinue have special Vampire steaks to take them out with) count as double damage, as the invulnerable rule, which would greatly counteract his high toughness. Or alternatively I could lower his toughness to a 'high average' 60 or so and give him a kind of Invulnerable special rule so half damage to all body locations but make it double when hit in the chest with particular weapons like the crossbows steaks etc?

So his warband would essentially be him and two zombies at a time but it would start off as just him every time unless I lowered his stats and gave him someone to work with but I thought that wouldn't really be in with the sort of guy he is. So with that in respect what do you thing is he still too overpowered if it's just him there rather than with a full warband?

P.S. I think I may write up some rules for Hale and his retinue   
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 08, 2013, 07:58:41 PM
thanks for those rules gav I think I may work them into my Zombie rules, I wanted them to be still your classic zombies but with a bit more of a playable and useful aspect for my vampire as he'll be by himself.

I think I'll replace my brain dead with your one and you reminded me that I forgot to put all that stuff about Force of Will and Nerves of Steel and being Immune to psychic powers to do with Wp but yeah I think I'll factor in those.

I was contemplating the whole once bitten you're infected thing but I thought those kind of zombie are more virusey ones and the ones that a vampire would raise would be more just kind of animated corpses, just my reasoning, I also thought it would be a bit unfair to be running around with a vampire like this who can summon minions who could potentially turn an opponents entire warband into brain dead slaves within a short matter of time

The rotting flesh I think is also interesting but I may rework it a little so that as it is so disgusting unless a person has force of will then the suffer a -5% modifier in combat because the sight/stench is so repulsive.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 08, 2013, 08:12:45 PM
With the stat line being so high I mean it's because he's a vampire they are immensely powerful and I kind of thought he'd be more of a one man band, just him and a few zombies.
Bear in mind that most warbands are only three members anyway, and often one of those will be a character who's not that capable when it comes to combat, so in that regard your warband is not really going to be outnumbered.  Also, remember the point I made about him being a character whose stats are so high he's no fun to play or play against - if his stats are so high then there's not  much fun in facing him because you can almost guarantee that every time he takes a characteristic test he will pass and whoever he shoots or swings a sword at will get hit.  Plus, having a warband with only one real character, even if he is accompanied by a couple of mindless drones, can be another recipe for a dull fun game as it only takes one lucky hit and he's out of action.  Even if he's only stunned for D3 turns, those are turns that aren't going to be much fun to play.

Thus I would re-consider what other characters you could use with him - maybe a Renfield-type servant, cultists or anyone else who might have been drawn into his circle.  Then in some games you could just use him and his zombies, but you'd have options you could bring for use in different types of scenario.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 08, 2013, 09:19:02 PM
Thought of some extra weaknesses for him that may counteract his strengths vampires are supposed to die with a steak/similar pointy stick through the heart
Deconstructed by Dan Shive. (http://www.egscomics.com/sketchbook/?date=2011-12-21)

In any event, being impaled through the heart by just about anything will kill most creatures, whether they're vampires* or not. ::)

Quote
Blooddrinker the sword was supposed to be based on the idea of the magic weapons from WFB because they are essentially daemon weapons but they don't have the problems with battling a source of evil power as the magic is bound into the weapon for good to stay there I was kind of going of the it's an old family heirloom sword so it'd be like its from that era.
This doesn't sit right with me, because "magic weapons" don't really exist in 40K (at least, not in the way you describe). As such, the only way I can imagine it working without being a daemonic or Chaos weapon is if it's a very specialised type of psychic conduit for a power that he himself possesses (and which he would therefore be able to use, to a much lesser degree, without the sword).


*I'm pretty sure the staking thing happened when they were down, anyway, to stop them from getting back up. In some versions of vampire lore, it's done through the mouth or stomach instead; originally, it happened while they were still corpses, to stop them from becoming vampires in the first place.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 08, 2013, 10:45:46 PM
Also, remember the point I made about him being a character whose stats are so high he's no fun to play or play against - if his stats are so high then there's not  much fun in facing him because you can almost guarantee that every time he takes a characteristic test he will pass and whoever he shoots or swings a sword at will get hit.  Plus, having a warband with only one real character, even if he is accompanied by a couple of mindless drones, can be another recipe for a dull fun game as it only takes one lucky hit and he's out of action.  Even if he's only stunned for D3 turns, those are turns that aren't going to be much fun to play.

Thus I would re-consider what other characters you could use with him - maybe a Renfield-type servant, cultists or anyone else who might have been drawn into his circle.  Then in some games you could just use him and his zombies, but you'd have options you could bring for use in different types of scenario.

Yeah I suppose that does make sense I will probably dum his stats down a bit then but the only thing is I'm unsure of what sort of person would go with him, maybe a thrall when he needs one or possibly an Igor kind of thing I'll have to mull it over and think of a model to represent him/her/it

@Koval
in regard to the steak my idea would be that it was a weakness so that is why it would deal double damage it would damage most people but it would do significantly more damage to him than relative damage to other parts of his body

and the magic sword idea was that you wouldn't find anything like it in the 41st millennium it is unique my idea of it any way
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 09, 2013, 06:31:31 AM
@Koval
in regard to the steak my idea would be that it was a weakness so that is why it would deal double damage it would damage most people but it would do significantly more damage to him than relative damage to other parts of his body
A steak is something you eat. :P

And again, I don't exactly see why specific things going through his heart would do more damage than others -- it'll do damage anyway and I already explained where the stake-through-the-heart thing comes from. Sometimes it would even be something sharp and metallic instead.

Quote
and the magic sword idea was that you wouldn't find anything like it in the 41st millennium
Yes, that's exactly why I'm trying to think of ways that you could make it work without clashing with 40K background.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 09, 2013, 06:58:25 AM
And again, I don't exactly see why specific things going through his heart would do more damage than others -- it'll do damage anyway and I already explained where the stake-through-the-heart thing comes from. Sometimes it would even be something sharp and metallic instead.
While all this is true, the common mythology of vampires is that a wooden stake to the heart is the way to dispatch them, and I see no reason to throw away that mythology when creating a character that is based on the concept of what if a vampire based on that mythology survived through to the 41st millenium.

Quote
Yes, that's exactly why I'm trying to think of ways that you could make it work without clashing with 40K background.
I don't have a problem with it being referred to as a 'magic' sword - depending on his age, the character may well have lived much of his life during a time where magic was thought to be real so that's how he refers to his sword. In reality the weapon may be a type of daemon weapon or force weapon or something, but the character doesn't have to know that - and we don't really need to know it in order to play or to play against the character.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: greenstuff_gav on April 09, 2013, 10:46:07 AM
wasn't there a film / series where a stake through the heart simply rendered a vampire immobile?
maybe in addition to the damage, a hit to the chest with any weapon likely to stay there (stake, knife, crossbow bolt) simply 1/2 his speed?
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 09, 2013, 11:49:26 AM
What Kaled said is pretty much what I've been trying to say so thanks for explaining it more clearly.

With the weapon staying there halving his speed I think is a good idea but I think he should be able to spend an action taking it out maybe a strength test with some modifiers?
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 09, 2013, 01:08:14 PM
On the topic of crossbows I put together some rough ideas for Inquisitor Hale in which I made up some rules for a pretty nasty crossbow, probably called something that has redemption or purging in it. I thought that the rules for the crossbow in the rule book would be for the kind of wooden medieval crossbow rather than a hightech one so I thought I'd redo them a little. This one's also a little special as firstly it's hand made for Hale so I gave it an accuracy modifier just to show it fits with him perfectly etc. and I also made it more than one shot not an automatic monster like Van Helsing's  but one that would have a few bolts in the chamber so he wouldn't have to keep putting a new one in and an easier drawback method, I was kinda thinking it'd look a little like this:
(http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i395/mirryhalo/xbow_01-1.jpg)

Maybe with a fancy reflex sight or something

Here are the rules:
Type     Range     Firing Mode     Accuracy     Damage     Shots     Reload     Weight
Basic        F            single              +5           D10+2         5            1            25

I was also thinking about anti-vampire weapons and I thought maybe some bullets that have a capsule of holy water in them that bursts in impact so I was thinking like normal damage but if it goes through the armour then it causes another D6 damage, only thing is I don't want to make his opposition so kitted out with vampire hunting equipment that The Count won't stand a chance...

Also what do you thing would be more vampire hunter a bastard sword or a great hammer?
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 09, 2013, 06:23:13 PM
While all this is true, the common mythology of vampires is that a wooden stake to the heart is the way to dispatch them, and I see no reason to throw away that mythology when creating a character that is based on the concept of what if a vampire based on that mythology survived through to the 41st millenium.
While I'm not disputing what "common mythology" is, I do find the Flanderisation of the actual mythology rather worrying -- IMO, the original stuff is more interesting, because we get to see where the ideas came from in the first place

However, if we're looking to retain the "common mythology" feel, without going into all the strangeness that results from deconstructing Pop Culture Vampires, consider power-stakes, Condemnor boltguns, and the fancy crossbows used by the Ordo Hereticus (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crossbow) in order to update the idea to match the current setting. All we'd have to do then is adopt some of the properties of Anti-Daemonic ammunition (or Wych-bolts/psybolts) from Marco's RIA.

That way, the Count can still be a vampire, and laugh at mere mortal weapons, without having to be suddenly undone the instant someone pokes him with a sharp bit of wood or eats a piece of garlic bread. :P
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 09, 2013, 06:52:56 PM
IMO, the original stuff is more interesting, because we get to see where the ideas came from in the first place
I don't know that I'd go so far as to say 'more interesting', both have their place, but taking from different aspects of the mythology (looking at its origins and how it's evolved to the modern day) can definitely be a good way to create a character. After all, if you went too far to the extreme of taking inspiration from where the myths come from you'd end up with a character who's not a vampire, so everyone is going to be looking at some stage of the mythology's evolution and it just depends on the individual as to which aspects interest them the most.

As for the crossbow - I don't think you need both the accuracy bonus and range band F. F is a very accurate range so I'd stick with one or the other. Also, if the reload represents a character removing a magazine of 5 shots and inserting another then reload 2 would be more appropriate. Or you could have it so that each reload action is to load one bolt and it can hold a maximum of 5.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 09, 2013, 09:31:53 PM
Because I totally forgot to respond to this earlier:

Quote
In reality the weapon may be a type of daemon weapon or force weapon or something, but the character doesn't have to know that - and we don't really need to know it in order to play or to play against the character.
This is a fair point, but at the same time someone (in this case me, but it's not specific to this particular situation) will inevitably ask "okay, so what is it really?" -- in which case, we and our characters can think it's a "magic" weapon, but having a good answer to that question will mean that Mirry's really thought the character through. Extra layers of detail behind the scenes are (at least IMO) important and cool.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 09, 2013, 10:36:30 PM
In that case you'll probably be very disappointed with several of my characters. I like leaving some things a mystery, and while I might have some ideas about the true answer, sometimes I just like to leave it undefined as a potential plot hook that I might revisit later. For me, knowing the solution to the mystery makes it less interesting - in fact it's no longer a mystery, just a secret that I'm not telling.

So, if you were to ask me "okay, so what is it really?" about these types of things with my characters, don't be surprised if I say I don't know or aren't telling and leave you to speculate instead. I realise that approach doesn't work for everyone, but for me it's right.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 09, 2013, 10:50:28 PM
Okay so in response to Koval I suppose you could say it is a 'magic weapon' that upon it's creation was imbued with the essence of a magical entity in a similar way to how daemon weapons are created nowadays (41st millenium) but in a more skilful way which prevents the constant battle of wills between the trapped essence and the user, Sound any better? Although as Kaled says I quite like the idea of it being an ancient mysterious weapon that has been passed down throughout his blood line with origins relatively unknown, perhaps a mini campaign could be the vampire finding out the origin off the blade?

and redone stats for the crossbow:
Type     Range     Firing Mode     Accuracy     Damage     Shots     Reload     Weight
Basic        F            single                -            D10+2         5            2            25

However, if we're looking to retain the "common mythology" feel, without going into all the strangeness that results from deconstructing Pop Culture Vampires, consider power-stakes, Condemnor boltguns, and the fancy crossbows used by the Ordo Hereticus (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crossbow) in order to update the idea to match the current setting. All we'd have to do then is adopt some of the properties of Anti-Daemonic ammunition (or Wych-bolts/psybolts) from Marco's RIA.

That way, the Count can still be a vampire, and laugh at mere mortal weapons, without having to be suddenly undone the instant someone pokes him with a sharp bit of wood or eats a piece of garlic bread. :P

In respect to this that is what I was thinking of the modified invulnerable rules so that specific weapons for hunting vampires, crossbows, stakes etc. when striking the chest would do the normal/double damage. I was also thinking of UV ammunition (http://underworld.wikia.com/wiki/Ultraviolet_ammunition) (like in the underworld series) or rounds that contain capsules of holy water that explode on impact that you can use in solid round weapons which have a similar effect to the hellfire shotgun ammunition when used on vampires 
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 10, 2013, 12:24:49 AM
I've revised the rules for both The Count and his zombies

The Count

WS  BS    S    T    I    Wp  Sg  Nv  Ld   Spd
 80  72   76  68  84  78  77  87  89     5

Equipment: Hunting RIfle + range finder - 1 reload, Web Pistol - 2 reloads, Blooddrinker (magic sword, heirloom of vampire counts' days,     after armour add d6 to injury and - Half of the result, rounding up to the count's injury value) carapace on groin and right arm, 3 everywhere else, 0 on head

Special Abilities: Suck Blood (same as vampirism but gives regenerate afterwards), Force of Will, Lightening Reflexes, 'The Light!' (flash grenades, photon flares etc. count as frag grenades UV weapons do extra damage), Vampire Fortitude (all damage, after armour, is halved unless it is in the chest with an anti-vampire weapon, ones that get stuck crossbow bolt etc. half speed and require a strength test at -10 for each injury level of the chest to remove to regin normal speed)

Psychic Abilities:
Gaze of Death
Raise Dead; Difficulty 10 The count Raises d2 zombies up to 10 yards away

Zombies

WS  BS    S    T    I    Wp  Sg   Nv   Ld    Spd
40    0    62  43  23   0     0   N/A   0      2

Equipment: Clawing hands (reach:1 Dmg:d6+2)

Special Abilities: Fearsome, Zombie Shuffle (can never:evade,sprint,dodge,parry), Brain Dead (1/2 damage to all locations except head which takes double), force of will, nerves of steel, immune to toxins and psychic powers that require them to take Wp tests

I also made some rules and a bit of back story for his thrall Pelski that accompanies him.

Pelski was a well known and successful 'acquirer' of items he could get you most things you asked for ,within his current star system, fortune seemed to shine on him and he was running a lucrative business on the goods he managed to steal. Until one fateful day an Inquisitor approached him saying his name was Hale and he came with a very strange request, instead of wanting to get something 'acquired' for him he asked Pelski to break into the mansion of Lord Dragos Danesti and take a film of what he found exploring all rooms of the house, then bring it back to Hale. Usually this wasn't Pelski's area of works he was more of a sneak in and out no more than was needed kind of man but the money was too good to pass up on so he went to investigate. It wasn't too hard to sneak into the establishment but once inside he was soon confronted by Dragos who questioned him and after realising what it would mean were the man to return to the Inquisitor he turned him into his thrall binding him to his service until either one of them should die.

WS  BS    S    T    I    Wp  Sg   Nv   Ld  Spd
58   56   52  55  60   67  64   70  56    4

Equipment: Autogun - one reload, Knife, Flak on all locations except head, mesh on groin

Special Abilities: Knife Fighter, Catfall, Thrall (If the count goes out of action roll D100 80+ Pelski is stunned roll each turn until not if stunned for 3 turns in a row then he must pass willpower test of go out of action), The Light!

I hope that these are more useable and that The Count isn't too OP anymore
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 10, 2013, 06:56:26 AM
In that case you'll probably be very disappointed with several of my characters.
[...]
I realise that approach doesn't work for everyone, but for me it's right.
Without wishing to come across as hostile or inflammatory, that's unfortunately rather likely, but that's largely because I dislike not knowing things (in general; this doesn't relate solely to Inquisitor or to this forum). Sure, a lot of things about a lot of characters may be a grand irrelevance most of the time, but I just think it's cool that those things are there.

Anyway, onto the Count; I must say he looks a lot more sensible, but there are a couple of things that stand out a bit.
--The hunting rifle: As it's already range G, does it need a rangefinder? If so, are you using the rulebook version or the RIA version?
--The sword: Call me a really pernickety so-and-so but the wording looks a bit off, because it actually reads as though you're adding minus one-half of an Injury point to the Count's Injury Total. "Half of the result, rounding up/down" (delete as appropriate) would work better. :P
--"The Light!": Define the "extra damage" from a UV weapon?
--Vampire Fortitude: Is a really powerful double-edged sword. I'd be tempted to replace this one with the following:

Vampire Fortitude:
The character is a being of blood and darkness, and can shrug off the most terrible attacks from mortal weapons. Like all creatures of his ilk, however, he has his weaknesses and vulnerabilities...
The Count gains +1 BIV against all attacks. However, blessed and/or holy weapons, and weapons created specifically to deal with vampires, negate this property. Furthermore, such weapons roll one extra die for damage, discarding the die with the lowest result. In addition, the Count suffers -1 Speed should such a weapon inflict more than one level of Injury to the Count's chest.


It's ultimately your call, but what I cooked up has less to keep track of, while keeping anti-vampire stuff suitably lethal.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 10, 2013, 01:12:12 PM
Anyway, onto the Count; I must say he looks a lot more sensible, but there are a couple of things that stand out a bit.
--The hunting rifle: As it's already range G, does it need a rangefinder? If so, are you using the rulebook version or the RIA version?
--The sword: Call me a really pernickety so-and-so but the wording looks a bit off, because it actually reads as though you're adding minus one-half of an Injury point to the Count's Injury Total. "Half of the result, rounding up/down" (delete as appropriate) would work better. :P
--"The Light!": Define the "extra damage" from a UV weapon?
--Vampire Fortitude: Is a really powerful double-edged sword. I'd be tempted to replace this one with the following:

Vampire Fortitude:
The character is a being of blood and darkness, and can shrug off the most terrible attacks from mortal weapons. Like all creatures of his ilk, however, he has his weaknesses and vulnerabilities...
The Count gains +1 BIV against all attacks. However, blessed and/or holy weapons, and weapons created specifically to deal with vampires, negate this property. Furthermore, such weapons roll one extra die for damage, discarding the die with the lowest result. In addition, the Count suffers -1 Speed should such a weapon inflict more than one level of Injury to the Count's chest.


It's ultimately your call, but what I cooked up has less to keep track of, while keeping anti-vampire stuff suitably lethal.

Yeah know what you mean about the hunting rifle but I though in his character he would have a sight of some sort and as I only have the inquisitor rulebook for all my armoury I thought that a rangefinder would be the best kind of sight, if there was some sort of telescopic sight I think that that would be more like the sort of thing he would use, or maybe a reflex sight or something like that but unfortunately I couldn't find anything like that in the rule book.

I'll change the wording of the sword so it sounds better

The Light!: at the moment I'm not too sure about whether I'm going to create UV weapons and if I do what sort of thing they'll be so that' why I'm not too specific in the damage rating on that

Vampire Fortitude: I kinda know what you're saying about the rules I've got at the moment for this but I think that only one BIV doesn't quite show the kind of resilience a vampire has maybe +2 or 3 would be more suitable? I do however agree with your damage thinking in that you roll and extra die and discard the lowest one because that  stops on solid crossbow bolt to the chest almost killing him outright which is kind of a little too the other way.
 
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 10, 2013, 05:12:17 PM
but I think that only one BIV doesn't quite show the kind of resilience a vampire has maybe +2 or 3 would be more suitable?
That'd make him Base Injury 9 or 10, which doesn't work very well in rules terms.

Given the way damage works, it's so high it's almost pointlessly so. It dramatically reduces the likelihood of a single hit doing 2 or 3 injury levels, but that only really affects heavy weapon hits. Seeing as you take injury levels for even a single point of damage over armour, it doesn't really affect resilience versus light weapons.

I do have a BIV 8 character (a huge feudal worlder who stands a head taller than most of my other characters) but to make models tougher than that, I prefer to give characters extra injury levels or partial resistance to certain damage results.

My toughest character is actually only toughness 65 (so BIV 7), but has some resistance to stunning, system shock, unconsciousness, speed penalties and can regenerate. (However, given she also has zero armour, a lot of this just spends its time countering the fact she takes more injuries than other characters).

That said, you should ultimately bear in mind that ultimately you're not just trying to make a really tough vampire. You're trying to make an Inquisitor character and this does mean compromise. There are superlatively tough vampires in fiction, but such invincible characters aren't suitable for the gaming table.
Have him somewhat tougher than a normal human by all means (which BIV 8 would be), but don't just use "he's a vampire" as an excuse for anything or everything.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 10, 2013, 06:16:44 PM
So could we possibly have him normal BIV but having an additional injury level to begin with on each location that has no negative modifiers unless he his hit with specific anti-vampire weapons there that also do the roll another die discard the lowest one?
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 10, 2013, 06:30:35 PM
I'm not sure he needs an extra BIV if damage after armour is halved. If I were you I'd play him for a few games as he is and see. There's nothing saying you can't adjust your character once you start using him.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 10, 2013, 07:05:51 PM
The Carthax Wiki (http://carthax.wikispaces.com/Special+Abilities) gives us "Just A Flesh Wound" which is effectively what you're after. Paired up with my own stab at Vampire Fortitude, it'll make him tough, but by no means impossible for a hunter to bring down.

And while I'm linking things, here's the thread that gave us the Revised Inquisitor Armoury (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33.0) (which has things like reflex sights, telescopic sights and all sorts of weird and wonderful alternative weapon rules)

In the context of the RIA, the "roll an extra die and discard the lowest" thing is basically longhand for the Tearing property.

I'm not sure he needs an extra BIV if damage after armour is halved. If I were you I'd play him for a few games as he is and see. There's nothing saying you can't adjust your character once you start using him.
To be fair, my version of Vampire Fortitude was meant to be a straight replacement for the original Half Damage After Armour version, as I think that Half Damage After Armour would be a disturbingly powerful property for him to have.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 10, 2013, 08:24:12 PM
Thanks for that link to the revised armoury

Ok so new Vampire Fortitude rules: the same as carthaxwiki's just a fleshwound (there is an extra injury level on all locations that doesn't have any penalties) when vampire killing weapons hit the chest area this extra injury level is ignored and roll an extra damage die discarding the lowest. In cases where something can get stuck in the chest he must make a strength test to remove it at -10% for each injury level in the chest or suffer -1 speed.

What do we think?
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 10, 2013, 08:38:29 PM
Uh, the "extra level of injury being ignored" makes little sense, as his Injury levels go Flesh Wound > Light > Heavy etc -- Just A Flesh Wound isn't the same thing as "+1 BIV".

As such, you can give him Just A Flesh Wound, but in order for the vampire-killing bit to make sense, it should really be "-1 BIV when vampire-killing weapons hit the chest", as he may well have lost his Flesh Wound box already to other things.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 10, 2013, 10:06:46 PM
Yeah that makes a lot more sense with the -1 BIV I didn't really think that through thanks
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Alyster Wick on April 11, 2013, 03:34:42 AM
With the whole raise zombies thing it seems like you could just limit this ability by mandating that their be viable corpses nearby in order for them to be summoned (which will not always necessarily be the case). With a game as detailed as Inquisitor is seems a bit far-fetched to say that there will always just be bodies somewhere that can claw through the ground/wooden floor/void of space in order to aid your character.

On that note, while I'm digging some of the rules you've put together I do feel like you're missing some opportunities with the background. A number of times throughout the thread you refer to standard vampire lore (as we understand it) to explain his toughness, etc. Then again you use Warhammer Fantasy as a direct reference for the "magic sword." This just seems like way too much of a direct port (on multiple levels) without really wanting to put in any effort to have your character concept mesh with the fictional universe you're role playing in. IMO, if you answer background questions with an explanation that takes fluff from outside the 40K universe as a given then there's an issue.

I'm actually very much with Kaled on the "magic sword" in terms of leaving its origins and abilities mysterious. I do that kind of thing all the time and I love the ambiguity/possibility of future tie ins. That said, ambiguity like this shouldn't be an excuse to make a daemon weapon with no downsides (which is basically what you've done here). I would be more accepting of a weapon this exceptional if the character wasn't such a beast in other ways, but he's a classical Vampire and the stats reflect that.

40K background offers plenty of ways to create "vampiric" characters. They could be psychers/sorcerers that drain life force and need a physical totem to do so (blood), a particularly nasty mutant cannibal with a freakishly long life span, a member of the haemevore cult, a Dark Eldar, a follower of Khorne or Nurgle (hell, Slaanesh or Tzeentch could easily have followers that are suitably vampiric, the blood god and rot god are only slightly more natural choices). These are options I came up with while I typed with little to no thought put into it. You could even create an entirely new alien species that introduced a virus to the human race. Maybe a Thorian Inquisitor accidentally created vampires while trying to make a potion from some liquid byproduct of the Golden Throne. Beyond the obvious there are hundreds if not thousands of ways that you could creatively integrate vampires into the 40K universe rather than just saying, "well, he's a vampire," as justification for his existence.

To close, I really feel throwing a "vampire" in without either fully developing what "vampires" are within the 40K framework (such as putting effort into explaining how such creatures came to be, how they are/aren't in tune with the warp, if their powers derive from chaos, xenos origins, etc) is exactly the same thing as me creating a character that is a Jedi and explaining him by saying, "well, he's a Jedi. He uses the force." There's nothing wrong with taking inspiration from vampires (or Jedi, for that matter) but when there's no effort put in to explain the character and their background within the context of the 40K universe it starts chipping away at what's unique about the gaming world you're playing in.

Sorry, don't want to sound overly harsh but I feel strongly. If this style of critique is not helpful I will stick to the rules in any future comments.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 11, 2013, 06:37:29 AM
post
This is more or less how I feel on the matter (with the exception of the magic sword, which I do think is suitably out of left field that we need something more to latch onto than "it's magic"), but at the same time we don't actually have an awful lot of background to go on -- on the other hand, we do have rules in front of us that we can critique and discuss.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Kaled on April 11, 2013, 06:48:22 AM
You could make a couple of corpses with rules for how/where they are placed at the start of the game (perhaps by the GM) and it is these that can be turned into zombies as well as the bodies of any dead PCs or NPCs. Then the opposition, once they realise they're up against someone who can raise the dead might want to start destroying bodies so they can't be reanimated.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: DapperAnarchist on April 11, 2013, 10:17:29 AM
It should also be noted that there is a specific "Vampire" species in 40k, a Warp creature (not a daemon) that can take on either human or vaguely batlike form and that tend to slip onto ships and feed on the crew.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 11, 2013, 01:13:39 PM
I always thought that the Warhammer Fantasy universe and the Warhammer 40K universe were the same just with the time difference. So my reasoning would be that a vampire survived from that line of vampires originally from Terran, although I can understand how that is a little tenuous. He could have been a Vampire in the ranks of the Vampire counts armies and whilst attacking an army of lizardmen he got sucked/kicked/pushed into an Engine of the Gods, an ancient device said to be made by the Old Ones themselves (I believe the same Old Ones who were in opposition to the C'Tan) and he was lost in the warp. After a time he was spat out again onto a world in the 41st Millenium, where, after he got his bearings, he set about bending it to his will until he was in a high and comfortable position, then onto the rest of the story with Inquisitor Hale. Although the second idea does technically work (Provided they are the same universe) I don't much like it.

Or alternatively He could have been a Noble who either succumbed to a rare virus that essentially makes you into the traditional type of vampire or a magos Biologis could have approached him to be a test subject on hat he guaranteed would make him into a superhuman much like a Space Marine but neither of them could predict the terrible consequences of this genetic strain being introduced into human DNA.

Although as DapperAnarchist points out there is a Vampire species in 40k I wanted mine to be more of a human than a creature of the warp or an alien.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 11, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
I always thought that the Warhammer Fantasy universe and the Warhammer 40K universe were the same just with the time difference.
Noooooooooooooo.

An easy disproof of that is that in the 40k universe, Slaanesh didn't exist until the Eye of Terror was formed in M30, by which time you were past the Dark/Golden Age of Technology and around about the time of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy.
In the 40k canon, their past might as well be assumed to be pretty much our universe - we know Terra is Earth, given maps and the fact many other of the Sun's planets/moons are in the background (Mars, Titan, Jupiter, etc). Maps of the WHFB world make it clear that it is not Earth.

Officially, they're separate universes. There was previously the notion that perhaps the Warhammer World was in the 40k universe, isolated by warp storms for millennia, but that got thoroughly retconned out. Given that WH40K has weapons on the planet destroying scale, it made the WHFB world a little impotent in comparison.

Quote
Although as DapperAnarchist points out there is a Vampire species in 40k I wanted mine to be more of a human than a creature of the warp or an alien.
I think you might be able to push him as a mutant or corrupted by (but not a creature of) the warp - maybe through sorcery, daemonic pact or virus, whatever.

I'm sure there's enough unpleasant types in the 41st millennium that wouldn't mind a bit of a warp jiggery-pokery to make them immortal at the cost of others.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 11, 2013, 02:36:45 PM
I always thought that the Warhammer Fantasy universe and the Warhammer 40K universe were the same just with the time difference.
Noooooooooooooo.


Ok well that makes it a lot easier to decide how he's come upon these vampiric powers I think to have him as a vampire that requires human blood for sustenance and can raise the dead a pact with the dark gods may be slightly more what I'm looking for rather than a virus or new genetic strain. I'm thinking possibly he was a noble whose family was in connection with chaos worshipping cults who tempted him with dark power increased strength speed and resilience an offer he couldn't say no to. Only to find out afterwards that he was neither living nor dead, dependant on the life force of other humans to survive. I think if we link this in with the other back stories i've pieced together of him it comes together quite nicely.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Hiver20 on April 11, 2013, 05:47:16 PM
I always thought that the Warhammer Fantasy universe and the Warhammer 40K universe were the same just with the time difference.

Actually according to the new Daemon of Chaos and the Chaos Daemon codex`s they are connected but only because the world of Warhammer fantasy is a world with the warp and also the the new stories in both books does suggest that they are joined up and that the Realm of Chaos and the Eye of Terror are connected. Because how else could you explain there being Daemons and Chaos beings in both universes as well as Squats, Eldar/Dark Eldar. But then again I have only recently found this out as well as being quite new to the whole universes of Inquisitior. So he could be a Vampire from the world of Warhammer he would of just had to part through the Realms of Chaos, so most probable going insane by then foe of it as well losing his soul to the Dark Gods to gain more power so he can get through to the 40k universe.

Hiver20
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 11, 2013, 06:09:24 PM
Because how else could you explain there being Daemons and Chaos beings in both universes as well as Squats, Eldar/Dark Eldar.
Using parallels as incontrovertible proof they're the same universe would also mean Space Marines are about to launch a drop pod assault on Middle Earth.

Honestly, I'd really give it a miss, because it frankly sounds like it's on the same level as a bad fan-fiction where "OMG I'm in the WH40K universe how did that happen WTF this is awesome I wanna be a space marine". As with all of these things, Mat Ward needs a slap.

It was reasonably done in the Liber Chaotica books where the 40K stuff was all portrayed glimpses from the visions and ramblings of an increasingly mad character, but it's not a good thing to do in this case. There's no need to do it, and it's frankly really out of place.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 11, 2013, 06:18:41 PM
Yeah so I've decided that I'm going to go with the deal with the dark gods. As I said before he was from a noble family who dabbled in a little of the dark arts and chaos worshipping to keep power and influence but Dragos fell into it quite heavily and made a deal to gain superhuman power as a drawback he must drink the blood of other humans to survive.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: Koval on April 11, 2013, 06:37:13 PM
Quote
Because how else could you explain there being Daemons and Chaos beings in both universes as well as Squats, Eldar/Dark Eldar.
Because Games Workshop wanted a sci-fi setting with familiar fantasy elements, hence what we were probably supposed to recognise initially as Elves In Space and Dwarves In Space, and hence the Chaos tie-in to link the two settings on a thematic level and identify them as Games Workshop's own settings. Canonically, the two are not related; they just happen to share a few things, like Chaos.

In any case, I can't speak for the Fantasy Daemons book, but I can find no suggestions at all that the two settings are in any way linked in Codex: Daemons -- the "Realm of Chaos" here is just another name for the Warp, and the idea of landmarks in the Formless Wastes is basically what happens when you try to superimpose some kind of sense on the nature of the Warp, where physics is a joke you tell your mates.

None of this is new.

Mirry: Having the Count be a follower of Chaos makes perfect sense. You even get the option of deciding which of the Chaos Powers gets to curse him. I personally went for Nurgle when I threw my parasite-version together*, but there are compelling cases for all of them. For example, Khorne's obvious because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, but Tzeentch might've just wanted to futz with the Count for giggles.


*This despite none of my resulting vampire factions paying Nurgle much attention. But Nurgle loves all of his children, even the rebellious ones.
Title: Re: The Count and his cold-bodied accomplices
Post by: mirryhalo on April 11, 2013, 08:18:31 PM
Yes so Chaos worshipper it is I was originally going to Khorne as we have said for the obvious reasons of blood for the Blood God but then I thought he'll want the blood for himself and I thought he's not the blood crazed berserker kind of guy he's the more decadent luxury and power so I thought Slanesh would be perfect as I think as well as going with that Slanesh would be more of the type who would make someone a vampire with the type of strengths and powers they have as well as lifestyle