Short Question - is there any fluff that stops me creating internal ranks in the Commissariat?
Longer version:
Im trying to develop a Commissar character and have been looking for some background on the Commissariat. Looking at the Lexicanum (I dont have any BL books or DH source material) as my only source of info, I note there is the rare example of the rank of Commissar Colonel (i.e. Gaunt) a dual role Regimental CO and then only the Commissar General. There don't appear to be any graduations within the rank of Commissar - so a senior figure such as Yarrick is still referred to as 'Commissar'.
Would it be accepatble to assume that there is a rank system within the Commissariat itself, but the title 'Commissar' is an honorific applied to all ranks by 'outside' organisations, e.g the Imperial Guard and Navy?
I see the role of Commissars within the IG rather like an officer from a different branch or arm of the services on detachment, operating within thier own hierarchy and possibly even to thier own agenda on occasions, but seconded/detached and under the general direction/orders of the ranking officer I/C.
I would broadly suggest something like:
- Commissar Junior Lieutenant - normally associated with Imperial Guard Squads/Platoons/Sections.
- Commissar Captain, usually attached to Company command squads
- Commissar Major, usually serving at Regimental command or occasionally lower Battalion levels
- Commissar Colonel, either (v. rarely) acting C/O of a regiment or at Battalion command level
- Commissar Brigadier, serving at Divisonal level or higher
etc etc.
I would personally like to come up with some better sounding rank titles though; Commissar Direktor Major, Commissar Inspektor Captain, although obviously better than that....and with fewer stupid spellings ;)
Thoughts?
Well, to everyone else they tend to all be 'lord commisar', of course, but there would almost certainly be some form of internal heirarchy, if only an informal deference of less experienced commisars to senior ones. Someone will probably post ranks that have appeared in an IG codex, but there's no reason for them to be completely uniform (space is big), so if you want to invent your own title that's fine. I would differentiate from the IG ranks though.
According to the Cain Books, the Commissar's are all equal, and seniority and position appointed to is the ranking structure.
So a Commissar appointed to the Lord General's staff and 100 years experience may outrank in actuality, but not in legality, that of a commissar fresh out of base and appointed to a logistics company.
Ahh, thanks for that.
Actually, I do remember reading in the Lexicanum that 'locally appointed' Commissars in PDF's often have jurisdiction disputes with their opposite numbers in the IG. Apparently this has even lead to field executions, so is probably a better area for a characters development and involvement with Inquisitorial shennanigans..
Quote from: Flinty on March 02, 2010, 07:37:37 AM
Ahh, thanks for that.
Actually, I do remember reading in the Lexicanum that 'locally appointed' Commissars in PDF's often have jurisdiction disputes with their opposite numbers in the IG. Apparently this has even lead to field executions, so is probably a better area for a characters development and involvement with Inquisitorial shennanigans..
If I remember correctly locally appointed commissars are lower ranking than IG commissars from off world (see G Ghosts; Necropolis for details)
Quote from: Kasthan on March 02, 2010, 08:09:52 AM
If I remember correctly locally appointed commissars are lower ranking than IG commissars from off world (see G Ghosts; Necropolis for details)
That's because, by dint of being locally appointed, a 'PDF' Commissar wouldn't technically be a member of the Commissariat, nor appointed by the Departmento Munitorum... consequently, they're Commissars in name only. There's an example of this dispute in The Inquisitor's Handbook for Dark Heresy - the 'Chaliced Commissariat' is an organisation established by Lord Sector Marius Hax to oversee and ensure the loyalty of locally-raised forces, but they're not well-liked, and are mostly limited to PDF duties after some 'disagreements' with real Commissars.
Necropolis is something if an early case of Abnett not doing his research. A bunch of pretend Commissars lead by one real Commissar.
You know, I rather like the idea of more officious internal Commissar ranks - Commissar Director Vanzov, on secondment to command of Lord General Harransrr. Got a nice ring to it. And anyway, though the Imperium isn't noted for its efficiency (The Inquisition is testament to that), it makes sense that the status-obsessed Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy would like to have a formal system for deciding which Commissar defers to which
Tullio
I think length of service would be an adequate method.
I seem to recall (though I may be wrong) that in the last edition of Epic, Imperial Guard units could take a Commissar-General as a supreme commander. That certainly sounds better to me than Commissar Lord, if nothing else.
Thanks Chaps. Useful.
NO1H3r3's info has put me off the PDF/locally raised idea, as I do want the character to have some rank outside of a particular planet or system. However, as Tullio states, its a big universe, so I will try and develop my original idea into a Commissariat Internal Affairs department perhaps.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on March 02, 2010, 12:43:21 PM
That's because, by dint of being locally appointed, a 'PDF' Commissar wouldn't technically be a member of the Commissariat
I recall reading, in either the Cain series or one of the Guard books, that a "proper" PDF Commissar is actually in charge of several planets' worth of PDF, and was probably assigned to his position after a disagreement with the higher-ups. I can't get a source for you as all my books are in the UK and I won't be going home for quite a while...
Quote from: Koval on March 20, 2010, 08:35:24 AM
I recall reading, in either the Cain series or one of the Guard books, that a "proper" PDF Commissar is actually in charge of several planets' worth of PDF, and was probably assigned to his position after a disagreement with the higher-ups. I can't get a source for you as all my books are in the UK and I won't be going home for quite a while...
Several worlds would suggest a jurisdiction limited to a single subsector or being part of an organisation limited to a single sector... still 'local' by comparison to the true Commissariat of the Departmento Munitorum.
Point to note:
Gaunt's rank of Colonel Commissar (which shouldn't, strictly, be hyphenated) is in fact two ranks: one rank of Colonel (strictly Honorary Colonel) and one of Commissar. He was to have been the Regimental Commander of three battalions of Tanith Scouts, of which only one survived the Fall of Tanith. This is why there is also Colonel (technically speaking, a Lieutenant Colonel) Colm Corbec, who is the commander of the Tanith First Battalion, who answers to Gaunt.
Gaunt's colonelcy is a honorarium granted by Warmaster Slaydo (deceased). Gaunt's actual appointment is regimental commissar. The point of the honorarium is essentially that Slaydo was granting Gaunt the opportunity to retire from the Commissariat (something that doesn't usually happen) and basically become a planetary governor, should the Tanith regiments do well enough to be granted settlement rights.
Dan may make the occasional mistake but this wasn't really one of them. If was widely misinterpreted by fans because Dan hyphenated Gaunt's rank.
The rank of Commissar-General is correct, because it describes a Commissar in charge of other Commissars (the "general" is a descriptor of his role, not a rank - it means he is "generally" a commissar, rather than a regimental commissar who is "specifically" a commissar; i.e. a commissar to that specific regiment).
There are, therefore, three "ranks" for a commissar: Cadet Commissar, Commissar and Commissar-General. However, do recall that Commissars are members of the Departmento Munitorum, which is a department of the Administratum. So in addition to their appointments as commissars, they will also hold the rank of "adept" and a sub-rank based upon their status within the Administratum. So a Commissar might be, formally, a Commissar (Grade 4.57) and technically subordinate to a Commissar (Grade 4.63).
R.
Interesting - thanks for the background. I haven't read any of the BL material, so always good to get nice, concise, versions of the fluff.
Accept your point about the general reference term for someone who is a Commissar, but -
QuoteSo a Commissar might be, formally, a Commissar (Grade 4.57)
makes them sound a little bit too much like a civil servant...
I know they are, of course, part of the Administratum, but I like to think of them belonging to one of the
extremely militant branches, as opposed to the poor bod looking after the Imperial parks and gardens, tree and shrub budget.
And although the numeric scale is a well know ranking system, I think that the Imperium would also attach some sort of title to grades within ranks as well. You dont differentiate between people in an office by saying ''Im a grade 7 and she's an 8.5'', one would say (well, I would) ''Im a Beverage Delivery Agent and she's a Roaming Nutritional Facilitator''
Oh, absolutely. I was just grasping for an explanation of the full picture. Mind you, you could find that one branch of the Administratum considers a Facilitator to be a Grade 107.9 lowly menial, whilst another reserves the title of Facilitator for a lofty Grade 2.3. And much hilarity ensues.
R.
Quote from: Flinty on April 14, 2010, 08:40:24 AMI know they are, of course, part of the Administratum, but I like to think of them belonging to one of the extremely militant branches, as opposed to the poor bod looking after the Imperial parks and gardens, tree and shrub budget.
One thing to remember is that much of the civilian infrastructure of the Imperium exists essentially to support the military - the modern Administratum is to an extent an outgrowth of the supply lines and logistical structures that were established to support the expeditionary fleets of the Great Crusade.
It's one of the reasons the modern Imperium doesn't quite work at times - it's built from the ruins of a civilisation that was engaged in conquering the galaxy and had yet to be rebuilt properly into something that could endure in times of peace.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on April 15, 2010, 09:12:36 PM
it's built from the ruins of a civilisation that was engaged in conquering the galaxy and had yet to be rebuilt properly into something that could endure in times of peace.
There is no peace ;)
Only the laughter of thirsty gods and so on ;D
Adam