The Conclave

Evening all,

I don't tend to post my characters for reasons I've stated in the past, but since Marco has come in for a lot of flak regarding his characters and mine are very similar, I thought I'd post a couple and see what kind of reception they get - I wonder if I too am making characters that the 'Clave in general would consider to be too powerful.  As most of you know, I don't really do much in the way of written background (and even when I do, it often makes little mention of a character's prowess) - so if you're looking for background that will 'justify' every stat, skill and unusual piece of equipment then you'll probably be disappointed.

That said, the first character I'm going to post is my namesake, Inquisitor Kaled.  His background is fairly 'standard' in it's format and content - I seem to remember that I used the 'Twenty Questions' as a guide and threw in mentions on things that relate to stats.  Quite a few of you will have already seen his profile - either during a game, or when I entered him in the first Conclave Hobby Competition, but his profile has been tweaked a few times since the original so might not be how you remember it.

---

Drake Kaled was born the son of a Navy Captain amongst the wealthy and privileged citizens of Teluga Prime. At a young age he resolved to follow in his father's footsteps, and after attending the Schola Progenium and the Naval Academy he was assigned to the battleship 'Spear of Light'. One of his first duties was as Junior Naval Liaison to Inquisitor Corticelli during the Barrass Heresy.

His previously latent psychic abilities were discovered when he instinctively threw up a psychic shield to protect himself when the kill-team he was accompanying were ambushed by cultists. At first he was distraught when he was told that as a psyker he would be forced to resign his commission, but fortunately for him Corticelli had seen his potential and recommended him for training within the shadowy Inquisition. Kaled soon came to realise that he would now be able to serve the Navy in ways he had never dreamed of before.

Inquisitor Kaled is now well into his third century, and is fairly conventional as inquisitors go. He's a pragmatic man who steers clear of the political infighting within the Ordos and strongly believes that the Imperial Navy is the foremost instrument of the Emperor's will. He usually works in the open weeding out traitors, heretics and mutants from the officers and crew of starships. Like all Inquisitors he is feared, but he is also respected for his fairness. He's unlikely to have a massive witch-hunt and execute the entire crew of a ship, but he won't hesitate to throw any heretics he does find out the nearest airlock.

He is a very private individual and is seen as cold and unemotional. He is known for rarely flinching at danger; while leading his warband from the front he uses his powers to protect himself from harm. When aboard ship he stands beside the Captain, barely reacting to the immense impacts of space combat.

His features are craggy with deep set eyes, and he is always smartly dressed. While aboard ship he almost always wears a a uniform reminiscent of naval officer. Few people know what he does off-duty; it would probably surprise them to know that he has a love of poetry and sculpture, although much of his time is spent reading up on naval tactics.

In battle his psychic powers give him a heightened awareness of his surroundings and the ability to project a psychic shield; however he has never developed any talents that can be used offensively.

Over the years Kaled has undergone juvenant treatment on a couple of occasions, and various parts of his body have been replaced due to illness and injury; however where possible he prefers vat-grown cloned implants rather than mechanical ones. He works hard to stay in shape, often training alongside Navy personnel. He has had extensive firearms training and is a more than competant swordsman.

In battle he usually carries an ornate Bolt Pistol, which was presented to him by Brother Asriel of the Mentor Legion, and a long bladed force sword which he inherited from his former master. His favourite weapons however are a matched set of powerful customised Naval-issue stub pistols, a gift from his acolyte Morena Goodchild.

Recently Kaled was one of the Inquisitors drawn to the mysterious Dark Fortress on Hastor, one of the earliest strongholds of the fledgling Inquisition. He and his team made their way to centre of the labyrinth underneath the fortress seeking the mysterious Hastor Stones, powerful artifacts capable of curing any injury. Minutes after his arrival a number of other warbands turned up and he was gunned down by a rival and left for dead. One of his operatives revived him using one of the Stones and together they escaped carrying a second Stone. Kaled's encounter with the stone has left him strengthened in mind and body. He is currently engaged in hunting down the remaining stones before they can be used for ill purposes.

Drake Kaled is right handed.

STATS: WS=69 BS=75 S=62 T=65 I=71 Wp=79 Sg=80 Nv=88 Ld=89
SKILLS: Gunfighter, Leader
POWERS: Psychic Ward, Detection
EQUIPMENT: Bolt Pistol + reload, Force Sword, Naval Issue Stub Pistol + two reloads, Flak armour on all locations except head, Psi-tracker, 2 Frag Grenades, 2 Photon Flash Grenades, Injector implant with 8 doses of Detox.
OR
EQUIPMENT: Two Naval Issue Stub Pistols + four reloads, Knife, Heavy Coat, Light Flak vest, Injector implant with 8 doses of Detox.

Naval Issue Stub Pistols - Type: Pistol, Range: F, Mode: Single/Semi(2) Acc:-, Dam:2D6+4, Shots: 13, Rld: 2, Weight:20

---

If I was building him now, I think I'd give him a stubber instead of the bolt pistol (like I did with the 28mm version) - there've been a couple of times where I've shot someone with it and taken them out of the game with one hit, but the game would probably have been better if that character had been around for longer...

I'll let people debate this one for a while before posting another.  If anyone has any preferences about whose stats they'd like to see, then let me know - particularly if you think it's a character who may be over/under-powered; I'd rather post one that people find contraversial rather than one that everyone is fairly happy with.

- Dave

OMG! HEEZ 2 GOOD!!11one!!

:P

Sorry, I'm rather happy with him, he's not stupidly powerful and has a good backstory. I'd be happy to face him in either guise, and I'm sure it would be a good fun game regardless. Also, don't be worried about the bolt pistol, sometimes people in action films do go 'down in one'!

Looks good to me, not something I'd think of as being OP, especially for the primary character in a warband. Some of his subordinates are undoubtably stronger in specific areas, but I imagine this guy is the most "powerful" all rounder when he takes to the field? Yes I imagine the bolt pistol can do some damage, but also the fact that he has a stubber means that he doesn't have to put fist-sized holes in everything that catches his eye (the reason I gave my own Acolyte a bolt pistol - since he's heavily dependant on ranged power and keeping enemies at arm's length with artillery and psychic power, I imagined him to be using the stubber whenever he feels like shooting something, but on the occasions he has a frenzied arcoflaggelant bearing down on him he is forced to spend action points drawing his BP to make that life-saving shot).

I like the way you've given him that paragraph about vat-grown mods. As usual I read the profile first then went back to the fluff, and seeing him as 300+ years I breifly thought "He's done well to be in one piece after so long in the field", until I reached that bit. I also like the way that he has that underlying purpose to his activities, not something that I have thought about for my own characters, I suppose as a consequence of them all being new.

One thing I don't like is the fact that he's had the bolt pistol gifted to him by a marine. He already reminds me of Eisenhorn - kind of hard to avoid given the head / body combo (I know his body is significantly different to the stock Eisenhorn, but still close enough when compared to the Tyrus body for example) and some of his background is similar too - a loyal, pragmatic veteran, etc etc. So I think that bit about the pistol is a bit too similar when viewed in conjunction with the other features.

/oh yeah great model too, still I think one of your best despite the age. The blue bias on the black hilights is especially nice given his backstory.

Quote from: Ferran on March 03, 2010, 06:56:07 PM... and seeing him as 300+ years...

"Into his third century" doesn't make someone 300+ years old. I'm in my first century, but only 21.

~~~~~

As far as my own opinions, it's hardly surprising that I find him reasonable enough. Yeah, he can handle himself in combat, but what else is to be expected from an Inquisitor?

Reasonable profile, justifiable skills, interesting backstory... I'd have absolutely no problems on the table. Sure, I wouldn't particularly want one of my characters to cop a bolt pistol round, but given as far as I know, the "Battle" Kaled is only really broken out when it's time to smack some heretics upside the head, I can't complain against the logic behind it. Powerful weapons exist because there are times to use them.

Unlike Ferran, I don't see much in the way of Eisenhorn similarity (obviously it's Eisenhorn's head, but you have to allow for the limited parts in the Inqusitor model range) - his backstory doesn't really make me think of Eisenhorn at all. While he might have a Space Marine bequeathed Bolt Pistol, that does not Eisenhorn make.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, I've been listening to War of the Worlds recently, and now I've just got a vision of a Techpriest who wanders around going "Ulla!" - after all, they do come from Mars...

Quote from: Ferran on March 03, 2010, 06:56:07 PM
One thing I don't like is the fact that he's had the bolt pistol gifted to him by a marine.

The only reason I added that is the bolt pistol is a bit too big IMHO - hence I figured maybe it once belonged to a marine...

Always liked the look of Kaled's two models (three if you choose to include his 28mm incarnation), and his statline reflects him pretty well from his background. Definitely a good character. What kit did that boltgun come from, though, and where did you get the formal wear stuff from?

.EDIT: Removed superfluous text.

Quote from: Daxam on March 03, 2010, 09:34:08 PM
Always liked the look of Kaled's two models (three if you choose to include his 28mm incarnation), and his statline reflects him pretty well from his background. Definitely a good character. What kit did that boltgun come from, though, and where did you get the formal wear stuff from?

Thanks.  The bolt pistol was from the OOP Bolt Weapon Booster Pack, and the version of Kaled in a long coat is based on a model of Wyatt Earp by Andrea Miniatures.

As a favour to me, lets leave the Ferran-Marco feud out of this thread please...

EDIT: In case anyone is confused reading this thread - I asked Ferran to remove his response to Marco (which he has kindly done) to avoid derailing the thread, hence Daxam's reply is now something of an orphan.

Humm, just to prove Im not picking on Marco  ;) I'll comment here. Nice background, I like the advanced age and the avoidance of bionics, nice touch and reflected in the excellent model. For someone who's at least 200 and some years old, his stats make sense to me, although I personally might lower strength and raise toughness by a couple of points, but pffffttttt, I quibble over nothing.

Psychic powers...okay, nice that its not offensive or else I would have expected an increasingly dramatic event in his past when it manifested. Kit seems balanced, I see the point about a bolt pistol being a game shortner on occasions, but it sounds as though he isnt constantly waving the thing around, so fair do's - although I too find the idea of a marine dishing out momentos to his chums a little odd.

A neat and tidy character with a neat and tidy set up. 

He is all round badass but then, experienced inquisitors are.  I do have a few reservations about the mental stats - all around 80.  Nice model and all round character though.

The combination of force sword and bolt pistol is pretty potent, since bolt pistols aren't alot less nasty than bolters themselves.  The initiative of 71 ties into my thoughts on initiative and speed - he's the kind of character I would place at speed 4 normally.  I was going to comment that a bolt pistol gifted by a marine would be of gigantic proportions, but you seem to have covered that.

Quote from: Myriad on March 04, 2010, 12:47:05 AM
The initiative of 71 ties into my thoughts on initiative and speed - he's the kind of character I would place at speed 4 normally.

Interesting, why do you say that?  Personally I think Speed 5 feels right for someone like an Inquisitor, someone who is decisive and quick-witted.  Speed 6 is generally where I'd put exceptionally quick individuals - trained assassins and the like.  For me, Speed 4 is 'right' for your typical henchmen types - people who are well trained and good at what they do and who aren't going to freeze in a crisis.  Speed 3 I'd generally only give to servitors or other fairly slow thinking characters.  Speeds 1 & 2 I'd probably never bother with for gameplay reasons, those characters often never get the chance to actually do anything.  These are just vague generalisations though and of course there are exceptions and some characters will demand a higher or lower Speed.

Well there's a couple of reasons I suppose.  Firstly, these are simply my musings and I have no particular problem with Kaled's initiative.

Speed 5 corresponds to an initiative of 70, which in any other stat would be considered very high.  I'm not certain that inquisitors would have especially fast reflexes by default - it's not a primary selection criteria (although I acknowledge it links into prowess in combat).  It also seems to me that while it would improve with training and experience, it isn't as susceptible to such as, say, weaponskill and strength.  They would develop an abillity to put what actions they had to better use, but I'm not convinced this translates to speed 5.

From a metagame perspective I feel that speed four works best for the default value, with speed 5 characters often taking alot of actions uninterrupted and breaking up the flow of the game.  This can be especially noticable once they're in combat, or firing a boltgun multiple times.  I think probably there should be more speed 3 characters, but the gradient between speeds is pretty steep (in my opinion too much so, but that leads to a seperate rules debate).

My group seems to tacitly agree that Speed 4 works for the default value, and that at most there should be only one Speed 5 character in each retinue. Interestingly, that isn't always the Inquitor. In one of my circle's retinues, Inquisitor Balthier is speed 4, whilst his gunfighting henchman has been speed 5 (at times, depending on the profile.)


We gave Balthier a rule called "Man of Action" which covered him nicely. It's worth noting he doesn't have heroic, but we thought "Man of Action" covered him well:

QuoteMAN OF ACTION: Balthier rolls an extra action dice. This does not allow him to perform more actions, but merely provides him with a greater chance of successfully carrying out his actions - or triggering a risky action!

Quote from: Myriad on March 04, 2010, 09:56:22 PM
I'm not certain that inquisitors would have especially fast reflexes by default

I guess this is the difference in how we regard Speed - you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of reflexes, whereas I look at Initiative as representing reflexes and Speed as decisiveness - i.e. how quickly a character is going to decide on a course of action and then act on it.  Of course this is made difficult by the fact that Speed is based on Initiative and the fact that Initiative also covers things like awareness so it's no where near as cut-and-dried as that.  But at least by making that distinction I can have two fairly equally decisive characters with differing reflexes by giving them the same speed but initiatives at different ends of the range.  Of course that does mean that characters with good reflexes are also decisive (and have good eyesight and hearing!), and ones with slow reflexes also take forever to decide what to do (and are about as observant as a short-sighted rock!) - but that's the price we pay for Initiative being a multi-purpose stat.

Quote from: Kaled on March 04, 2010, 10:51:07 PMBut that's the price we pay for Initiative being a multi-purpose stat.

I have been trying an alternative where Initiative is broken down into both Reflexes and Awareness. Speed is then defined as a stat in its own right, with no bearing on either of these two.

As you'd expect, there are no real problems, and indeed, it's not even incompatible with the normal game. It would take a moment to explain at the table, but all you'd do is test on the appropriate form of initiative when you needed to take a test. People are of course already familiar with Awareness penalties and bonuses.

It doesn't seem to cause any real problems. The only thing that I've found that took some sorting was play order, and that can be done easily enough by either just sorting by Reflexes, or sorting by speed, then sorting by Reflexes.

Really nice character, and I've always loved the two Kaled models (in addition to the striking 28mm one).  A Kaled for every occasion it seems...

As far as the bolt pistol goes it may be difficult to find reasons not to use it (if Kaled often finds himself in situations where he is very open about his status as an Inquisitor), but at the end of the day I generally abide by the philosophy of "you do what you gotta to make the game fun" in which case some suspension of disbelief in weapons selection makes sense (hopefully that sentence makes sense to others reading it).

I will close on this note (which is hopefully on topic since it addresses your "inspiration" for the post), I think you've helped change my mind of making suggestions on stats.  Originally (and for some time) I've been a crusader for creating categories of gaming to make it easier/more productive to critique stats and characters, but comparing your post with Marco's and my gut instinct on each character shows that my quest for finding a "useful" basis on which to critique stats is probably futile.  In the end I was harsher on Marco's stats than I was on yours.  Taking a step back there is no objective reason for for my feelings, as you've said Kaled, stats are generally best left to the GMs discretion.

That is not to say that I don't think characters should be posted.  Indeed, I think it's a great way to share new abilities and get feedback on how to represent new abilities in the game (see Marco's namesake and his Mass Awareness ability).  However, it does make me think about the air I've wasted nit picking 5 points over the stats of characters who I will never play against.  It really isn't a productive exercise.

Rant over, hope that wasn't too off topic, Kaled is a great character with great model(s)!

While it pains me to say it, I do think several of his stats are too high.

Being an expert swordsman and shooter would be an impressive feat for a man who didn't also have to run investigations, lead teams of varying number and all the other responcibilities that fall upon an inquisitor, or have the additional focus of mental powers. I know you've said the stat should be sufficient indication of a character capability without reference to the background but as you've included the sentence

QuoteHe has had extensive firearms training and is a more than competant swordsman.

I will add that I don't think either of these are appropriatel represented by the stats. From that description I would expect Bs in the high 50's (though given Kaled age and pressumably experience would probably extrapolate up a bit into the 60's) and a Ws no higher than 60.
Also, though I have no fundamental problem with bolt weapons, matching one with an exceptional Bs seems like a bit of a game ender.

His S and T, while very impressive for a man of his age, are much more achievable, I'd be tempted to have made him a speed 4 inquisitor, if only as a sign of his age slowly, but inescapibly begining to catch up with him. But again, I 71 is not at all out of place here.

All of his mental stats are at the high end of what I'd expect from an Inquisitor. You believe that Sg is based on nurture as well as nature, so for him to maintain such a high Sg would be another thing that would detract from the dedication he could put into maintaing his Ws and Bs.
Nv and Ld are all but in the 90's. Again how does he manage to be so good at everything?

I suppose my ultimate opinion of those stats is this. He is not an implauably capable man, he is just amazing. To be that naturally capable would make him one in a million. A million inquisitors, that is.
This is not how he appears in his background and I don't think that this is how you see him.

In other words I think he is conciderably better than you think he is.

If I'm honest, I've indulged in creating such a character, My namesake, currently an elucidator, who is to a prodigy what a prodigy is to a normal person, but he doesn't have any power/bolt weapons, and doesn't have psychic powers either. And more importantly I see him as 'a little too exceptional' to use Marco's turn of phrase. Also he lacks the tabletop impact that Kaleds rare kit and powers grant him. Even so he is not a character I play with much.

One final observation, at 2D6+4 those naval stubbers must have big bullets, but the mag capacity is large. I'd suggest 6-8 shots for a pistol of that damage barring extended mags or what not.

P.s. I am ever in awe of your models, and having alternate models of the character is brilliant.

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 07, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
but as you've included the sentence

QuoteHe has had extensive firearms training and is a more than competant swordsman.

I will add that I don't think either of these are appropriatel represented by the stats. From that description I would expect Bs in the high 50's (though given Kaled age and pressumably experience would probably extrapolate up a bit into the 60's) and a Ws no higher than 60.

If WS 50-60 represents someone who is competant, why would you say that 'a more than competant swordsman' doesn't justify a WS higher than 60?  Considering that I tend to err on the side of understatement, rather than superlatives - what wording do you think I should have used to 'justify' his BS?

QuoteAlso, though I have no fundamental problem with bolt weapons, matching one with an exceptional Bs seems like a bit of a game ender.

But artificially making a character's stats lower than you think they should be just because he happens to be carrying a powerful weapon at the time seems pretty nonsensical.

QuoteI'd be tempted to have made him a speed 4 inquisitor, if only as a sign of his age slowly, but inescapibly begining to catch up with him.

Are you looking at Speed as an indication of reflexes or decisiveness - personally I go with the latter (but as discussed in another thread, the fact that Initiative is such a multi-purpose stat does bring problems).

QuoteYou believe that Sg is based on nurture as well as nature, so for him to maintain such a high Sg would be another thing that would detract from the dedication he could put into maintaing his Ws and Bs.

Personally I wouldn't say that there's any need to dedicate time to working to 'maintain' Sagacity.  I don't see it in the same way as WS or S - something that would require training to maintain.

QuoteIn other words I think he is conciderably better than you think he is.

And in your gaming group you might be right...

Quote from: Kaled on March 07, 2010, 09:55:16 AMAre you looking at Speed as an indication of reflexes or decisiveness - personally I go with the latter (but as discussed in another thread, the fact that Initiative is such a multi-purpose stat does bring problems).

I think that was the last page of this thread.

QuotePersonally I wouldn't say that there's any need to dedicate time to working to 'maintain' Sagacity.  I don't see it in the same way as WS or S - something that would require training to maintain.

Well, brains do need to be kept in practice... but an Inquisitor would do more than enough thinking as part of their job to keep their minds up to scratch as far as recall speed, logical thinking and all that jazz.

While you might need to practice a specific sword move to remain good at it, brains just need more general practice.
But with anything really, it takes a lot less effort to maintain a certain level of skill than to have reached it in the first place.

I disagree - If an Inquisitor is doing his job properly, his brain should be constantly cogitating away. I think PO has addressed his in INQ2, but I see Sg as half intelligence, half experience. You can be a know-it-all youngster, but it's the old codgers who know every trick in the book and who usually get the upper hand.

Quote from: Kaled on March 07, 2010, 09:55:16 AM
If WS 50-60 represents someone who is competant, why would you say that 'a more than competant swordsman' doesn't justify a WS higher than 60?  Considering that I tend to err on the side of understatement, rather than superlatives - what wording do you think I should have used to 'justify' his BS?

50 is basic competance, therefore 60 is more than competant, even if it is soo much more to be concidered exceptional, it is still quite a step up. I did perhaps over react a bit, 69 deserves terms like 'outstanding' and 'daily training'. Perhaps low 60's would have been more charitable, and closer to the LRB line.
We're told that a dedicated marksman 'might' achieve a Bs in the 60-80 range. 75 put him among the best of the collective dedicated marksmen, most of whome are proffessional soldiers. I don't believe he could maintain that skill whilst simultaniously studing advanced fencing techniques and controling the constant mental battle that comes with being psychicly attuned, let alone with all his Inquisitorial responsibilities. Given the vastly reduced time he has to dedicate to shooting compaired to most expert soldiers and space marines that shoot at that level I'd have to apply the term prodigeous or supreamely naturaly talented.

QuoteAlso, though I have no fundamental problem with bolt weapons, matching one with an exceptional Bs seems like a bit of a game ender.But artificially making a character's stats lower than you think they should be just because he happens to be carrying a powerful weapon at the time seems pretty nonsensical.

I try to justify it the otherway around, so I might give a guard officer with a mediocre Bs and Ws a bolt pistol and powersword, but my local prodigy, Elucidator Cade, would be a game dominator if he had a powerweapon to go with his master level Ws, so I make excuses for him to use a fencing sabre instead. In Kaled's case, I don't see why the Bs should be anything like that high, so don't think that lowering it would jepordise the character.

QuoteAre you looking at Speed as an indication of reflexes or decisiveness - personally I go with the latter (but as discussed in another thread, the fact that Initiative is such a multi-purpose stat does bring problems).

I agree the latter, but decicivness can ebb with age, or he might just grow more cautious in his old age. Just an idea that I could be one of his weaker area's for a character that seems not to have any at the moment. There is never a problem justifying a speed 5 inquisitor in my opinion so I'm not saying the stat is inappropriate, but it doesn't have to be speed 5 just because it could be.

QuotePersonally I wouldn't say that there's any need to dedicate time to working to 'maintain' Sagacity.  I don't see it in the same way as WS or S - something that would require training to maintain.

True, but I'd have thought that in practice high Sg characters would spend notable amounts of free time pursuing academic affairs, even if it is just reading a book of poetry. So it isn't so much that he reads to have a high Sg, but that he has a high Sg so he reads. I'd also say Sg 80 make his smart even for an inquisitor, not a problem, but again he seems to have a stats of a level that I'd expect from a character who was dedicated to that stat to the detrement of others.

Thats it I suppose: he seems to be dedicated to everything, a contradiction of the term dedication. I think that if every stat were reduced by 5 he would be better, and if some stats were reduced by a little more and some by a little less, giving him more distinct strengths and weaknesses, he would be great.

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 07, 2010, 05:22:42 PM
50 is basic competance, therefore 60 is more than competant, even if it is soo much more to be concidered exceptional, it is still quite a step up. I did perhaps over react a bit, 69 deserves terms like 'outstanding' and 'daily training'. Perhaps low 60's would have been more charitable, and closer to the LRB line.

According to the book 50-60 is the range for competant and 80+ is expert - he's somewhere in between, better than your average guardsman (who I'd put at competant) but far less than a dedicated swordsman.  If someone was so inclined they could write a guide as to what words could be used to 'justify' various stats - it might mean less arguing over whether stats are justified but in my opinion background that exists merely as justification for stats is pretty dull.

QuoteGiven the vastly reduced time he has to dedicate to shooting compaired to most expert soldiers and space marines that shoot at that level I'd have to apply the term prodigeous or supreamely naturaly talented.

How much time do you reckon those expert soldiers and space marines spend shooting each day to shoot at that level?

QuoteI try to justify it the otherway around, so I might give a guard officer with a mediocre Bs and Ws a bolt pistol and powersword, but my local prodigy, Elucidator Cade, would be a game dominator if he had a powerweapon to go with his master level Ws, so I make excuses for him to use a fencing sabre instead.

So people who aren't that good at shooting should be issued with more powerful guns?  Seems like a waste of ammo to me...  If someone is a good shot, I'd say they're likely to use a reasonably powerful gun otherwise it's a waste of their talents.  In one guise Kaled uses his stubbers (and only has a knife) - if I'd only posted that version would his BS suddenly be more acceptable (putting aside any justification for the moment)?  But personally I see no good reason for him not to carry his bolt pistol when he's walking into a combat situation, any 'justification' otherwise would be inappropriate to the characters.

QuoteI agree the latter, but decicivness can ebb with age, or he might just grow more cautious in his old age.

It might, but usually only when someone gets into old age - and he's anything but, more like middle aged really.  As for growing more cautious - I'd say that's more to do with what actions you declare for a character than their Speed.

Personally, my backgrounds nearly never support the stats. They simply don't mention much about them (mostly because they say nothing about the personality and so on). They do however support the equipment and sometimes the skills...

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 07, 2010, 05:22:42 PMWe're told that a dedicated marksman 'might' achieve a Bs in the 60-80 range.

A range of 60 to 80 is a very wide one. I have always taken "though a dedicated marksman might well have a BS twice this" to refer to twice the upper bound of 40 - so 80, which fits nicely with the definition of WS 80 being a master swordsman.

Personally, my own profile (yes, me) puts my skill at BS 60, which I think is reasonable enough. I normally do my target shooting with my customised air rifle, and I can use it to reliably put a pellet through the central hole of an M10 washer from 20 metres.
(I've got some experimental prototypes that can be used to easily better that, but I'm scarcely even allowed to admit that those exist at all, let alone give details on them.)

I maintain that level with relatively little practice and only passing training, and I don't pretend that my skills are particularly exceptional. I know enough to know that someone well trained and regularly practised could easily better my talents.

Let's look at the two possibilities here. Perhaps my skill actually deserves a higher stat - perhaps BS 70. However, but that makes stats of that region all that much easier to justify.
Perhaps my skill is should have a lower stat of around 50 - but BS 50 would be roughly described as "competent", so maybe the equivalent to a basic military passmark. And I can quite easily better basic military passmarks.

With that as a basis, I find values like Kaled's BS pretty reasonable. With his years of experience and training, it's only perfectly reasonable to expect he would be considerably better than I am.

QuotePerhaps my skill is should have a lower stat of around 50 - but BS 50 would be roughly described as "competent", so maybe the equivalent to a basic military passmark. And I can quite easily better basic military passmarks.

I've passed an APWT too, but wouldn't class myself above the level of 'most people'. I'd say the level of competence that 50-60 covers is that of professional shooters with experiance shooting at real targets as well as lots of extensive training with cut outs. 60's cover the upper end of the skill shooters that exist, 70's covers the absolute creme of the military shooters, special forces, snipers and so on.

We might be able to knock down targets, but that doesn't mean we'd be competant in a battlefield.

I think when someone gets up there in age (meaning multiple centuries in terms of 40K VIPs) then their skills become more of a reflex and the muscle memory would allow them to maintain an even level of skill with far less practice than when they were perfecting their skill.  Kaled might well have spent hours a day training in his youth to become a good shot.  While he has to practice to maintain that level it doesn't mean that he needs to spend hours a day.

To play devil's advocate, I imagine Kaled could have his own customized training area where he fires off a full clip at a range of moving targets then turns around, takes 5 steps while drawing his sword and then begins sparing with one of the young guard soldiers on the ship he currently occupies.  All the while his savant is briefing him on the details of upcoming missions, presenting him with logic puzzles and quizzing him on random Imperial trivia.  Yes, it sounds rather fanciful, but we're talking about a man who'll be pushing 300 years of age who lives in the 41st century (in a universe that may well not be our own).  

While these are just random musing that present one of many possibilities the point is that there are easily explanations to justify these stats.

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 07, 2010, 07:06:14 PM
We might be able to knock down targets, but that doesn't mean we'd be competant in a battlefield.

BS represents skill at shooting, competance on a battlefield is represented by other stats such as Nv and Speed.

Quote70's covers the absolute creme of the military shooters, special forces, snipers and so on.

So who would you put in the 80s and 90s?

I guess Vindicare would be the obvious option... I guess it depends partly on what you think of 100+ stats. What does it mean to have a BS of 104? That you hit 104% of the time without aiming? Or is it a relative stat in a way?

I have do experience of shooting real world targets. Not humans, admittedly, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're easier to hit.

I don't know whether you've ever tried hunting squirrels, but I can tell you they're small, fast, very jittery and seldom still for long - and with an air rifle, your kill shot is the brain. This gives you a kill area about the size of a five pence piece.
Try making that shot when said five pence piece is clambering all over a tree 40 metres away and you've got a gusty crosswind.

I'd say the ability to make that kind of shot with reasonable reliability was a decent justification for BS 60.

Quote from: Kaled on March 07, 2010, 07:46:29 PMBS represents skill at shooting, competance on a battlefield is represented by other stats such as Nv and Speed.

He's referring to the shots you'd need to make in battle - moving, unhelpful targets, not static paper ones.

Ah my mistake - I thought he was talking about the difficulty of making shots while being shot at etc on a battlefield rather than the different types of target.

Quote from: Kaled on March 07, 2010, 06:22:55 PM
According to the book 50-60 is the range for competant and 80+ is expert - he's somewhere in between, better than your average guardsman (who I'd put at competant) but far less than a dedicated swordsman.  If someone was so inclined they could write a guide as to what words could be used to 'justify' various stats - it might mean less arguing over whether stats are justified but in my opinion background that exists merely as justification for stats is pretty dull.

But 50 to 60 is quite a jump, 50 would be just about competent, with 60 being highly competent. by the time we get to 69 we are talking practically an expert, a level that in my opinion would require a higher level of dedication that he could commit without detrement to his other skills. I doubt the average guardsman have more than low 50's: they could stick a pig with a bayonet, but not engage in sword duels.

QuoteHow much time do you reckon those expert soldiers and space marines spend shooting each day to shoot at that level?

a couple of hours on average or so I suppose

QuoteSo people who aren't that good at shooting should be issued with more powerful guns?  Seems like a waste of ammo to me...  If someone is a good shot, I'd say they're likely to use a reasonably powerful gun otherwise it's a waste of their talents.  In one guise Kaled uses his stubbers (and only has a knife) - if I'd only posted that version would his BS suddenly be more acceptable (putting aside any justification for the moment)?  But personally I see no good reason for him not to carry his bolt pistol when he's walking into a combat situation, any 'justification' otherwise would be inappropriate to the characters.

It's not a question of appropriateness I just find that the characters who have outstanding combat skill can often be justified as weilding a balancingly mundane weapon. It's not really important, esspecially not here as I like the bolt pistol, it's his Bs that I have an issue with.

QuoteIt might, but usually only when someone gets into old age - and he's anything but, more like middle aged really.  As for growing more cautious - I'd say that's more to do with what actions you declare for a character than their Speed.

Fair enough, he could just have a lower than average I for an Inquisitor, or not, I just think it would make him more interesting.

QuoteI'd say the ability to make that kind of shot with reasonable reliability was a decent justification for BS 60.

I can't really call on your RL Bs, I'd say Bs 60 is an above average shot for a soldier. If you are that good a shot then I agree, if not I disagree with that justification.

QuoteSo who would you put in the 80s and 90s

Well the truely superb, shooters who are to snipers what snipers are to normal people, Mad Larkin, Scaramanga and Legolas. And the creme of the space marine population.

Let's remember when talking about BS that it's very an inherently BSed statistic (pun intended).  I think everyone can agree that firing a rifle, a pistol and a grenade launcher are all very different experiences (let alone throwing in all the weapon types in 40K that don't have a modern analog). 

Given the range penalties that come with firing a pistol and the fact that Kaled will be firing pistols I think it's fine. 

To propose an actual solution to this, characters could have a proficiency score in a given weapon build (pistol, rifle, machine gun, etc) and weapon type (las, bolt, bullet) so that they could incur penalties/gain bonuses based on what they're using rather than having the streamlined BS system currently in place.

It's possible to integrate this system in a relatively streamlined fashion if you consider the fact that characters rarely (at least in my games) use different weapons than the one they're carrying.  This system would allow for lower base BSes but could represent a character's proficiency with a gun they've shot for over a century.

For the record though, I vote for keeping the current system.  While fun for advanced players that want to spend the time/have the time to spend, this level of detail could kill a game for newer players looking to pick it up.

Also, I think at this point you've adequately shown why you don't generally post characters Kaled.   

It has raised some interesting discussion points.

My 2 cents on the BS question is that 30 + 20 for training + 20 for experience gives him 70, and it's fair to add up to 10 for natural aptitude, or the extra century of experience.  Over 80 is the realm of exceptional individuals.

The basic percentage is for an unprepared shot - even one or two aim actions turns anyone dangerous.

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 07, 2010, 11:36:44 PM
a couple of hours on average or so I suppose

Does that tie in with how long professional soldiers spend on the firing range today?  I know police firearms officers don't spend anywhere near that long training...

QuoteFair enough, he could just have a lower than average I for an Inquisitor, or not, I just think it would make him more interesting.

In my experience, he does have a lower I than a lot of Inquisitors I play against - not all of them certainly, but many...

Quote from: Alyster Wick on March 08, 2010, 12:12:45 AM
Also, I think at this point you've adequately shown why you don't generally post characters Kaled.

Yeah, while it's interesting to discuss a character on here and hear other people's opinions, at the end of the day I'm not going to change my character's profile as a result of the discussion as I still think he seems about right for the people I actually play against.

I've always found Kaled to be a fine character to play against

granted the bolt gun is a threat

but then it should be they are the most dangerous guns in the imperium are they not?

but as a Character I've had multiple levels of characters go toe to toe with him and most come out ok(ish)

besides I'll always remember the bolt round to the head....

Quote from: Kaled on March 08, 2010, 07:11:10 AM
Does that tie in with how long professional soldiers spend on the firing range today?  I know police firearms officers don't spend anywhere near that long training...

Well no, but these aren't modern soldiers or just regular guardsmen, for whom I'd guess, guess mind you, a day range training every fortnight or so, and would assign a Bs of 50-65. Space marines have no free time and are either in battle, praying or training at any time.

And imperial guardsmen don't rotate operations in the same way that modern soldiers do. I'd wouldn't be suprised if the elite guardsmen, when not in battle, would maintain one or two full days on ranges each week. Baring in mind that these men are all natruely exceptional soldiers anyway, so would be better shots than most for the same amount of training. How much of Kaleds skill is nature, how much is nurture.

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 08, 2010, 05:28:00 PM
Space marines have no free time

I'm pretty sure that daily schedule of activites that was in one of the codices or wherever said that they have a whole 15 minutes of free time each day! ;)

I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this issue - your vision of the training and capabilities of soldiers in the 41st millenium is slightly different to mine and is reflected in the stats we'd give our characters.  All these recent discussions just emhasise the fact that despite talk of a 'Conclave Standard', there is no such thing - I play using characters at a standard that seems roughly on a par with the people I play against, you prefer lower stats (for most characters), and we're both a bit below the ones in the back of the rulebook.

I might try what you suggested earlier, breaking each stat down quite thoroughly, and suggesting what they might represent. I think it would be nice if there was some sort of conclave standard, though it may be impravticle. Doesn't hert to try though.

Out of interest, what Bs would you assign a space marine, and what about a stormtrooper?

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 08, 2010, 06:04:22 PM
I might try what you suggested earlier, breaking each stat down quite thoroughly, and suggesting what they might represent. I think it would be nice if there was some sort of conclave standard, though it may be impravticle. Doesn't hert to try though.

But what would be the point?  And whose standard would you write it to?  It's obvious from the discussions we've had recently that everyone has a slightly different opinion of what is correct - so unless everyone was going to convert their characters to fit some agreed upon standard it wouldn't really change anything.  All you'd really end up with is a guide that would be perfect for anyone playing a game against you, but if they came to play a game against me we'd be back in this argument about what value is appropriate.  And I can't see everyone changing their characters to fit some standard, because a lot of people play in their own gaming group rather than against members of the 'Clave - so you'd still have differing opinions clashing.

QuoteOut of interest, what Bs would you assign a space marine, and what about a stormtrooper?

Looking at my character profiles, my marine has a BS or around 80 and my stormtrooper types range from mid to low 60's to mid 70s, with higher values normally being reserved for people like my Ordo Sicarius operative.

I'll try to thrash out the range of opinions, see if we can reach an approximate concensus. Most all of us but importance on the stats defined at the beginning of the LRB, so there shouldn't be that much of a difference. I don't think that there are other sources of what stats mean, given that people turn to our opinion on the archetype profiles at the back. This should mean that we don't have much of a reason not to adjust our veiws on stats towards an average, esspecially as these moves will be minimal for the most part.

Your take on space marine Bs is negledgebly different to mine, though it surprises me that theat of the stormtrooper is so lower than the Inquisitor! It's the same as I'd have put it though.

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on March 08, 2010, 07:12:16 PM
I'll try to thrash out the range of opinions, see if we can reach an approximate concensus.

But wasn't that the point of the 'Conclave standard' thread we tried a while ago?  The problem is not so much the lack of information, but the wide variation in the interpretation of that information - for example our discussion of what is meant when it says 'A competent human's WS would be between 50 and 60'..

QuoteThis should mean that we don't have much of a reason not to adjust our veiws on stats towards an average, esspecially as these moves will be minimal for the most part.

But why would anyone adjust the stats of their character unless everyone else is going to be playing to the same 'standard'?  And unless you're extremely clever about the definitions you use, we'll still end up with different people interpretting things differently.  Maybe I'm wrong and you'll pull it off, but it's something a lot of people have tried in the past yet we're still here having the same discussions...

Quoteit surprises me that theat of the stormtrooper is so lower than the Inquisitor! It's the same as I'd have put it though.

Some of my stormtrooper types have different strengths, so some are better at shooting and other's talent lies elsewhere - and other Inquisitors in my collection have even higher BSs.