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Green stuff vs milliput

Started by traveller, May 13, 2011, 11:54:01 PM

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traveller

So basically, I have my models now and I was wondering what people use for sculpting. I have only a very small amount of experience in sculpting at 28m scale using GS so I really have no clue. Since my models are arriving in dribs and drabs the first model that has arrived will need a big old coat sculpting on her, ideally flowing out away from her body (fairly ambitious but what is the point if you don't aim high?) as well as a fair few other things which will be more stuck on her.

As well as any advice on the different modelling putties/clays/whatever there is out there I would greatly appreciate any general advice on flowing clothing sculpting, as I said I haven't really done this before, and looking at some of the ridiculous models on here I guess you guys have.

Thank you and WIP pictures will follow soon I hope
The future is in your hands. We are the future, so we will take your hands...

MarcoSkoll

Milliput is not a favourite of mine - as it's a clay based putty, it acts very differently to green stuff, with a tendency to both crumble and not stick very well.

I keep it around as cheap bulking material, but I'd only use it for detail work in very specific circumstances (and even then, usually mixed with an epoxy putty). For detail work, it's better to use an epoxy putty (Green Stuff, Pro-Create, Brown Stuff, etc).
Conventional opinion is Green Stuff is better for "softer" shapes, Brown Stuff for "harder" shapes, and Procreate is somewhere between the two.

Myself, I mostly use GS - there was a period when I tried ProC, but I swapped back after not all that long.
A lot of people will tell you how much better ProC is than GS, but what I did was go from a putty I was happy with and knew well to something that was quite disconcertingly different.

So, personally, I think it's worth taking one putty and learning it well, rather than trying to dabble in several. If you think you know GS reasonably well, stick with it, but if not, it could be worth switching to ProC and trying to build up experience with that instead.

On the note of sculpting clothing, my biggest hint is to know what you're trying to sculpt. Find reference pictures. Make reference pictures if you have to.

There are two ways to sculpt a flowing coat - building it up from the model in thick layers, avoiding any undercut
(which you will have seen on many GW models, as it saves on casting the coat as a separate piece)... or doing it as a thin sheet over an armature.

The first is easier, the second is more realistic. However, if you're not a confident putty pusher, easy is probably a better bet. It'll save you a lot of frustration, as well as giving you a better chance of not horribly messing it up (and I admit it can take me more than one attempt to do at times!)
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Kaled

Marco's advice is good when it comes to putty - personally I use Milliput for bulking out shapes, brown stuff for armour and other hard things, and ProCreate for general use.

I would disagree with Marco about which method of making a coat is easier - I find making a sheet of ProCreate far easier. Smooth it onto a sheet such as a sandwich bag in a layer about 1mm thick, cut it to shape and leave for half an hour. Then peel it off the sheet and position it on your model (wearing latex gloves will avoid fingerprints). If you've left the sheet of ProCreate long enough it will be easy to bend into shape without ruining. But part of learning to sculpt is trying things out and seeing what works best for you so don't be afraid to try something and if, on reflection, you're not happy with it then peel off the putty and try again.

Alternatively, an easy way to do a long coat is to use a metal foil such as that used to make tomato purée tubes. Simply cut it to shape, bend it so it flows how you want and stick it to the model. Then use greenstuff or whatever to blend it onto the model.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

MarcoSkoll

Well, for a free hanging coat (like with my Battle Sister's "loincloth"), yes, that is an easier option. But for a flowing coat (like I did with Commissar Leith), a thin sheet of putty won't be able to support its own weight and will need an armature - which makes the process a good deal more fiddly.

On the note of foil, I keep it around, but don't often use it. I initially tried foil for the Commissar's coat, but as it's pretty stiff, it wouldn't "flow" right, so I abandoned the idea.

However, one idea is to roll out a thin layer of putty on it, and use the stiffer foil as an armature for the putty.
You can then either draw in extra folds and ripples into the putty layer at this stage (clay shapers are good for this), or wait for it to harden and add the finer folds/ripples as a second layer. It won't undulate quite the same on the inside and out, but it should be mallet quality.

S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Kaled

You can definitely do a flowing coat like that of your Commissar with a sheet of putty and no armature. I've used that method for quite a few characters, such as the one I did for Valdez and Teunis. Putty will definitely hold it's own weight if you let it cure a bit longer before bending it to shape and keep adjusting it as it cures to make sure you get the shape you want (or lay it over some blutack that has about the right shape and will support it as it dries).
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Inquisitor Dionzi

Typically, I have 3 options available to me as I sculpt: green stuff, brown stuff and ProCreate.

For organic shapes, I mix green stuff in the following proportions of yellow/blue:
      -  50/50: rarely used, typically for bulking;
      -  60/40: typical sculpting mix;
      -  70/30: fine detail and flesh;

For weapons, I use either a 60/40 mix of brown/white or white/black for brown stuff and ProCreate respectively.  Brown stuff is something I typically use for armour detail, and it's important to note that brown stuff can be grainy and has ferrous material in the brown component, and is therefore magnetic.

When I use ProCreate, I use a white/black mix of 60/40 for nearly anything, but I also mix a similar proportion of brown or green stuff into the ProCreate mix depending on what I'm sculpting. If I'm sculpting hair, I mix brown stuff and ProCreate 50/50 (in 60/40 proportions) as a base, and anything that catches my fancy for detail.  I use a similar green stuff/ProCreate mix for sculpted bone and the like. Straight ProCreate is finicky to work with, but holds detail extremely well, and cures under heat; 100 degrees farenheit in an oven hardens any mixture with ProCreate in it in under 15 minutes!

For cloaks, I find that a 50/50 mix of 60/40 ProCreate and brown stuff works extremely well: it hardens quickly and can be built up swiftly. Remember too that as putty cures it can be manipulated to a certain extent.
SKYFALL MINIATURES

traveller

Thank you all, so a lot to think about when I head up to the modelling shop monday. I'm already starting to dread the whole thing, only the pictures in my head (and on paper) of how amazing the whole thing is going to be are what is keeping me going. I hope I can learn fast enough to live up to the pictures  ;D

I'm pretty much going for the Teunis effect. I'm hoping that the first model should be simple enough that I can use her as a learning experience before I get on to the more complicated conversions. Though for them I need a whole heap of stuff to turn up in the mail still...

I'm getting all excited now, look forward to posting my WIPs to be judged
The future is in your hands. We are the future, so we will take your hands...

Shannow

If you are modelling lots then your skill level will keep going up, just by slow practise and using advice from everyone on the 'clave my skill is so much better and my confidence to try new and complex things.

Sure you'll be fine  :)
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Time to die.

Vermis

#8
Milliput gets a bad rap.  True, it's a bit messier, crumblier, and isn't immediately so user-friendly, especially if you're used to green stuff, and with that big orange X*.  But once you get to know it a bit you can put on the revs.  A couple of tips to help that process along:

*Roll it between your fingers to mix, rather than mashing it.
*Mix some green stuff with it - helps make it a little less flaky and crumbly. (Conversely, a touch of milliput [or any other putty] can loosen up green stuff, make it less springy and blobby)
*Let it rest a while.  It's easier to work on it in stages.  Like most putties it's most sticky** and messy when it's freshly mixed - prime time for whacking it onto your sculpt or conversion.  As it cures it firms up nicely, holding together better and sticking less to your tools.  The more it cures the finer details you can work in it, up until and including what's known as the 'leather hard' stage.
*If using water, wet the tools just enough to prevent most sticking, but not so wet as to dissolve a lot of the stuff, create 'slip' and mess things up.  One of milliput's bigger problems, IMO, though it can help make smoothing the final surface fairly easy.  One way to address it is to use a piece of damp sponge in a shallow dish, and dab the tools in it to moisten them.

It also takes details and carves (before curing) well.  Afterwards it's rock-hard, easily dry-sculpted, and strong.  It's used by some mini sculptors - just not too many wargaming mini sculptors, where Tom Meier's green discovery still rules despite the procreate and polymer clay pretenders.  The Gabriel Blackburn mini posted here was sculpted in milliput, as are a lot of Andrea's minis.  As for myself, my main putty medium has been a GS/milliput mix for a couple of years.  Though with that, I admit I also don't trust (myself with) milliput enough to do the small, final details with it alone.

*It's labelled as an irritant.  Some people can have a reaction to it straight away, and some can be sensitized to it over time.  Thankfully I've never had a reaction to it myself.  Also, in it's defence, it's not the only putty with this potential problem.  IIRC one of the reasons Nick Bibby (google him) gave up sculpting miniatures was because he started having reactions to green stuff.

**My problem is sometimes to try to stop it sticking to things.  Mostly tools.  Also, I remember the time I tried press-moulding some hemispheres, using halved ping-pong balls lubricated with vaseline.   I had to rip apart the balls that contained milliput silver-grey and wonder where the heck the vaseline went, while the apoxie sculpt hemispheres popped right out.

Procreate's got a similar deal, in that it knocks you back down the learning curve if you're used to green stuff.  I remember my first time trying it, and how weird it felt.  And I know of some extremely good pro-sculptors, like Kev White, who tried it and went right back to green stuff.  But for others, and especially for beginners IMO (unused to any putty), it's a great alternative.  The 'memory' - the springy effect - of green stuff, particularly old, stale green stuff, is largely missing in procreate.  This makes it easier to smooth; easier to sculpt sharp details; and combined with it's softer consistency, easier to push around.  Details can also be more visible against the grey colour, rather than saturated green.

Brown stuff.  Virtually no memory; commonly used for sharp-edged objects like machines and weapons, as mentioned; commonly mixed with green stuff to reduce it's memory - as per one of my earlier points and the Hasslefree link (click on the workbench).  The price means you probably won't want to sculpt very large pieces or whole figures with it, though.

There are more, like the different types of milliput, the tamiya epoxy putties, A+B, and a few others.  Those'll probably drag this post out for another lecture's worth of rambling, but I'll mention apoxie sculpt.  It's another 'clay' type of putty, but specifically developed for sculpting rather than plumbing repairs, and it's less messy, less sticky, and softer than milliput.  Also beautifully smooth, and firms up well too.  Although it's also usually a bit crumbly and delicate for the smallest wargaming mini details, right after mixing, and the default colour's faint translucency doesn't help with that either.  Close alternatives are magic sculp (also used in a lot of non-wargaming minis) and cold clay.
The conversion monsters at the 40K tyranid forum Warpshadow.com are fond of it, if you want to go have a look (maybe when it's back up, at least).  Also, I have a blather about it in a small 'putty primer' here, though it badly needs an update.  If I get round to it, I'll probably post it to Mini Sculpture.

'Course, all of these depend - in differing amounts - on your wallet, your geographic location, and your own tastes and experiences.  Case in point for the latter: I built up a lot of the patter for these other putties based on my experiences with older, staler green stuff. (And it can get pretty tough and frustrating after a period of storage)  But I recently broke into a strip of fresh stuff and was very pleasantly surprised how easy it was to handle.  A lot closer to procreate.
If you get more, keep it in the freezer to keep it fresh.  Even better if you can find a supplier who does the same.  You say you're on a visit to the modelling shop, which I guess isn't GW, but I'll stick up a warning about GW's marked-up ticking-over GS anyway.  But in any case, if the GS is unresponsive, mix a bit of one of those other putties with it. ;)
www.minisculpture.co.uk - a place about pushing putty 'til it does what you want it.  Currently recuperating from being hackered and knackered.