Grapple pistol rules

[Damon]

I am relatively new to inquisitor. I Have been playtesting with a few 28mm models for a while and just recently bought my first 54mm characters. I have been browsing the conclave for some time now.

I like the idea of my bounty hunter character having a grapple pistol. I have devised some rough rules for it, which I would love some feedback on. Particularly the rules for firing at a character, which I think are a bit dodgy but not sure how to improve them.

Grapple Pistol (exotic)
May be used to scale walls. Aim to hit using normal BS. If successful, then the hook embeds itself in the wall. The firer can then activate the motor that will pull the firer up at a rate of 10 yards per action. (If over encumbered or carrying another person – rate is halved) Risky action – if failed roll a D6 and consult the table below:

1-2 – Just as the character reaches the top, the hook becomes loose, causing the character to fall the full distance. Firer must test nerve from now on before using the grapple pistol again.
3-4 – Halfway up the ascent, the hook dislodges, causing the character to fall half the distance. Firer must test nerve from now on before using the grapple pistol again.
5-6 – Just as the motor is activated the hook dislodges. No falling damage but the firer must test nerve from now on before using the grapple pistol again.

Range E (max range 30yards) – Dam – 2D6 – 1 Shot – Reload 2* – Weight 20 

Grapple pistol may only be reloaded if the firer is next to the hook and the motor has wound all the line back in. A successful strength test is needed to remove the grappling hook (1 action) then the pistol needs to be reset (1 action)

The grapple pistol may also be shot at another character. If it hits and causes damage it has managed to embed itself in the opponents armour or even flesh! The motor on the pistol can then be activated potentially dragging the target over. If the targets strength is lower than the firer's he is dragged at a rate of 10 yards per action towards him, if the firers strength is lower he is dragged instead! The target suffers -10 strength for the purpose of this test as he has a grappling hook embedded in him!

[MarcoSkoll]

I'm not sure about the Risky action table. It's a bit weird to declare in advance the effect it's going to have. If he's at the bottom, fails his risky action and gets a 1, then... the player might start to find excuses to do something else, because he knows when he reaches the top, he'll fall.
Better would be that on any risky action, he falls from wherever he is at the time.

I'd also say the movement rate is too fast. I'd cut it back to six yards an action, not only from game play concerns, but because would you really want to have to hold on to your grapple pistol while it's whisking you vertically at sprinting speed?

Dragging is potentially interesting, but I'd make it an opposed strength test. Firer and target make strength tests, whoever passes by less (or fails by more!) is dragged that turn.
You also need to deal with rules for removing the hook or cutting the cable, because I'm sure many people will want to do just that.

[Shannow]

It also seems a bit silly that the firer be dragged towards his opponent, it would seem more likely that the pistol be pulled from his hand than he dragged towards his target  grasping on to it

[SpanielBear]

Interesting stuff, and personally I like the idea of dragging a character with the grapple. As for letting it go, while I agree that is the most obvious move I also reckon there is a good proportion of characters out there that wouldn't care who was being moved, as long as the distance between themselves and their target was reduced... 

Vasily Smert Mk.II of Crisis Team Gilgamesh has a similar item in his inventory, although in his case I had seen it more as a static rope that's fired up and then provides an extra hand-hold/route up, making scaling less risky. No fancy motors involved, but then I suppose having what is essentially a harpoon being fired from a sniper rifle would be totally unbalanced...
...
...
Sadly.

[Damon]

Thanks for all the advice 

Better would be that on any risky action, he falls from wherever he is at the time

Yeah that seems to make more sense.

I'd also say the movement rate is too fast. I'd cut it back to six yards an action, not only from game play concerns, but because would you really want to have to hold on to your grapple pistol while it's whisking you vertically at sprinting speed?

Fair enough. I wasn't sure what speed to set it at. 6 seems more reasonable.

Dragging is potentially interesting, but I'd make it an opposed strength test. Firer and target make strength tests, whoever passes by less (or fails by more!) is dragged that turn.
You also need to deal with rules for removing the hook or cutting the cable, because I'm sure many people will want to do just that.

The opposed strength test seems like a better way of doing it. Thanks.

In terms of removing the hook. The character takes a strength test and if successful the hook is removed. However removing the hook also  takes a large chunk of flesh out so the character also suffers D6 damage and the location counts as bleeding.
For cutting the wire. Makes a close combat attack against the wire. If the damage caused is greater than the armour value of the wire then it snaps. Not sure what armour value to give the wire. It would have to be pretty tough to hold the weight of a person and pull them up.

It also seems a bit silly that the firer be dragged towards his opponent, it would seem more likely that the pistol be pulled from his hand than he dragged towards his target  grasping on to it

I can see your point, but I agree with SpanielBear  in that some characters would just want to get closer to their target regardless of who was being dragged. I think maybe a choice should be allowed. If the firer would be dragged, he may chose to try and hold on or let go of the gun. If he wants to hold on then he muss pass a successful strength test to keep his grip. If he wants to let go he can but he (obviously) loses his gun.


Thanks again. Do these changes seem better?

[Ynek]

Just because I like writing rules, I have the following as a suggestion-

I'm assuming that the grappling hook is more like Batman's grapplers, which actually embed themselves in a structure (By piercing it, and then expanding like an umbrella), rather than simply hooking onto it. (like the old wall-scaling ropes, which were a little like a thrown anchor...

I would imagine that the rules for both would be fairly different. For instance, an 'anchor' grappling hook would only be able to hook onto something with hard edges that it can hook onto, and would probably not be quite as secure. The former, the 'batman umbrella' hooks would actually need to penetrate the wall before actually being able to climb it, so a damage roll might be required. (A rough-and-ready version of which, I have scrawled below...)

When you fire a 'batman umbrella' grappling hook at a wall, perhaps you still require to roll damage, and if you succeed to do any damage at all, the grappler is firmly rooted in the structure, and thus, can safely pull you up. (Assuming you passed your risky action.)

If for instance, you fire at an adamantium-plated reinforced concrete wall (AV10), and roll snake-eyes for your damage roll, your grappler would just ping right off.

If you wanted a more advanced set of rules, then perhaps the grappler needs to do 1 point of damage for every 20 units of weight that it's supposed to be able to lift. For instance, a S60 T40 character will weigh 50. (Using the house rule of S+T/2) Therefore, they require to do 3 points of damage on any structure to have a safe rope. Perhaps if the grappler does damage, but doesn't do enough, the character falls as you have described in your failed risky actions...

[Damon]

When you fire a 'batman umbrella' grappling hook at a wall, perhaps you still require to roll damage, and if you succeed to do any damage at all, the grappler is firmly rooted in the structure, and thus, can safely pull you up. (Assuming you passed your risky action.)

Good idea. I think that makes more sense than just a BS test. Thanks

If you wanted a more advanced set of rules, then perhaps the grappler needs to do 1 point of damage for every 20 units of weight that it's supposed to be able to lift. For instance, a S60 T40 character will weigh 50. (Using the house rule of S+T/2) Therefore, they require to do 3 points of damage on any structure to have a safe rope. Perhaps if the grappler does damage, but doesn't do enough, the character falls as you have described in your failed risky actions...

I might try these out at some point but for now I think I'll just try out the simpler rules.

[Shannow]

The reason I dislike the being pulled towards rule is because if you have presumably outstretched your arm to fire the grapple into another character then pull him in but he's stronger than you, you won't be pulled serenely towards him but are more likely to be pulled flat on your face (as the gun is more than likely above your centre of gravity) as you probably didn't expect that!

If they want to hold on I would suggest an initiative test to do so.

Still great idea though!

[MarcoSkoll]

Not sure what armour value to give the wire. It would have to be pretty tough to hold the weight of a person and pull them up.

Not really. Being able to support weight doesn't necessarily mean it resists damage well.

For examples, eggshells are notoriously easy to damage, yet can support huge weights. One and a half tonnes of car supported on eggs.

In theory, eggs can take over 200 Newtons each along the axis (and an astounding 400 horizontally). So for the nearly 400 eggs they had, only two cars was a pittance. Done well, they could have had ten cars stacked up. Yet, they finish by cutting through the eggs with cheese wire.

I might give it a lowish AV (because it is possible to cut rope with a knife), but it can take X points of damage before being cut (because a knife probably isn't going to cut through it in one swipe).

because if you have presumably outstretched your arm to fire the grapple into another character then pull him in...

You'd be holding on and braced, not standing like an Olympic pistol shooter. You're still expecting to have to hold on like hell, not to shoot and the guy to softly glide over towards you.

Equal and opposite reaction, and all that.

[Shannow]

@ MArco, I still think that as in a tug of war, when it get to the point that you've been outpulled you would just fly forwards, in this instance when something gives it would give big IMO obviously.

Anyway I will stop arguing my smaller and smaller corner

[SpanielBear]

I reckon that realistically speaking you are absolutely right, Shannow. If you were GMing the scenario in which the Grappling Gun was unveiled, your opinion would be deffered to as is right and proper. However, my own take on this is that the cinematic side of Inquisitor should be celebrated here. For example:

The cultist was breathing hard, and his bare feet ached from pounding against the rockcrete floor. But, praise Tzeentch, that Imperial fool was falling behind at last. Next left, and the open street turned into The Warrens, a maze of slums that was full of places for him to hide. Lie low, a few months maybe, and then time to start agai-
SCHTHUNK!
A lance of agonising pain dropped him to his knees, a sudden and terrifying numbness spreading up his leg. He looked down to see a long metal bolt lodged through his calf. With shaking fingers, he started to try to pull it free
"I DON'T THINK SO, HERETIC!"
The voice boomed out, echoing off the abandoned hab blocks that surrounded them. A rope attached to the bolt suddenly pulled taught. Wailing and weeping, fingers scrabbling against the hard floor, the cultist was dragged towards justice.

Something like that, anyway. 
Also, anyone using the words "get over here!" should be penalised...

[Shannow]

Also, anyone using the words "get over here!" should be penalised...

Whereas I would reward them

The above scenario is very cool, what i worry about is when the cultist is stronger But yeah I am taking the fun our of this aren't I,,, sorry guys!

[Damon]

Thanks for all the help guys 

Here's the amended set of rules based on your suggestions:


Grapple Pistol (exotic)
May be used to scale walls. Aim to hit using normal BS. If successful then roll for damage and if this exceeds the AV of the wall then the hook embeds itself in the wall. The firer can then activate the motor that will pull the firer up at a rate of 6 yards per action. (If over encumbered or carrying another person – rate is halved). This is a risky action, and on any risky action he will fall from wherever he is at the time.

Range E (max range 30yards) – Dam – 2D6 – 1 Shot – Reload 2* – Weight 20 

Grapple pistol may only be reloaded if the firer is next to the hook and the motor has wound all the line back in. A successful strength test is needed to remove the grappling hook (1 action) then the pistol needs to be reset (1 action).

The grapple pistol may also be shot at another character. If it hits and causes damage it has managed to embed itself in the opponents armour or even flesh! The motor on the pistol can then be activated potentially dragging the target over. The firer and target make strength tests and whoever passes by less, or fails by more is dragged towards the other. The target suffers -10 strength for the purpose of this test as he has a grappling hook embedded in him! If the firer would be dragged, he may chose to try and hold on or let go of the gun. If he wants to hold on then he muss pass a successful strength test to keep his grip. If he wants to let go he can but he (obviously) loses his gun.

The target may chose to try and remove the hook or cut the wire. If he wishes to remove the hook, he takes a strength test and if successful the hook is removed. However removing the hook also takes a large chunk of flesh out so the character also suffers D6 damage and the location counts as bleeding. For cutting the wire. Target makes a close combat attack against the wire. The wire has an AV of 3 and requires 4 damage to be done to it before it snaps.

Will playtest these and see how it goes Thanks again for the advice

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

Personally, given Imperial architecture's tendency to the gothic and embellished, I would see little point in attempting to penetrate the surface when there is so much for a hook to catch on - not to mention the forces involved in trying to do so with some of the materials used - even concrete, if you were to attempt to fire something which must embedd itself firmly enough to take a shock loading amounting to approximately 100kg dropping sharply onto it... The forces involved are huge and they would pretty much make a mockery of human flesh and most of the highest grade armours out there...

I would therefore stick with a grappling hook which can catch rather than a ferrocrete harpoon.

I wouldn't bother with rules in quite the same depth - climbing using it would be a risky action but it allows you to scale any structure as if there were a ladder would be as complex as I'd go... And then firing it at a person would have the effect of a shotgun loading beanbags (because the hook wouldn't penetrate)...

I'd also reload it using cartridges which contain line and hook - you're running away from someone then your line is left where you climbed (giving them a chance to follow) but then again... your line is left where you climbed (giving you a chance to cut it as they climb  ).

[Kaled]

It strikes me that there's plenty of scope here for more than one type of grapple pistol. Both ideas sound good to me (in principle at least, I confess that I haven't looked into the details).