Author Topic: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?  (Read 20637 times)

Offline Kaled

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2009, 07:05:49 PM »
Of course, the other problem in pick-up games is that it is difficult to judge the 'power-level' of an opponent's character.  Their character might seem over-powered as he guns down half your warband, but his expert ability with firearms might be balanced by an ineptitude in close-combat which you don't know about because you never got close enough to engage him in a sword fight.  And usually I wouldn't show an opponent my character sheets - if you want to know if my guy with the flashy sword is an expert or just a show-off then you'll have to challenge him to a fight!.  And while theoretically, the GM could 'calibrate' the characters in a pick-up game, but usually there isn't time.

If we dodge around the exact definition of 'everyday knowledge' for now, which character archetypes would you say would have notably more or less everyday knowledge than normal?
Well, I'd suggest that as a benchmark, your average graduate from a Schola Progenium would have a Sagacity in the region of 50-60, the range for an educated human as given in the rulebook.  That range could also represent an intelligent character who has almost no practical knowledge (if his knowledge is very specialised, then the GM should give a bonus to his Sg in tests involving that knowledge); whereas an intelligent character with a fairly wide range of (useful) knowledge should have an Sg in the 80s.  And if, as you say, scholarly Inquisitors are the brightest of the bunch, then they should have an Sg in to 90s.  Below the benchmark, I'd say some where around 30-35 would represent your average citizen (not particularly intelligent and uneducated), with less than 30 being used for people who could be described as stupid.  

At the end of the day, (like all stats) Sagacity is an abstraction, and as long as the player knows what his character's Sg stat represents, then he and the GM should be able to agree on whether the character uses his basic Sg stat or gets a bonus/penalty to it, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Incidentally, I just dug out POs thread from the old 'Clave (the one Charax refered to at the start of this thread) concerning the stats of an average citizen, the so called 'citizen on the Claphamus road-train'.  The consensus was roughly stats of 30 across the board, bearing in mind that we have already been given some stats for a normal/ordinary human in the rulebook.  I.e. BS=20-30, T=40-50, I=30-40, Wp=35, Nv=20 (which almost, but not quite, tallies with 1337inquisitor's charts).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 07:07:51 PM by Kaled »
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Offline Tullio

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2009, 11:47:07 PM »
Sagacity is, in my opinion, the second most woolly stat in the entire game, after Initiative. I think we're all more or less in agreement that it represents some kind of general knowledge and logic skills, but to use it as a barometer of intelligence is absurd.

Think of it this way. A Magos might nail an IQ test, but since when do IQ tests test intelligence? They test logic and mathematical thinking, not brainpower per se. The same thing applies to Inquisitor - some characters will have tremendous breadth of knowledge on specific subjects but have no idea how to buy a shell-full of recyk water. To this end, I personally wouldn't quibble so much over Sg value as to what it should be used for.

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« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 03:22:01 PM by Tullio »

Offline Aidan

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2009, 04:46:14 AM »
I agree that Sagacity is a very fuzzy area and hardly a 0-100 meter of intelligence. Natural intelligence, experience, and common sense should all be taken into account. IQ alone cannot be taken into account - I have had an IQ test by a professional psychologist, and so I can tell you it means very little.

If SG were just IQ/2 I would comfortably be sitting on SG 75-80 without any practical knowledge in many fields of modern day existence, not to mention in the vast and physics-defying realm of the 41st millennium. Alternatively, what would you give an uneducated but intelligent person from the underclass? Or someone with an education in advanced mathematics and science, fluent in ten languages, but with no problem solving skills?

The only was I can really see sagacity being abused is when people think that a low (say, <50) sagacity means their character is stupid. It does not. Inquisitor characters don't have and intelligence statistic.

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Offline Dust King

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2009, 06:55:12 AM »
As far as I can tell Sg is mainly used for the manipulation of mechanical and electronic devices (there are other uses but these are the main ones). Techpriests are likely to be skilled beyond all others in these respects. At least thats how I've always seen it.

Offline precinctomega

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2009, 08:32:09 AM »
Here's the INQ2 approach to Sagacity, which makes things a bit more colourful:

INTELLIGENCE
In order to work out a problem, a character may be required to take an intelligence test.  This is a test of the character’s raw intellect and isn’t dependent upon technical or specialist knowledge (for which, see knowledge below).  To pass an intelligence test a character must roll equal to or under his Sagacity.  Note that, for especially fiendish puzzles or to understand a particularly garbled or indistinct message, a GM may wish to impose additional penalties upon the character.

KNOWLEDGE
When faced with a question of knowledge – that is, a problem based on technical or specialist learning or training – a character can be called upon to take a knowledge test.  To pass a knowledge test a character must roll equal to or under his Sagacity minus 50.  Note that, for characters with (or without) a particular expertise in a given field, a GM may wish to confer additional bonuses (or penalties) to the roll.

BRAINS
Some tests are based upon a combination of intelligence and knowledge.  To make a brains test, the character must first take a knowledge test.  The degree of success or failure is then applied to a subsequent intelligence test.

Example: Inquisitor Shyloque must work out how to activate the teleportation device or be incinerated when the plasma reactor detonates.  The GM determines that this is a brains test.  So Shyloque takes a knowledge test.  Shyloque has a Sagacity of 86, so would normally have to roll 36 or under.  However, he has just watched a traitorous Tech-priest use the device to escape, so the GM gives him a +10 bonus to his knowledge test.  He rolls 80, so he failed the test by 34.  He must now take an intelligence test.  This is taken at a penalty of -34, so Shyloque must roll 52 or under.  He rolls a 22 and the teleporter hums into life...

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Of course, there are also special abilities - such as the new "Loremaster" ability - that affect these, as well.

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Online MarcoSkoll

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2010, 07:41:55 PM »
The forum hasn't seemed incredibly active of late (not bad, but still a little slow at time), so what I'm going to do is post a few things over the next few days with various ideas and such to try and promote a little more discussion.
Here and now, that means I'm kicking up this topic with some of my thoughts on stats and statlines.

~~~~~

I think we're all agreed on the 0-100 scale representing the rough limits of natural human skill. I think it's also reasonable to say a stat of 50 represents a degree of reasonable competence - not necessarily human average, but someone who at least has at least a basic grounding in the area and does a little work to maintain themselves there.
This therefore clearly demonstrates that we're not looking at a linear scale - while I might call myself S50, I am clearly not half as strong as a human can physically be.

I've been working on it for a while, and I think it's reasonable to say that in the way people stat their characters (and to quite a large extent, how the game plays), it seems to act rather like a logarithmic scale.

In a similar way to the dB scale, a change of 20 points on a stat seems to work out at around a rough doubling or halving of competence in that given area. That is to say, an S70 character is roughly twice the strength of an S50 character, a WS 60 character twice as skilled as a WS 40 character, a BS 55 character half as skilled as a BS 75 and so on and so forth.

I'm not pretending it's necessarily a perfect match, as we're looking at a certain amount of abstraction anyway - but it seems to be a decent rule of thumb that gets things away from being a linear scale.

Any ideas on this theory?
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Offline Corrino

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2010, 02:21:00 AM »
I've been working on it for a while, and I think it's reasonable to say that in the way people stat their characters (and to quite a large extent, how the game plays), it seems to act rather like a logarithmic scale.

In a similar way to the dB scale, a change of 20 points on a stat seems to work out at around a rough doubling or halving of competence in that given area. That is to say, an S70 character is roughly twice the strength of an S50 character, a WS 60 character twice as skilled as a WS 40 character, a BS 55 character half as skilled as a BS 75 and so on and so forth.

I'm not pretending it's necessarily a perfect match, as we're looking at a certain amount of abstraction anyway - but it seems to be a decent rule of thumb that gets things away from being a linear scale.

Any ideas on this theory?

I think you have hit the nail on the head with that interpretation. However I would also say that this the gap decreases the higher up the scale you go, and increases the lower you go.

i.e.
a WS 95 character twice as skilled as a WS 85 character - upper scale
a WS 60 character twice as skilled as a WS 40 character - mid/normal scale
a WS 35 character twice as skilled as a WS 10 character - lower scale

Offline Ynek

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2010, 07:05:24 PM »
I've been working on it for a while, and I think it's reasonable to say that in the way people stat their characters (and to quite a large extent, how the game plays), it seems to act rather like a logarithmic scale.

In a similar way to the dB scale, a change of 20 points on a stat seems to work out at around a rough doubling or halving of competence in that given area. That is to say, an S70 character is roughly twice the strength of an S50 character, a WS 60 character twice as skilled as a WS 40 character, a BS 55 character half as skilled as a BS 75 and so on and so forth.

Well, for guesswork, you've actually come pretty close to the actual statistical backbone of how to apply percentages (such as Inq. Stats) in this manner.

It's very easy to just look at WS 50 and WS 100, or WS 40 and WS 80, or WS 45 and WS 90, and assume that the larger number is twice as good as the smaller number, just because it's twice the numerical value. The truth is that percentages of success are actually always logarithmic regardless of whether you intend them to be or not.

When comparing these statistics, you don't just double the chance of success. You halve the chance of failure. So, for instance, WS 75 is twice as good as WS 50, since WS 50 has a 50% chance of failure, and WS 75 has a 25% chance of failure. And since 25% is half of 50%, WS 75 is twice as good as WS 50.

I've always been very poor at explaining things, so here's a few other examples to hopefully illustrate things a bit better.

WS 40 is half as good as WS 70 (40 = 60% chance of failure. Therefore, 30% (half of 60%) chance of failure is twice as good. 30% away from a hundred is 70. Ergo, WS 70 is twice as good as WS 40)

WS 80 is half as good as WS 90 (80 = 20% chance of failure. Therefore, 10% (half of 20%) chance of failure is twice as good. 10% away from a hundred is 90. Ergo, WS 90 is twice as good as WS 90)

WS 98 is half as good as WS 99 (98 = 2% chance of failure. Therefore, 1% (half of 2%) chance of failure is twice as good. 1% away from a hundred is 99. Ergo, WS 99 is twice as good as WS 98.)

It's also interesting to note that even if your WS is double your opponents, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are twice as good in combat as them. The logarithmic statistics come into play once more:

WS 30 is half as good as WS 65 (30 = 70% chance of failure. Therefore, 35% (half of 70%) chance of failure is twice as good. 35% away from a hundred is 65%. Ergo, WS 65 is twice as good as WS 40 in spite of the fact that WS 65 is more than twice WS30.)

Or a more extreme example:
WS 16 is half as good as WS 58 (16 = 84% chance of failure. Therefore, 42% (half of 84%) chance of failure is twice as good. 42% away from a hundred is 58%. Ergo, WS 58 is twice as good as WS 16, in spite of the fact that 58 is more than twice WS16.)

And I'll shut up now. :P
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 07:57:41 PM by Ynek »
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Offline precinctomega

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2010, 07:47:20 PM »
Nice stuff.

For info, you might like to know that INQ2 treats the scale of stats as 00-99 absolute.  That is, nothing and no one gets a stats higher than 99 under any circumstances.

Instead of stats of 100+, the rules take the approach of exception abilities, by which I mean abilities (and equipment) that grant exceptions from punitive rules.  Now, these already exist (Ambidextrous, Hipshooting and Gunfighter are all classic examples of exception abilities), so it shouldn't come as a shock to realize that one character with BS 78 is not the equal in shooting to another character with the same BS but who also has those three aforementioned abilities.  INQ2, though, takes a slightly more structured and logical approach, trying to provide equivalent exception abilities for all relevant tests.

Back in September, in my post above, I mentioned the Loremaster ability, which is an example in question.  A character with the Loremaster (Teleportation) ability, for example, would ignore the -50 modifier when making a Knowledge test to operate a teleporter.

For an example of how this applies to characters with stats in the 100+ range at the moment, look at Eoin Whelan's Space Marines article in DM2, which illustrates the principle perfectly.  Eoin's marines are, if anything, tougher than the ones in the rulebook as all-round warriors.  They just can't punch holes in the sides of Land Raiders.

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Online MarcoSkoll

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2010, 10:33:15 PM »
When comparing these statistics, you don't just double the chance of success. You halve the chance of failure.
While an improvement, I'm not a big fan of the idea of "considering the chance of failure" instead - because it almost has the opposite problem.

That is, that WS 0 is then half  the skill of WS 50, and that implies that "competence" is only twice as good as someone who hasn't the faintest idea of what this funny pointy bit of shiny metal with hurty edges is.

For an example of how this applies to characters with stats in the 100+ range at the moment, look at Eoin Whelan's Space Marines article in DM2, which illustrates the principle perfectly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do the Marines with the Biscopea not normally have a 100+ Strength Stat?
Basic strength in the 60-80 range, plus 40...?

Yeah, the toughness is now sub 100, and the Strength is a lot lower than in the LRB, but it's still (typically) in triple digits.
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Offline Ynek

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2010, 01:46:04 AM »
That is, that WS 0 is then half  the skill of WS 50, and that implies that "competence" is only twice as good as someone who hasn't the faintest idea of what this funny pointy bit of shiny metal with hurty edges is.

Well, to get really statistical about it, when comparing characters who are at the low end of the spectrum, you would look at your weapon skill 50 fella, and then at your WS 1 fella, and you would know that WS 50 is 50 times better than WS 1 (as he has fifty times the chance of success). Calculating "how good" someone is based on their chances of failure is really only for the higher-end stats.

The point that I was trying to make is that you don't need to go over 100 to have someone "twice as good" as someone else. By having half the chance of failure, WS99 is twice as good as WS98, and thus, you don't need to have a WS196 character just because you wanted someone who was twice as good.
 
(But just to nitpick, using my (admittedly flawed) logarithmic comparison spectrum scale illustrated in my earlier post, WS50 isn't twice as good as WS 0. 0%, like 100%, is an infinite. Therefore, WS 50 is infinitely better than WS0, and WS 100 is infinitely better than any other weapon skill, since there are either no chances of success, or no chances of failure. This means that anyone with a chance of success is infinitely better than 0, (How many times do you need to multiply zero by to get 50?) Ergo, WS 0 is not half as good as WS 50. :P )


Correct me if I'm wrong, but do the Marines with the Biscopea not normally have a 100+ Strength Stat?
Basic strength in the 60-80 range, plus 40...?

Yeah, the toughness is now sub 100, and the Strength is a lot lower than in the LRB, but it's still (typically) in triple digits.

Well, if I recall correctly, they simply get a +40 modifier to all strength tests, as opposed to having +40 strength. So, in practical terms, they do have a strength stat of over 100, but when we consider that most strength tests have negative modifiers attached to them, it isn't anything like as broken as the old "200" strength in the LRB.

(So, for instance, lifting a crate at weight 70 would be a strength test at -70. Marine has a strength of 80, but adds 40 for the biscopia. So, overall, he needs to roll less than 50 to succeed in lifting the crate.)
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Online MarcoSkoll

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2010, 02:37:24 AM »
Therefore, WS 50 is infinitely better than WS0, and WS 100 is infinitely better than any other weapon skill.
Ah, now that's an interesting idea. What happens if you multiply the chances of success by the chances of failure?

That is, at WS 50, you have a 50% chance of success, but a 50% chance of failure - so multiplying them together gives you 25%.
At WS 20, a 20% chance of success, but an 80% chance of failure gives 16%.
At WS 10, a 10% Success and a 90% failure gives 9%.

Although, technically, that's giving a gradient, so you'd need to integrate then plot it as a graph to see the actual results...
I'm not necessarily saying that's quite how it does work, but it's an idea that "tends to a limit" and fits about the kind of figures we're looking at.

Quote
Well, if I recall correctly, they simply get a +40 modifier to all strength tests, as opposed to having +40 strength.
To quote directly: "The Space Marine’s Strength is increased by 40."
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Offline Ferran

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »

WS 98 is half as good as WS 99 (98 = 2% chance of failure. Therefore, 1% (half of 2%) chance of failure is twice as good. 1% away from a hundred is 99. Ergo, WS 99 is twice as good as WS 98.)


Sorry if this seems a stupid question as maths isn't exactly my raison d'etre, but does this mean that when a WS 99 character fights a WS 98 character, the 99 will win twice as many combats as the 98? The statement "WS 98 is half as good as WS 99" suggests this and seems fairly absolute.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 09:58:32 PM by Ferran »

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2010, 11:09:10 PM »
That is a good question. However, this seems to be a case of mathhammer vs reality. Yes statistically a character with WS99 has half the chance of failure compared to the character with WS98, but that doesn't mean they are twice as good against the lower stat. The 98% still has a damn good chance of defending himself, and possibly making a mess of the 99%. It's more the larger and mid-range differences that matter in the grand scheme of =I=.

Offline Ynek

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Re: What is the "Conclave Standard" character?
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2010, 01:44:50 AM »
Sorry if this seems a stupid question as maths isn't exactly my raison d'etre, but does this mean that when a WS 99 character fights a WS 98 character, the 99 will win twice as many combats as the 98? The statement "WS 98 is half as good as WS 99" suggests this and seems fairly absolute.

In theory, yes, since for every failure that the WS99 character has, the WS98 character will fail twice. However, in practice it doesn't quite work out that way... Since 95+ is an automatic fail, anyway. So in practice, they're both WS95.
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