Main Menu

News:

If you are having problems registering, please e-mail theconclaveforum at gmail.com

Validity of Aliens in Inquisitor

Started by Ramnok, October 27, 2011, 09:25:20 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ramnok

Well So far I've hit quite a few roadblocks on this forum where there are some who say eldar are as OP as space marines (which even in 40k terms that's not close..) So I've decided to get to the bottom of why Xenos are frowned upon for valid choices when clearly they are on par with imperial forces (stats wise).

TL;DR Why are (Insert alien race) frowned upon for full warband choices.

DapperAnarchist

Because 40K terms are irrelevant.

I could actually leave that sentence, and it would contain everything that is important. However, I would say, it is not Eldar that are OP. It is the idea of a Shadowseer, a Striking Scorpion, and Corsair Prince travelling together thats OP. Why is the Shadowseer not with his/her Troupe? Why is the Scorpion so far from his/her shrine? Why is the Corsair away from his/her ship? OP in Inquisitor is as much a question of story as of the tabletop.
Questions are a burden to others, answers a burden to oneself.

The Keltani Subsector  My P&M Thread - Most recent, INQ28!

MarcoSkoll

Short version: Because the game is very deliberately based around the Imperium!

Longer version: Inquisitor is not "Skirmish 40k". It's a narrative game designed to focus on the internal conflicts of the Imperium and its organisations. It is often hard to justify why aliens would care about why the tithes of *insert planet name here* have stopped or their interest in rooting out a Chaos cult in the depths of an underhive.

Also, you aren't entirely taking in what has been said. It's not just about the Eldar, it's about WHICH Eldar.  Many of the models you are using are purely front-line warriors who would have little place in the battle for the Emperor's soul. DapperAnarchist covers that reasonably well.

QuoteSo I've decided to get to the bottom of why Xenos are frowned upon for valid choices when clearly they are on par with imperial forces (stats wise)
Piffle. Even if you're basing this on 40k stats (which you absolutely should not, those stats are designed for game balance, not fluff), then your Shadowseer would be faster, more skilled, more dangerously armed and more stealthy than an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper.

In the fluff, Eldar are more than a match for a human, and that's how it is in Inquisitor too (I assume you've actually read the Eldar article?). This often applies to most xeno races in some fashion - be it Tau firepower, Eldar skill/speed or Ork toughness, these things all end up unbalancing gameplay unless approached in the right way.

The right way means finding individuals who might believably have reason to be interfering in human affairs. Striking Scorpions are not those individuals. Striking Scorpions are the Eldar's combat specialists in the same way as Space Marines are the Imperium's combat specialists, and they therefore have as much place in the game as the Astartes. That is to say, a rare one, and more often than not, probably GM controlled.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Kaled

I touched on this in the other thread, but part of the reason is that Inquisitor is an Imperium-centric game.  That's not to say xenos can't be used, but it's often harder to fit them into the story without them becoming the centre of the story and that can make other players feel their warband is sidelined. If you have a game set in Imperial space then it can be difficult to explain why xenos are there - or even how they're there without being killed by zealous citizens or enforcers. You also have to explain how your aliens move freely around Imperial space.

That all said, xenos warbands can be done - I have a couple, and in fact will be bringing one to the Conclave on Saturday, so don't feel too discouraged. There are pitfalls that you should try to avoid though, and any feedback you get will be well intentioned and usually given to help you avoid making the same mistakes that many of us have done in the past.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Ramnok

Pretty much I've laid out the story in a previous post, waiting on more comments to see what I come up with but the Corsair isn't a Prince just a regular pirate with a tiny ship. He would fall in line with guardians in terms of stats and abilities.

What I find is happening is people doubt the story already in place with many saying, "Can't do this" with very little "Here's how that can work.." AKA: Here's a striking scorpion, she could be away from her shrine for X reason with Y motives yanno, something that's a bit more productive to the argument.

It's very Negative (if you can feel that over the internet...) and as a person who's trying desperately to not have such a negative outlook, its really hard to push past that..

Also trying to find a list of alien races that could be used and have only found like 2 or 3 (Hrud.. so on so forth) The story line of course revolves around them but it in no way intrudes upon other's stories. I suppose I have to get back into the gaming portion to understand the lack of alien races.

Any other suggestions to those like me wishing to use different aliens in game? What can be done to ensure a smooth transition between an all hrud warband or perhaps a detachment of Gue'vesa with a Pathfinder.

Kaled

Quote from: Ramnok on October 27, 2011, 10:56:42 PM
It's very Negative (if you can feel that over the internet...) and as a person who's trying desperately to not have such a negative outlook, its really hard to push past that..
It's my bedtime so I don't have time to write much and so apologise if this seems a little terse. I just read this comment and similar ones you wrote in the other thread - I suggest you don't worry too much about what people here think of your idea. There's no need to get people on this forum to validate your characters unless you actually plan to play against them (have you checked the 'where we live' thread to see if there's anyone in your area? It's a long shot, but may be worth putting your name on the list). It doesn't matter if a few people don't like your warband ideas - you're on the edge of where the game works best so it's not surprising there's some controversy, why not post your story in the In Character forum and ask for feedback in the Out of Character forum - just as good models can win people over, so too can a good story.

Quoteperhaps a detachment of Gue'vesa with a Pathfinder.
As I said, I don't have time to properly answer, but this suggestion gives the impression that you're still thinking too much in terms of a 40k style wargame where you have a team out to kill the opposition. There's a reason the only Tau GW released was a Water Caste negotiator - to get away from the same old archetypes you see in games of 40k and explore the shadowy corners of the universe instead.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Ramnok

Ahhh... I think I see where you're coming from here.. So its okay to include a character that has a checkered background but within the realm of what you would find in the game. Aka say I did use a Gue'vesa IG he would be on par but just a single unit while he could have a couple of other desperados with him that show their checkered life as well... So if I did have my Striking Scorpion as my leader I would have to include others such as an Imperial Agent (I read in one of the Deathwatch books "way of the warrior" or somethin?  That the inquisitors do work with Eldar on occasion so its not far from improbable. The rest could be soldiers of common variety.

DapperAnarchist

Move away from the Soldier narrative. Yes, most people on the Inquisitor table will be able to fight - but they will not all be warriors. While every Inquisitor would know how to fight, not all would be warriors, or even be able to -  a crippled Inquisitor is still an Inquisitor.

I actually was going to contribute an idea, but I have unfortunately decided to steal it for myself! Thats a risk here... so I'll try another one. Lets say you have the Scorpion. He/she has a reason for travelling the stars without the rest of the shrine - perhaps its a lost shrine? Perhaps someone stole something from it? There are enough lost craftworlds to justify a few survivors out there. However, this Scorpion is on their own - the Eldar aren't spread out enough to support every last lonely warrior. Well, the Dark Eldar might, but this is more likely to amuse them than make then empathise. So, the Scorpion needs support. How about a cult that worships the Eldar? Such things are hinted at in various places, and make sense. To a population that was attacked by them, they may seem like demons - or to the oppressed, like saviours, as the Eldar way of war tends to ignore civilian populations and focus on military positions. The cult might have a priest, a scribe, some cult warriors, perhaps some sort of matriarch, that sort of thing.
Questions are a burden to others, answers a burden to oneself.

The Keltani Subsector  My P&M Thread - Most recent, INQ28!

Ramnok

I've read up on all the eldar fluff so far that was in dark magenta 3 but there isn't issue 4 and 5 yet? it was said to be covered in there..

I may rework my Eldar a bit but the general idea is the same, I'd like it to be all Eldar.  I may think of doing a Bonesinger or other type of eldar (scrounging around the eldar codex (old and new)) to see what I can come up with.

Kaled

Quote from: Ramnok on October 27, 2011, 11:55:58 PM
Ahhh... I think I see where you're coming from here.. So its okay to include a character that has a checkered background but within the realm of what you would find in the game. Aka say I did use a Gue'vesa IG he would be on par but just a single unit while he could have a couple of other desperados with him that show their checkered life as well...
That's not quite what I was getting at when I said 'shadowy corners' - what I meant was that Inquisitor is your opportunity to create characters not seen in the spotlight that is the 40k games and it's codices. Think about when Inquisitor was released - the game was full of character archetypes that existed hadn't come from the 40k codices (although some were subsequently shoehorned in to a codex) - for example arco-flagellants, death cultists, enforcers, even the IG were represented by a very atypical guardsman who was like nothing seen in any codex, Sgt. Stone.

By using the codex as your main inspiration you risk missing the Inquisitor ethos - it's not the battle on the front lines of a war zone (that's covered by the 40k game), it's the secret wars that take place behind the scenes. Yes you can shoehorn in a marine; but he's really more suited the front lines, not the secret war that is Inquisitor. The same goes for other battlefield archetypes such as aspect warriors, fire warriors, necron warriors etc. Hence why GW didn't release a Fire Warrior model for the game, they did a Water Caste envoy. Similarly, when I made a Tau warband I made my Fire Caste a secret agent - something very different to the Fire Warriors you see in games of 40k but something that fits into the battle that Inquisitor is trying to depict.

In Inquisitor an Administratum adept can change the course of a game and is just as valid a choice for a warband as an arbite. So as Dapper says, try to move away from the focus on soldiers and widen your spotlight to include other types of characters. Often the best warbands are that would have no place of the field of a 40k game. The same goes when choosing weapons and equipment - your games of Inquisitor aren't set on a front line battlefield environment, so your characters shouldn't be equipped for one. Games of Inquisitor shouldn't always just be straight up fights - some scenarios should be won through brains and guile so plan your warband accordingly. The more varied the archetypes in your warband, the more options you open up in game. If you only take soldier types, then combat is your only solution to any scenario and your games will always just be a straight skirmish and Inquisitor can be so much more than that.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Ramnok

Okay, I think I'm gathering a bit more of the pieces in my mind. While fighting is a part of the game, its not all a game can be. Kinda like core DND? So when I make choices of characters I should deviate as far away from codicies as possible. Aka choosing an eldar who's taken the path of the artisan would be better accepted then one of the aspect shrines.  Also this info comes from 40k online, I went there and tried to find it but it seems they've taken it down or moved it. I wish I had a pdf to print it from for you guys.. they were the culmination of tons of eldar fans who worked hard on putting stats to a codex and not making them overpowered but have advantages.

If there was a bonified list for eldar statistics even if its "Eldar warriors, Eldar civilians, Eldar pirates" ect ect... so on... it would be a great help.

Kaled

Quote from: Ramnok on October 28, 2011, 05:48:48 PM
Okay, I think I'm gathering a bit more of the pieces in my mind. While fighting is a part of the game, its not all a game can be. Kinda like core DND? So when I make choices of characters I should deviate as far away from codicies as possible. Aka choosing an eldar who's taken the path of the artisan would be better accepted then one of the aspect shrines.
That's pretty much it - I don't know much about DND, but yes the game is about more than combat so you should try to explore other areas of eldar life too. The trick you'll have is figuring out why an eldar on the path of the artisan is involved in the kinds of scenario that come up in Inquisitor games/campaigns - but if you can do that then I think you'll be onto a winner.

QuoteIf there was a bonified list for eldar statistics even if its "Eldar warriors, Eldar civilians, Eldar pirates" ect ect... so on... it would be a great help.
Why not make up and post some stats and start a discussion - GW gave us stats for rangers, pathfinders etc, so you could use those as a starting point. I'm sure between us we could come up with something good...
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Quickdraw McGraw

I believe what Kaled had said earlier pretty much hits the nail on the head. I made the mistake when I was younger to believe that Inquisitor was just a large scale 40k battle game.  When asked to GM a group game at my local hobby shop.  I read  the book through 3 times and began to feel much different about it.  It all became clear to me this game was intended to be enjoyed in a "cold war" scenario/setting. 

I don't have an issue with Aliens in warbands.  I have a problem with all Alien warbands.  It's not that it's broken or anything like that.  Being a GM for years in other RPG type games I talk to my players about their characters and in my mind try to understand why they think and do as they do.  It's difficalt to get into the head of a character when the player doesn't truly understand or relate to that character.  An all alien warband is difficult to translate.  Because their combined experiences and thought processes are for a lack of a better word...Alien. 

Josh
Every time I see a math word problem in the warp it looks like this: 

If I have 10 ice cubes and you have 11 apples. How many pancakes will fit on the roof?

Answer:  Purple because Tyranids don't wear hats.   :P

Ramnok

While I find it to be an issue too, I've found the ones that shine the brightest are those who do pull off something exotic and alien.

Saying someone has a problem with all alien warbands is just like saying you really like fantasy movies cause they wear loincloths... While I do understand this is a Imperium centric game part of the hobby is to explore things that are out of the box, maybe if you spent some time to get to know the reasons behind story lines and choices of warbands. My reasons were certainly not because they would be cool or they would be overpowered or even that the amount of people who have done the conversions are very rare and I'd like to leave my mark (partially but not the reason..) I feel the Eldar are a race who have lived on the edge of chaos and through their dying breaths they have become all but whispers in the most secluded worlds.

These aliens while they truly are mysterious not all wish to destroy the Imperium nor do some of them have to have motives besides making their way through the galaxy in which their goals are shrouded to even them. Without a seer who is to say these lost Eldar don't uncover a chaos cult that draws the interest of the Inquisition and escape before they are captured. Who's to say that their dealings don't gather interest in the sector they currently travel in?

The Eldar were not exempt from the rules in fact the creators of inquisitor even encourage something very different from the norm. While I do have a better view on the game of inquisitor which is more of the story it tells as opposed to the units killed. Not skirmish 40k.

I've hit a road block on timelines for my story so sorry its taking awhile. Just like you cant judge a book by its cover you cant judge an alien by their pointy ears...

Quickdraw McGraw

Quote from: Ramnok on October 29, 2011, 01:08:50 AM
Saying someone has a problem with all alien warbands is just like saying you really like fantasy movies cause they wear loincloths...

Wait?  Isn't that the reason "Xenia Warrior Princess" was on like 5 seasons?  Because of her loincloth.   ;)

Seriously.  I see what your getting at.  I don't believe anyone here is trying to step on your creativity.  We just like to see synergy in warbands.  And I feel in most situations an all Alien warband in a human dominant setting would be like oil and water.  But if you can pull it off.  I say kudos to you Sir!   :)   I wish you luck and I look forward to your back-stories. 

BTW... Very nice Striking Scorpion.

Josh
Every time I see a math word problem in the warp it looks like this: 

If I have 10 ice cubes and you have 11 apples. How many pancakes will fit on the roof?

Answer:  Purple because Tyranids don't wear hats.   :P