Validity of Aliens in Inquisitor

[Kaled]

I know that the chapter existed before rules were published for them and were therefore effectively a standard Marine army list but the first time I recall seeing them in an official capacity was in Slaves to Darkness and I was sure they were the psychic Terminator squads then...

The fluff in Slaves to Darkness describes them as being screened to exclude all but the most powerful psykers and so most have no psychic powers at all.  In the army list, both the psychic characters (librarians) and the rest of the chapter are in power armour.  The later article on Grey Knight Terminator Squads also says that most Grey Knights do not have psychic powers, but those that do are equipped with Nemesis Force Weapons and equipped with Tactical Dreadnought armour.  In the second edition Codex Imperialis it states that 'many' Grey Knights are psykers and the first reference I can find to them all being psykers is Codex: Daemonhunters, but which time you get psychic marines in power and terminator armour.

But back to the Jokaero - I haven't seen the new Grey Knights codex, what does it say about them in there?

[Ramnok]

I didn't know this stuff about the Jokaero. I'm kinda disappointed in that... Instead of making totally new races to balance they just toss in the occasional model and update their dated models... while its a good move financially it sucks to bring in the new eyes.

[Lucidum]

While I agree that Inquisitor is PRIMARILY a skirmish/RPG style board miniatures game based around the internal strife that divides various ideals within the Imperium of Man and especially the Inquisition....I feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run (i.e., why GW barely supports it anymore). Catering to every Warhammer 40,000 player by allowing them to play their favorite races and more would have made the game much more successful in the grand scheme of things. That said, I feel that alien races can fit into the background of =][= and create interesting characters/warbands to play and good adversaries for Inquisitorial and Imperial characters/players. Given that the game is mostly based on the Inquisition, aliens should not be a huge, central part of it though. If aliens are to be used, they should fit in with the Blanchian "gothic weirdness" style, as well as the dark and shadowy underworlds of the Imperium that give it such a distinct theme and tone.

Even certain elements of the imperium don't fit into the game, it's not just the aliens. Space Marines and their Chaos counterparts are and should always be a rare occurrence. Large units like Dreadnoughts and Terminators even more so. Hell, even run-of-the-mill Imperial guardsmen don't make a whole lot of sense in Inquisitor-unless, of course, if they're in thrall to an Inquisitor or part of his warband- their business is fighting the wars, not investigating the undersides of hive cities.

[MarcoSkoll]

I feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run.

It was set for only partial support from day one (the "Big Three" policy having already been decided on), and its reduced support since has entirely been the result of a drive for focusing on those more profitable games -something all specialist games have fallen foul of.

The game's current lack of support is entirely unrelated to its specificity. It would have had to be hugely popular to have avoided such its current fate, and the effect (if any) the narrow focus might have had on the game's popularity is trivial by comparison to that.

Catering to every Warhammer 40,000 player by allowing them to play their favourite races and more...

The game was produced to allow a deeper look at the side of the Imperium away from the battlefield, and investing the effort in producing models and rules for the full gamut of xenos races and classes would not have been a practical approach to that goal, nor sufficiently profitable to have improved the game's future.

As it is, I am glad that the game stuck to its intended focus rather than "selling out". (A more pejorative term than I would like, but not entirely inappropriate). Because it managed to avoid unnecessarily re-treading over already established (and ultimately distant) fluff, the game managed to dramatically enrich the setting background.

Even certain elements of the Imperium don't fit into the game, it's not just the aliens.

And those elements aren't in the game. You mention Dreadnoughts and Terminators, neither of which was a model ever done for. (The fact that people are willing to make their own is another matter entirely.)

As far as Space Marines - well, contrary to popular belief, they were and are an essential part of the game. While they can be overused and abused, not having the option for the GM to have a Space Marine/Chaos Marine as The Cavalry or Big Bad for the finale of a campaign just wouldn't be cricket.

[Lucidum]

I feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run.

It was set for only partial support from day one (the "Big Three" policy having already been decided on), and its reduced support since has entirely been the result of a drive for focusing on those more profitable games -something all specialist games have fallen foul of.

Hehe...profitable. Lord of the Rings is quite literally just waiting for the Hobbit movie right now so it can continue for another three years before it dies entirely 

Even certain elements of the Imperium don't fit into the game, it's not just the aliens.

And those elements aren't in the game. You mention Dreadnoughts and Terminators, neither of which was a model ever done for. (The fact that people are willing to make their own is another matter entirely.)

As far as Space Marines - well, contrary to popular belief, they were and are an essential part of the game. While they can be overused and abused, not having the option for the GM to have a Space Marine/Chaos Marine as The Cavalry or Big Bad for the finale of a campaign just wouldn't be cricket.
[/quote]

That part was more about how players of the game now are experimenting with large vehicles and Dreadnoughts and Terminators and the like. While undeniably awesome-looking in 54mm scale....they just aren't made for this game. And Space Marines are a part of the game, yes, but more because GW knows full well that they're one of the primary selling points of 40K as a whole, and the game would have been even more dead without a Space Marine model.

[Lucidum]

But, I might add, critiquing my last post- which was seriously just my own opinion an analysis of the subject at hand- is NOT the topic of this thread.

[Kit]

As being the "Mega-Nob!" (Ork humor!) Here, I guess ill go ahead and ask my stupid Question. Seeing how as we all know the imperium is a very Xenophobic Society,How would Genetic experiments made by adeptus mechanicus fit into the scheme of things? Could they become inquisitors themselves? Or maybe this is a Question for another topic?

[Lucidum]

As being the "Mega-Nob!" (Ork humor!) Here, I guess ill go ahead and ask my stupid Question. Seeing how as we all know the imperium is a very Xenophobic Society,How would Genetic experiments made by adeptus mechanicus fit into the scheme of things? Could they become inquisitors themselves? Or maybe this is a Question for another topic?

If this were to continue on this topic, I would say that, unless specifically created using sanctioned techniques, it could be an asset to an Inquisitor's warband. Drugs like polymorphine or creations like servitors and arco-flagellants are sanctioned and "holy" almost, to a degree, although generally creations of that type are tools for an Inquisitor to use and have no rights, no free will, or are submissive minions of the Imperial Cult (such as assassins and the like). Xeno-hybridizing experiments are the work of Heretek biologis or the most radical inquisitors, and would be declared heresy by almost any sane member of the imperium.

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

While I agree that Inquisitor is PRIMARILY a skirmish/RPG style board miniatures game based around the internal strife that divides various ideals within the Imperium of Man and especially the Inquisition....I feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run (i.e., why GW barely supports it anymore).

I might suggest that you're confusing cause and effect there.
The difficulty with Inquisitor is that it's not aimed at GWs target demographic (which last I heard was 12 year olds with rich parents whom they expected to give up the hobby within nine months). Because it's not focussed around selling Citadel products it doesn't receive the sort of support that 40k & WFB receive and therefore dwindles.

As to the Genetic experiments question, it's generally accepted (or used to be) that they would not be granted full rights (not that many people within The Imperium have any rights at all) and therefore would not be permitted to rise to positions of power.
One of the primary reasons for this is simply that it's a slippery slope from even the most minor change to Space Marine Inquisitors.
It is however important to remember that the human genome is considered sacred, someone who messes with it in a "real human" is equivalent to someone who steals souls... The experiments therefore (Aphrael strain...etc) are only (theoretically) done with special dispensation from the Omnisiah himself and it's reasonable to see the results of such experimentation as abhuman in the same way as Beastmen and Ogryn.

[MarcoSkoll]

Hehe...profitable. Lord of the Rings is quite literally just waiting for the Hobbit movie right now so it can continue for another three years before it dies entirely 

Not really. LOTR is on the books at least in part because it would have been a big threat to Warhammer Fantasy otherwise.
Someone else producing the fantasy wargame for a series of films that were practically a guaranteed hit? Not good for GW's monopoly.

Also, don't forget there are still contracts with New Line.

That part was more about how players of the game now are experimenting with large vehicles and Dreadnoughts and Terminators and the like. While undeniably awesome-looking in 54mm scale....they just aren't made for this game.

Funny, I thought they were made for this game - hence the whole 54mm thing.

Such models are clearly GMing tools, more mobile (and dangerous) scenery than they are characters. Unless, of course, you know any GM that would allow a player a Dreadnought in their Warband?
What is the GM is allowed for his plot and what makes a practical player warband are quite separate matters.

But, I might add, critiquing my last post- which was seriously just my own opinion an analysis of the subject at hand- is NOT the topic of this thread.

You argued for aliens to have a more major role in Inquisitor, I made my counter argument. That doesn't seem to be outside the subject matter of "Validity of Aliens in Inquisitor"

Seeing how as we all know the Imperium is a very xenophobic society, how would genetic experiments made by the Adeptus Mechanicus fit into the scheme of things? Could they become Inquisitors themselves? Or maybe this is a question for another topic?

That depends somewhat on how you define genetic experiments.

Minor genetic tweaks to humans? They might get away with little to no difference from a regular human, provided they can still pass for human.

Major genetic tweaks to humans? Probably lumped in with abhumans, or maybe even mutants.

Xenos based genetic experiments? Probably shot on sight within the main body of the Imperium.

[DapperAnarchist]

I would take the severity of the Imperium's attitude to transgenic experiments further - they would be hounded, pursued, detested, to be a combination of the "holy human form" and the "abomination of the xenos" would be to be among the worst kinds of heresy/heretic (which exactly you probably depends on whether you chose to do it).

The Mechanicus does play around with the human genome quite a bit, seen in the various Homunculi (not Haemonculi), COGs, Praetorians, etc, as well as things like the Gland War, the Afriel Strain, and things more hinted at than shown. Indeed, the Vat Grown Servitor who provides the Imperium with much of its automation is most likely modified to have, among other things, a much simpler brain more suitable for the introduction of wetware. But this is all approved modification, and probably has its roots far before the Imperium. More radical alterations, such as the attempts to make new improved Astartes and anything that would touch on the Navigator Gene would be at best controversial, possibly heretical.

[Dolnikan]

There are a few things which would make most transgenics difficult. For starters of course there is the Adeptus Mechanicus' usual problem. They lack knowledge and technology. The basis genetic modifications for praetorians and vat grown servitors have probably been done long ago, and it is likely that much of the technology that was used is lost.
The Afriel Strain, if I remember correctly, were just clones without modification, but my memery could have failed me in that regard.
Other than that, the Imperium really hates mutants and to most those who have been modified would be seen in the same way as a mutant, which means a shoot on sight policy on most worlds. Anyone who would make modifications on the genetic level would have to hide doing it very well. The human form is sacred after all.

[MarcoSkoll]

Hmm. I'd point out that the Rogue Trader RPG does have the "False-Man" birthright option in the Into the Storm book:

"Your life is not your own. It is the product of an arcane science only barely understood by those that wield it, who seem to emulate the Emperor's mastery of genetics. Your form and your nature are manufactured, the result of tampering by those who seek to make men more able to perform certain tasks. You are a rarity in the Imperium and beyond it, a human being wrought by artificial means."

The effects on a character - choose two stats to get a small bonus, another to get penalised, become Ambidextrous, get your libido suppressed, gain accelerated healing. Gain a mess of insanity points or lose a fate point.

It doesn't actually have any effect on the character's social acceptance (unless, of course, you choose Fellowship as the penalised stat).
The fact that my Rogue Trader character (who is a False Woman) is less popular than entirely popular in the main body of the Imperium comes from other origin options: Void-born (-5 to Fellowship with non void-born) and Recidivist (gain Arbites as an Enemy). It's an appropriate combination, but it's not actually compulsory.

And while it's not actually GW fluff, I consider FFG material mostly canonical. It's usually more relevant to Inquisitor and isn't prone to sensationally hyping the armies/models involved.

[Dolnikan]

I think that those false men would keep it a secret, it isn't visible after all. But people could react very badly to them if they would find out: "She's no proper human, filthy mutant scum"

[Lucidum]

I haven't had a chance to read the Rogue Trader RPG stuff yet. Is the "false man" that you mention in that similar or related to the "False Men of Nomen-Rhye" from Dark Heresy's Creatures Anathema?