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Dark eldar Klaive.

Started by Draco Ferox, December 31, 2011, 02:58:57 PM

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Alyster Wick

The stated intent of Gamesworkshop with the creation of the Klaive was to give incubi a weapon more akin to the weapons of the Eldar aspect warriors. They wanted something that would appear more as a weapon that (once mastered) would or could lead to an artistic and seemingly invincible style of fighting. That last line is editorialized but basically they wanted to get away from a heavy kind of polearm which (while practical in some situations) lacked flexibility. They didn't want Incubi to just be heavily armored bodyguards, but the Dark Eldar version of Aspect Warriors. That is why they gave the Klaives three grip points so that it can wielded in a variety of ways (meaning adaptable to multiple situations).

Now there are two ways to look at this. One could analyze from a practical standpoint whether or not the weapon would accomplish those goals from the view of someone with extensive training in hand to hand and melee weapon combat. From that front I have no idea how the Klaive would stack up because I lack any kind of training in the aforementioned field (others may not). The other way to look at this is through a combination of intent (GW's intent) and the unknowable (to us as 21st Century people) nature of the 40K universe. GW said that these weapons are amazingly adaptable close combat weapons and so they must be. Any attempt by us to poke holes in this theory are inherently wrong because we fail to take into account to differences between human and eldar physiology, both in their reaction time, flexibility, innate ability to master things in weeks (or days) that would take a human a lifetime.

So that's how I see it. For reference on what I said re: GW's intent you would have to go back and find the videos released leading up to the newest DE release that were put on the daily GW online blog section. There were a couple of them (maybe up to 3?) and they discussed a lot of the ideas around the new units.

Also, on the front of being able to use DE technology I think there are largely obstacles beyond finding the "on switch." Because of the differences between eldar and humans it is entirely possible that humans would lack the ability to, say, send a psychic impulse to the weapon needed to turn it on (or a psychic human may not be able to send impulse in the right "warp frequency" or their tongue cannot pronounce the words to activate it, etc, there could be many reasons).

I also don't want to step on the whole idea of a psycher being able to off an Incubi. I'm not saying it can't happen but there tend to be lots of characters in the 40K-verse that had odds-defying defeats of seemingly invincible foes. There are plenty of impressive ways to beat the odds without saying "I killed a daemon-prince/chaos space marine/super-elite alien warrior." This is more to taste. For my money I find a character who somehow (perhaps in a cowardly manner) survived an attack by these creatures and remains in awe of their ability to kill. They could then try and emulate aspects of their effectiveness in an attempt to learn from their prowess and turn it against them (in this case by convincing/commissioning a tech-priest weapons-master to create a non-traditional power sword with multiple grips. The inquisitor then obsesses over battle-field footage of the Incubi in an attempt to decipher their enigmatic fighting style).

Again, that last bit is more to taste but it just seems a lot more interesting to me that way rather than having another against the odds win by an Inquisitor against a warrior that is supposedly non-hyperbolically top of the warrior food chain.

Koval

#16
I think people are getting confused between a Glaive with a G (which is indeed a blade on a stick, contrary to what the French would have you believe) and a Klaive with a K (which is what Incubi carry these days, in lieu of the old Punishers)

As for why an Inquisitor happens to be carrying one? As an alternative to using psychic powers, you could just say he shot the Incubus and stole his weapon. Simples. Incubi aren't exactly known for shooting people any more, thus invoking Combat Pragmatist on the Xanthite's part.

InquisitorHeidfeld

Not really a confusion of names, more a confusion as to the models referred to :-)

Heroka Vendile

my only comment is that it's often stated that eldar and dark eldar weapons are usually gene-locked so that either only the owner or only a member of the eldar race can actually activate the weapon.
It's all fun and games until someone shoots their own guy with a Graviton gun instead of the MASSIVE SPIDER.
The Order of Krubal
Rewards Of The Enemy

Mordenkenain

True, there probably shouldn't be any magic technological functionality when used by a human, but remember, this is still a very large sword/thing and is still going to leave a stain if swung properly, and considering its dark eldar, it probably has some sort of jagged/monofilament/very vicious edge which makes it more dangerous than just a normal two-handed sword, its not beyond belief that it could be a very useful weapon to an inquisitor
Bonis Nocet Quisquis Malis Pepercit

Draco Ferox

My thoughts exactly. Just because it has a disruption field, doesn't mean that an Incubi wouldn't sharpen his weapon- it would just make it more useful if the field is somehow disabled. My inquisitor being a Xanthite, he might have kept a finger or two from the Incubi to avoid the gene-locking problems...
Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Flinty

The Mechanicus comes in a multitude of flavours - I see no reason why some HereTek or other non-conformist member or group of the Priesthood could not have manufactured/copied/emulated/reverse engineered a Klaive and tweaked it to make it human operable. Its possible that this may have happened a considerable time ago, and your Character is not the only person to have one...da, da, Dahhh!

A copy means it might not be quite as impressive as an original, but I don't suppose there are many still living who have close, first-hand knowledge. It might also give you some scope for a few interesting quirks or glitches, psychic bleed effects/flashbacks, random power surges/failures, emissions capable of being picked up by nearby DE and so forth.
Neanderthal and Proud!

Draco Ferox

Well, my inquisitor is a telekine, so there's definitely some mileage in the whole "psychic phenomena" aspect. Maybe the atrocities the weapon has borne witness to, as well as long exposure to the tormenter of the incubi, could have impregnated the metal, and sometimes overwhelm the bearer with images of death, torture and hopelessness.

Alternatively, the imperial idea would be more along the lines of "shady deals with a less-than non-heretical mechanicus figure", resulting in a weapon which is fairly useful, carries recognised imperial markings (thus circumventing the whole alien weapon = instant heresy argument). I am still reluctant to do this because another of my planned characters has done exactly this, but for organs and bionics, not weapons. However, as it is imperial technology, it is less than perfect. I like Flinty's idea of power surges, so maybe it could cut out if it deals above a certain amount of damage (20+ seems fair, as it does 3D10+2 damage in my current rules), representing the disruption field being overloaded. It would probably stay cut out until the game ended, only doing 3D6 damage for the rest of the scenario.
Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

N01H3r3

Quote from: Alyster Wick on January 15, 2012, 04:47:40 PMBecause of the differences between eldar and humans it is entirely possible that humans would lack the ability to, say, send a psychic impulse to the weapon needed to turn it on (or a psychic human may not be able to send impulse in the right "warp frequency" or their tongue cannot pronounce the words to activate it, etc, there could be many reasons).
It won't be psychoreactive. The Dark Eldar, due to the continual leeching of their souls by Slaanesh, and the threat of mishap involved in using psychic powers, have as a culture allowed their natural psychic talent to atrophy. In essence, the Dark Eldar aren't psychic, unlike their Craftworlder cousins.

As a consequence, Dark Eldar weaponry does not react to psychic impulses like Craftworld Eldar technology does.
Contributing Writer for many Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay books, including Black Crusade

Professional Games Designer.

DapperAnarchist

I'm not sure about the "Alien Weapon = Instant Heresy" argument. That certainly applies to the commonry, but the Peers of the Imperium break all sorts of rules, much as the kings and nobility of medieval and renaissance Europe would impose strict rules on the ordinary people, while not following them themselves. An Inquisitor known for certain to be virtuous, faithful, and committed, would be quite able to carry a Klaive as a trophy, proof that he had shown his superiority over the foul Eldar (that he used a Baneblade to do it neither here nor there...).
Questions are a burden to others, answers a burden to oneself.

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N01H3r3

Quote from: DapperAnarchist on February 11, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
I'm not sure about the "Alien Weapon = Instant Heresy" argument. That certainly applies to the commonry, but the Peers of the Imperium break all sorts of rules, much as the kings and nobility of medieval and renaissance Europe would impose strict rules on the ordinary people, while not following them themselves. An Inquisitor known for certain to be virtuous, faithful, and committed, would be quite able to carry a Klaive as a trophy, proof that he had shown his superiority over the foul Eldar (that he used a Baneblade to do it neither here nor there...).
When it comes to Peers of the Imperium, nothing is ever clear-cut.

A good rule of thumb for such esteemed individuals is that they can do anything they want, so long as nobody who disagrees and is also influential enough to stop them finds out.

The influential Magos Automachus Gyre and the feared Inquisitor Elias Krael may benefit greatly from the Cold Trade run by renowned Rogue Trader Nathaniel Vort, but they must all be cautious when dealing with Cardinal Kregory Inassis, Lord Grand Marshal Naxander von Straussen, and Inquisitor Helgardt Deuron, whose more puritanical leanings may result in conflicts both physical and political.

In most cases, the ability of a Peer of the Imperium to defy the laws of the Imperium rests primarily in his influence, and his ability to keep his vices and illicit inclinations away from the attentions of the more influential.
Contributing Writer for many Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay books, including Black Crusade

Professional Games Designer.

Alyster Wick

Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 11, 2012, 04:26:48 PM
It won't be psychoreactive. The Dark Eldar, due to the continual leeching of their souls by Slaanesh, and the threat of mishap involved in using psychic powers, have as a culture allowed their natural psychic talent to atrophy. In essence, the Dark Eldar aren't psychic, unlike their Craftworlder cousins.

As a consequence, Dark Eldar weaponry does not react to psychic impulses like Craftworld Eldar technology does.

This does make a lot of sense. I know they generally didn't practice any psychomancy (is that a word?) as the increase in psychic potential would make them a juicy target. I didn't know if it extended so far as to preclude them from using psychic powers as a means of communication (the way their craftworld counterparts literally augment their speech with psychic impulses as part of their language, see Shadow Point for reference).

However the lack of wargear made from psychoreactive materials such as their craftworld brethren would seem to support that (while not definitively proving anything it certainly bolsters that view). Just curious though, do you have a source on that? I wouldn't dream of questioning N01 on anything eldar related, just wanted to know if you drew that conclusion by cobbling together your encyclopedic knowledge or if it is stated plainly in text somewhere.

In either event, the new DE codex leaves the door open for a certain amount of warp-play in the Dark City. Daemonic pacts are mentioned in at least one story and it is strongly implied that Mandrakes are Dark Eldar who dabbled too deeply in sorcery. Not that this means the DE maintain enough psychic ability to still use psychic impulses, but if the canon doesn't explicitly say then I think some of these updates could be used to open the door to that possibility.

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread but I think it's a relevant point (if a little lost in minutia). 

Koval

Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 16, 2012, 03:05:29 AM
In either event, the new DE codex leaves the door open for a certain amount of warp-play in the Dark City. Daemonic pacts are mentioned in at least one story and it is strongly implied that Mandrakes are Dark Eldar who dabbled too deeply in sorcery. Not that this means the DE maintain enough psychic ability to still use psychic impulses, but if the canon doesn't explicitly say then I think some of these updates could be used to open the door to that possibility.
For the sake of making sure everyone's on the same page, I'd just like to remind everyone that sorcery and psychic ability don't have to go hand-in-hand. Quite a lot of sorcerers have no psychic talent (see Dark Heresy: Disciples of the Dark Gods).

Also worth pointing out that any out-and-out Warp play in the Dark City is likely to be jumped on very quickly by more pragmatic Dark Eldar that would prefer it if Slaanesh didn't suddenly have an easy way in.

N01H3r3

Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 16, 2012, 03:05:29 AMHowever the lack of wargear made from psychoreactive materials such as their craftworld brethren would seem to support that (while not definitively proving anything it certainly bolsters that view). Just curious though, do you have a source on that? I wouldn't dream of questioning N01 on anything eldar related, just wanted to know if you drew that conclusion by cobbling together your encyclopedic knowledge or if it is stated plainly in text somewhere.
Extrapolation from two related points - page 5 of Codex: Dark Eldar explains the lack of psychic talent amongst Dark Eldar (as I've already described), and then in the following paragraph mentions that Dark Eldar weaponry is manufactured, rather than psychically grown. A section later in the book explains that this is typically done by countless millions of slaves labouring in munitions factories.

Eldar technology employs psychic impulses because it's inherently psychoreactive - that's how the Eldar interact with the universe. The materials each item is grown from, and the manner of its intended use, all combine to produce a blend of form and function that responds to the minds of Eldar - that's how it always has been for the Eldar as a species. The Dark Eldar have diverged metaphysically from what might be perceived as traditional Eldar nature.

The Dark Eldar use slave labour to manufacture their technology. It isn't psychoreactive, and thus can't respond to psychic impulses like Craftworlder devices do.
Contributing Writer for many Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay books, including Black Crusade

Professional Games Designer.

Draco Ferox

This is extrapolated from WHFB, but in that system, the language of the Dark Elves is a bastardised version of Elvish script, with some different characters. However, an Elf would still be able to get the gist of Dark Elf script by reading it (Brunner reference). I would assume that this would apply in 40k, as the Eldar are simply elves in spess, and having a common ancestry language, and thus would posess several cognates and near-cognates, such as French and Spanish do today. There may also be false cognates, but they're a given in almost any language. What is most important is the root alphabet used, and I'm sure that the inquisition would possess at least one copy of an Eldar->Gothic translation list, which would be used by xenoscholars to figure out the meaning of any script on alien artifacts. The Eldar language appears to be a mixture of pictoral and linguistic description, with the position of the letters being as important as the letters themselves. I realise that I am going off on a bit of a tangent here, and maybe should start a thread in the Dark Millenium for this, but never mind. Maybe with such a grimoire to hand, and with a fair amount of study, an inquisitor might be able to decipher most of the runes on the weapon. he may have got a few wrong though, which might lead to some interesting situations....
Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.