Dark eldar Klaive.

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

Wasn't the whole point of the Dark Eldar that they raid for souls to give to Slaanesh as part of a pact which kept their own souls safe (in a counterpoint to The Laughing god, who trades the souls of his Solitaires for the souls of all of the rest of his people).
Why would they need to "opt out" of psychic ability as long as they're paying their dues?

For the Eldar who took the 'dark' choice it seems rather extreme to effectively cut out their tongues, remove half their fingers and lobotomise themselves to save themselves from The Fall when there are other options available...
(Eldar language is heavily influenced by psychic overtones...etc to the point that the first speakers of what must now be the Dark Eldar language must have been about as intelligable to each other as someone with no tongue would be to us.
Eldar technology is so heavily based on psychoreactive materials and psychic impulses that using what they had without using psychic abilities must have been akin to trying to type this post in boxing gloves (at the very least).
Eldar's whole perception of the universe is rather pscho-centric - to put all that aside must have been equivalent to deciding you could do without half your brain (or alternatively your gonads).)

[Koval]

Wasn't the whole point of the Dark Eldar that they raid for souls to give to Slaanesh as part of a pact which kept their own souls safe (in a counterpoint to The Laughing god, who trades the souls of his Solitaires for the souls of all of the rest of his people).
Why would they need to "opt out" of psychic ability as long as they're paying their dues?

For the Eldar who took the 'dark' choice it seems rather extreme to effectively cut out their tongues, remove half their fingers and lobotomise themselves to save themselves from The Fall when there are other options available...
(Eldar language is heavily influenced by psychic overtones...etc to the point that the first speakers of what must now be the Dark Eldar language must have been about as intelligable to each other as someone with no tongue would be to us.
Eldar technology is so heavily based on psychoreactive materials and psychic impulses that using what they had without using psychic abilities must have been akin to trying to type this post in boxing gloves (at the very least).
Eldar's whole perception of the universe is rather pscho-centric - to put all that aside must have been equivalent to deciding you could do without half your brain (or alternatively your gonads).)

I'm guessing either you, I, or both of us need to have a re-read of Codex: Dark Eldar to determine what's what -- I remember reading that the Dark Eldar's psychic powers becoming atrophied because they didn't want to draw Slaanesh's attention any more than they'd already done. This extends to other psychic types that enter the Dark City, and is part of the reason why Baron Sathonyx is generally disliked by the rest of Commoragh's high society -- psychic power usage is just too damn risky.

[N01H3r3]

Wasn't the whole point of the Dark Eldar that they raid for souls to give to Slaanesh as part of a pact which kept their own souls safe

Which would be fine, if that was what they did. As far as I can tell, that was one of several fan theories based on the general lack of information in the original Dark Eldar book. The current one explains the matter in actual detail.

Dark Eldar don't sacrifice souls to She Who Thirsts. Instead, they feed on the pain, fear and suffering of others to replenish their drained souls - souls drained by Slaanesh's influence.

[Dolnikan]

If I'm not mistaken it was the case that the real psykers were considered to be interesting playthings and psychic souls provide much more sustenance. They however have not lost all of their much more simple abilities, they just lack the powers of the trained psykers of the species.

[Alyster Wick]

Extrapolation from two related points - page 5 of Codex: Dark Eldar explains the lack of psychic talent amongst Dark Eldar (as I've already described), and then in the following paragraph mentions that Dark Eldar weaponry is manufactured, rather than psychically grown. A section later in the book explains that this is typically done by countless millions of slaves labouring in munitions factories.

Eldar technology employs psychic impulses because it's inherently psychoreactive - that's how the Eldar interact with the universe. The materials each item is grown from, and the manner of its intended use, all combine to produce a blend of form and function that responds to the minds of Eldar - that's how it always has been for the Eldar as a species. The Dark Eldar have diverged metaphysically from what might be perceived as traditional Eldar nature.

The Dark Eldar use slave labour to manufacture their technology. It isn't psychoreactive, and thus can't respond to psychic impulses like Craftworlder devices do.

That does make sense to a large degree. To offer a slightly different take on it, once could extrapolate that the Dark Eldar (who feel into absolute hedonism) have largely lost interest in pursuits such as "growing" their own weapons and because of the abundance of slave labor (there is very specific mention of numerous races living on the Dark City, in fact it's inferred that the Dark Eldar may be outnumbered by these) that most Dark Eldar weaponry is manufactured this way because as kings of the realm they are too damn important to do that kind of work.

There are a lot of things in the new codex that infer a large degree of psychic tom-foolery in the Dark City. The work of the haemonculus along with much of their wargear deals with items that (at the very least) sound psycho-reactive in nature. Additionally there are the mentions of wealthier denizen of Commorragh cutting off a finger so that they may be regrown at a later time if the rest of their body dies. While none of this directly shouts "they still have psychic abilities" it does at the very least leave the possibility open.

To speak more specifically about the Klaive, of all the Dark Eldar weapons they seem to have the most in common with their craftworld kin (at least from an aesthetic standpoint though this is only my opinion). Additionally the Incubi are also referenced as being the DE equivalent of the craftworld aspect warriors, a devotion which heavily infers a level of commitment that delves into a fusion of mind and body involving psychic levels of focus. On top of that there are the "rumors" that they even abide by a code of honor (which infers a level of separation between them and their brethren). If there was a black/niche market supplying psycho-reactive materials in the Dark City I think the Incubi temples would be a suitable source.

On top of all this is the ambiguity of where this type of action would lie on the psychic spectrum. Their abilities may have atrophied in comparison to their craftworld equivalents (where entire worlds are guided by the psychic precognition who can generate warp lightening storms on a whim) but does that mean that they no longer send subtle singles? Can they no longer receive them as well?

A while back (on the old Conclave) I postulated that the Solitares who travel with the Harlequins may completely "cut out" their warp tongue as a way of not corrupting their kin and keeping their souls isolated from She Who Thirsts. If the Dark Eldar are already having their souls sucked out but keep refilling "the milkshake" by feasting on pain and suffering then how much (if at all) would a couple psychic impulses affect that? Indeed, would this be a venue of experience that they would want to close off? As another view, would closing off this sensory experience be impossible if they had to take in pain and suffering by using it? This isn't a provable concept on my part but I think it is plausible.

I am in no way saying that your take is wrong N01, but unless I'm missing something I feel like the door is left open to say that it isn't unrealistic that the Dark Eldar would in some cases have weapons made from psycho-reactive materials (or use some type of psycho-locking mechanisms on some weapons).

For the sake of making sure everyone's on the same page, I'd just like to remind everyone that sorcery and psychic ability don't have to go hand-in-hand. Quite a lot of sorcerers have no psychic talent (see Dark Heresy: Disciples of the Dark Gods).

Also worth pointing out that any out-and-out Warp play in the Dark City is likely to be jumped on very quickly by more pragmatic Dark Eldar that would prefer it if Slaanesh didn't suddenly have an easy way in.

On your second point I agree, on your first I'm also on the same page with you. That said, while sorcery and psychic ability don't have to go hand in hand I feel as though opening up a door when you are a member of a species as psychically receptive as the eldar would probably be as risky as being a psycher. I can see multiple sides of this, such as saying that an Eldar focused on psychic training is keeping their mind open while sorcery keeps their soul separate from the proceedings (at least "more separate" if that concept makes sense). Their body may take the brunt of feedback but their soul could be buffered a bit more. That idea isn't without its flaws but I think it makes a certain amount of sense.

Anyway, enough rambling for the night.

[Draco Ferox]

Additionally there are the mentions of wealthier denizen of Commorragh cutting off a finger so that they may be regrown at a later time if the rest of their body dies. While none of this directly shouts "they still have psychic abilities" it does at the very least leave the possibility open.

To my knowledge, this is more of a case of turning their feeding on suffering up to eleven. It can be performed with almost any body part, so not just a finger, though that would seem to be something that the Haemonclus might demand in return for the service (they have made stranger demands- ++Cross-ref archives++ -Forbidden/dark kin/haemoncli/rumours/service charge/heartbeat-). The regeneration also seems to require a mixture of extreme pain and the arcane sciences of the haemoncli, and all regenerating dark eldar reside in pods above the torture tables in the oubliettes of the haemocli covens.

To quote someone whose name I can't remember and can't be bothered to find out:
"If sufficiently advanced, science and magic are indistinguishable to the untrained observer" or something along those lines. This being 40k, substitute magic for sorcery and psychic happenings.

On top of that there are the "rumors" that they even abide by a code of honor (which infers a level of separation between them and their brethren).

It is even rumoured that they will keep their word... which is more than most inquisitors can say.

Edit: whoops, forgot double brackets on quotes

[MarcoSkoll]

To quote someone whose name I can't remember

Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[DapperAnarchist]

But 40K HAS magic, real magic, that is, phenomena not explainable in terms of the behaviour of material objects under the laws of this universe. Psychic powers and sorcery affect the behaviour of material objects and mental states in a way that contradicts the laws of physics/biology/chemistry/science in general, and so must be beyond Clarke's 3rd Law. The Necrons might possibly be considered to be within the 3rd Law (or at least mostly within it) as might the AdMech, but many things are outside of it. My reading of the codex, with the idea of mental states radiating and being fed upon, was that is was psychic, though perhaps in a way that is only safe in the partially insulated Webway.

[N01H3r3]

But 40K HAS magic, real magic, that is, phenomena not explainable in terms of the behaviour of material objects under the laws of this universe. Psychic powers and sorcery affect the behaviour of material objects and mental states in a way that contradicts the laws of physics/biology/chemistry/science in general, and so must be beyond Clarke's 3rd Law. The Necrons might possibly be considered to be within the 3rd Law (or at least mostly within it) as might the AdMech, but many things are outside of it. My reading of the codex, with the idea of mental states radiating and being fed upon, was that is was psychic, though perhaps in a way that is only safe in the partially insulated Webway.

It's worth noting that the sciences of the Eldar are known (and stated in canon - page 5 of Codex: Dark Eldar, and page 22 of Codex: Eldar) to be sufficiently advanced to appear as witchcraft to less-developed species. This is particularly the case with the Dark Eldar, who have no real witchcraft to fall back upon.

As for their devouring of the suffering of others... the result of a metaphysical change on their part. Physically, they're Eldar in the conventional sense... but spiritually and psychically, they've been twisted into beings who feed upon the torments they inflict. Within that context, it does seem very much like the souls of the Dark Eldar have become fundamentally different from those of their Craftworlder cousins.

[Adlan]

Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"
— Agatha Heterodyne



What about when it comes to Eldar Pirates, I thought they drew from all the respective Eldar Races, are their sufficient differences that this would become an issue, what with their souls being different?

[Dolnikan]

They would p[robably have completely different cultural backgrounds, with those from the craftworlds and the exodites being raised with some more moralty than the dark kin. I presume that they will still speak the same language but that the nonverbal communication would have changed a bit due to the vastly different cultures.

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

On the subject of language incidentally...

The original WFRP rules do not list Dark Elves as having a separate language from the High/Sea Elves - it is implied that they still speak the Tar-Elthárin of their ancestors...

Even with the later clarification that their "language" is different it is quite possible that it is still a Dialect of Elthárin in the same way as Tar-Elthárin and Fan-Elthárin

[Koval]

On the subject of language incidentally...

The original WFRP rules do not list Dark Elves as having a separate language from the High/Sea Elves - it is implied that they still speak the Tar-Elthárin of their ancestors...

Even with the later clarification that their "language" is different it is quite possible that it is still a Dialect of Elthárin in the same way as Tar-Elthárin and Fan-Elthárin

What does WFRP have to do with 40K, other than both being the brain-children of GW?

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

This is extrapolated from WHFB, but in that system, the language of the Dark Elves is a bastardised version of Elvish script, with some different characters. However, an Elf would still be able to get the gist of Dark Elf script by reading it (Brunner reference). I would assume that this would apply in 40k, <snip>

The two games are in the same mould and it's been suggested the same universe and the same time... It's by no means foolproof but it's possible that an extrapolation from one to the other might shed some light on the subject at hand...

[Koval]

This is extrapolated from WHFB, but in that system, the language of the Dark Elves is a bastardised version of Elvish script, with some different characters. However, an Elf would still be able to get the gist of Dark Elf script by reading it (Brunner reference). I would assume that this would apply in 40k, <snip>

The two games are in the same mould and it's been suggested the same universe and the same time... It's by no means foolproof but it's possible that an extrapolation from one to the other might shed some light on the subject at hand...

Official stance on the matter, last I checked, is that the two settings are entirely separate. There used to be hints otherwise, but those have since been retconned.