[MarcoSkoll]

The PM actually motivated me to get some of the loose ends (like Jael's search of the cabin, which was the last bit I wrote) tidied up a bit sooner, so it wasn't a waste.

The gory mechanical blob - that's supposed to be the servitor's bionic heart, a likely enough upgrade. As Steren can't restart a bionic (particularly if it was also sabotaged as part of Zagan's suicide protocols), she removed it to create the necessary room to grow the servitor a replacement. Seemed appropriate for her combination of pragmatism and biomantic talent.

But I'll rewrite the passage later-ish to make it less vague and implied, I think.

[Koval]

The gory mechanical blob - that's supposed to be the servitor's bionic heart, a likely enough upgrade.

Yeah, I imagine it's a likely upgrade as well, if only because it's probably sturdier than a regular heart. Khorne only knows what sorts of chemicals are running through the servitors' veins that might degrade an organic heart.

(particularly if it was also sabotaged as part of Zagan's suicide protocols)

Also likely. Zagan's intention was to deny his opponents as much intel as possible. This is also why I'd intended the bombardier to be a servitor as well, though leaving him as an organic (I'm loath to describe him as properly human at the moment) actually makes more sense, as he'd be better equipped to respond to any battlefield changes -- new target priorities, that sort of thing -- as well as keep the servitor crew in check.

she removed it to create the necessary room to grow the servitor a replacement. Seemed appropriate for her combination of pragmatism and biomantic talent.

Also makes sense...

The more I've thought about biomancy, the more ridiculous its users apparently get. I think earlier in this thread I mentioned an Alpha Biomancer that never made it past the design stage, but to illustrate what I mean by ridiculous: had she ever made it into a story, she'd probably have regenerated lascannon wounds, shrugged off heavy bolter fire, and treated immolation like a sauna. Super regeneration, super toughness, and apparently being fireproof ended up being Required Secondary Powers to explain why she could ratchet her bio-lightning up to Alpha levels without exploding into superheated chunks of molten flesh and boiling blood.

[Koval]

Very short fake update while I get the real update sorted out, but if nothing else then that's the Agares stuff tied up for a bit.

Real update now sorted out, and it's a prelude to something I've fancied writing for a while.

Dolnikan: I imagine Semplice would want Nogal/Iota to throttle Andreas at this point, but for the moment there's the small matter of escaping a city that's being bombed by Secutors. Probably best as well to imagine Pantariste is still alive and wants to join in with the throttling.

Marco, Herald if you're still here: Haines' reaction will probably involve a lot of colourful swearing, but don't worry. Cities get bombed flat on a daily basis in the Imperium, after all

[MarcoSkoll]

Yeah, I imagine it's a likely upgrade as well, if only because it's probably sturdier than a regular heart.

Useful in high-G turns as well, I could imagine.

This is also why I'd intended the bombardier to be a servitor as well

Oops. I took your description of him having "self-terminated" as an indication that there was actually a self to make that decision.

But, in any case, I could imagine that Zagan could have taken measures towards "securing" them as well. Suicide implants would be quite easy. (Maybe I'll add in something about that.)

The more I've thought about biomancy, the more ridiculous its users apparently get.

That's just part of being a psyker, I think. An alpha-level anything would be terrifying.

But yeah, Steren is proving to be very capable. Fortunately though, I did write in some limitations to her power...

[Koval]

This is also why I'd intended the bombardier to be a servitor as well

Oops. I took your description of him having "self-terminated" as an indication that there was actually a self to make that decision.

DERP. Should've made it clearer myself, but the way it is at the moment seems to work.

The more I've thought about biomancy, the more ridiculous its users apparently get.

That's just part of being a psyker, I think. An alpha-level anything would be terrifying.

Biomancy in particular being the most terrifying, though -- there's not much they can't do if they put their minds to it (which is why I hate myself for never making Katherine a reality). At least with something like a telepath or diviner, you can be fairly certain they're not going to hulk out on you, or make themselves immune to bullets (though a telekine/pyromancer could probably have a go)

[Dolnikan]

I hope to get something posted up by tomorrow, I'm working on it now.

Biomancy indeed is immensely powerful, that is why it is necessary to really limit it. If affecting cells is easy to do it would be very simple to disconnect a bunch of axons and whoever was hit with it is in a lot of trouble. If it is possible to alter people at the genetic level it becomes immensely complex, the genome is huge and complicated, not something that someone could zoom in on and alter things in all cells, even if the power would be there, the knowledge isn't.

[Koval]

I hope to get something posted up by tomorrow, I'm working on it now.

Biomancy indeed is immensely powerful, that is why it is necessary to really limit it. If affecting cells is easy to do it would be very simple to disconnect a bunch of axons and whoever was hit with it is in a lot of trouble. If it is possible to alter people at the genetic level it becomes immensely complex, the genome is huge and complicated, not something that someone could zoom in on and alter things in all cells, even if the power would be there, the knowledge isn't.

I'd wager that it's only really feasible to carry out that kind of flesh-sculpting if you're really powerful, more so if you're aiming to make a long-term change. I also think it would take a rather long time. Katherine would've been able to simulate a polymorphine shape-change, but Katherine being an Alpha that's sort of understandable.

Disconnecting axons, on the other hand, probably wouldn't be beyond the more powerful types, though my best guess is that it would be easier and/or more effective to induce something like a heart attack, or possibly a stroke.

Re. knowledge -- I imagine most psykers probably get a "feel" for whatever it is they're affecting, to some greater or lesser extent, which I imagine can then be supplemented with some extra understanding; I seriously doubt psykers also need doctorates to really know what they're doing. It probably helps, though

[Dolnikan]

I posted up a short bit, I will probably do some more tomorrow when this headache is gone.

For biomancers I like to subdivide them into two groups, one which can affect their own bodies and a group that targets others but with broader effects. In my mind the two are completely different things. The second group could of course also do some things to their own bodies but not to the extent of what those in the first group can achieve.

[Koval]

Badly timed private messages strike again, apparently

If headache, then early night. Hopefully you'll feel better in the morning.

If we're going down this route with biomancy then this "two groups" thing is certainly worth considering, though I'd like to imagine a fair bit of interplay between the two groups -- sure, you might be better at doing things to other people, but that doesn't mean you have to be hopeless at fixing your own broken leg, and similarly, just because you're able to recover from the most horrific trauma doesn't mean you can't cause someone else's blood pressure to spike (although you probably do that to Monodominants anyway) or fling lightning around.

I don't tend to treat psykers as being good at one thing only -- their powers might fall only within one field, admittedly, but that still leaves room for lots of different things unless you're a pyromancer. The last psyker character with which I did something really major (and no, it wasn't Severino*) was a telekine, but although his main talent was for punching people from fifty yards away, he also managed to skydive into a city without a working grav-chute, "detect" mass-shadows of objects** on the other side of a door (and hence determine that he was about to walk into the scene of a bloodbath), and provide ad-hoc guidance for an otherwise unguided krak missile. There's plenty of stuff you can do within a power group, depending on how you write psykers.


*Severino's not far enough up the power scale to use his powers for much other than forensics, or cheating at hide-and-seek. He's probably the weakest psyker character I've used since my writing became both sensible and coherent. In 40KRP terms he's struggling to get onto Psy Rating 3, and in terms of the Assignment (which I dislike, and for which I've adopted an alternative system), he's around Theta level.

**Borrowed initially from Marco, although I don't see it as unreasonable for other telekines to have some form of object detection ability -- it's not all that hard to explain away as being able to "feel" where things are, or ought to be.

[MarcoSkoll]

Well, as I think I've already said... actually, that was in a PM, wasn't it. To go back and quote that:

I don't think I ever detailed the full extent of Steren's powers either, so... her telepathy is quite good at sensing or intruding into minds, but more limited in affecting them. (Sort of "Jedi mind trick" level stuff here.) Her biomancy is the more powerful of her focuses, capable of pushing her to wildly superhuman extremes of strength, toughness, speed, perception and endurance as well as reshaping herself in all manner of ways, but is essentially limited to "touch" range.

If we're assuming these "two groups", Steren therefore largely fits within the "self" one, although she can project her powers to some extent through touch. As she's already demonstrated, she can heal and regenerate the flesh of others, and I would imagine she could do some very much less altruistic things as well.

That said, I'm not entirely sure about breaking it down into two "hard" groups. While I tend to restrict a psyker within their focuses, I don't keep any particular rules for doing it and tend to customise it pretty freely to give them their own individual flavour.

One thing I have to add based on some of what has been said is that I prefer to disconnect the concept of psychic level and skill/control. (There's still a topic I wrote about some experimental psychic rules around somewhere, where psykers had to achieve both a power roll a la Dark Heresy and a control roll a la Inquisitor). A more powerful psyker can do things on a greater scale, not with greater skill.

As such, while Steren is probably "only" about Epsilon/Zeta level, she could mess with you unpleasantly on a cellular level if she got in contact with you. On a genetic level... if she had some time, yes. But in neither case does it necessarily mean she'd get it right though. While she's interfered with her own body on many levels, that's a process that's taken her many years and a lot of care.

Borrowed initially from Marco, although I don't see it as unreasonable for other telekines to have some form of object detection ability -- it's not all that hard to explain away as being able to "feel" where things are, or ought to be.

The "feel" was pretty much as I have it for Marco - it's part of how I chose to portray his "Wyrd" nature, in that his power is so innate and intuitive for him that his surroundings are almost an extension of his body, and he can feel where they are like a normal person can feel their foot.

But Marco himself is quite limited in what he can do in that he's only about Theta level or so, and can't normally apply more than a couple of hundred Newtons of telekinetic force at once.

[Koval]

One thing I have to add based on some of what has been said is that I prefer to disconnect the concept of psychic level and skill/control. (There's still a topic I wrote about some experimental psychic rules around somewhere, where psykers had to achieve both a power roll a la Dark Heresy and a control roll a la Inquisitor). A more powerful psyker can do things on a greater scale, not with greater skill.

Game mechanics aside, that's more or less how I break it down per something Robey suggested years ago. I can PM it to you if you like.

The "feel" was pretty much as I have it for Marco - it's part of how I chose to portray his "Wyrd" nature, in that his power is so innate and intuitive for him that his surroundings are almost an extension of his body, and he can feel where they are like a normal person can feel their foot.

But Marco himself is quite limited in what he can do in that he's only about Theta level or so, and can't normally apply more than a couple of hundred Newtons of telekinetic force at once.

I'd probably have pegged Marco a little higher than that. The character to which I was referring back-converts to around Zeta level, for what it's worth, so I'd have supposed Marco to be around a mid-level Eta. Then again, you have a better handle on him than I do.

[MarcoSkoll]

Game mechanics aside, that's more or less how I break it down per something Robey suggested years ago. I can PM it to you if you like.

I'm pretty sure I know what you mean (his three number system), but that's not quite what I meant.

People were talking about what a biomancer could do as if it were a function of their psychic level alone, and I don't agree. It might limit the scale of what they can do, but not necessarily the complexity.

I'd probably have pegged Marco a little higher than that.

I figure we likely have slightly different yardsticks. In order to stop Alphas being a sudden cliff on the power chart*, I tend to be a little more generous about what some of the lesser levels are capable of than most.

I've always taken it that Marco is a lowish end psyker, more of interest for how long he hid that "talent" than for the talent itself. Theta therefore sounds about right.

[Koval]

Game mechanics aside, that's more or less how I break it down per something Robey suggested years ago. I can PM it to you if you like.

I'm pretty sure I know what you mean (his three number system)

I expanded it to something a bit more complex, later expanding further with back-conversions into the Assignment.

but that's not quite what I meant.

Oh. Darn.

People were talking about what a biomancer could do as if it were a function of their psychic level alone, and I don't agree. It might limit the scale of what they can do, but not necessarily the complexity.

Then my choice of words was wrong. I was certainly trying to suggest that more powerful psykers would find it easier to do, but at the same time I'm aware of the distinction between psykers simply being powerful, and psykers being able to focus their powers properly. I'm currently working on the basis that a more powerful psyker needs to focus more on the control part, as generating the right amount of power is that much easier -- a weaker but more focused psyker might have a really clear idea of what he's doing, but getting the power to do it may well be another matter entirely.

I'd probably have pegged Marco a little higher than that.

I figure we likely have slightly different yardsticks. In order to stop Alphas being a sudden cliff on the power chart*, I tend to be a little more generous about what some of the lesser levels are capable of than most.

I've always taken it that Marco is a lowish end psyker, more of interest for how long he hid that "talent" than for the talent itself. Theta therefore sounds about right.

Very likely, though at the same time I usually consider a "powerful psyker" to rank around a high Epsilon or low Delta. The more I think about it, though, the more I want to PM you my ideas just so that they're there. Didn't get a chance earlier as I had to go to work, but I have time now. (EDIT: PM sent, hopefully it's not too waffley)

You're also missing a footnote

[MarcoSkoll]

Not so much "missing a footnote" as decided to remove it but forgot the asterisk, but I guess I can paraphrase:

I tend not to throw Alphas around. While I've written quite a few formidable psychic antagonists, I only think there's one occasion I specifically called them an Alpha. But in that case, there was some justification for the protagonist walking away a living victor - said protagonist was the M44 version of Jax Lynn, and thus the toughest and most experienced character I've ever conceived.

Instead, I tend to make the "terrifying powerful psykers" in my stories further down the charts, away from that level of almost unmatchable insanity.
But often, I don't state their power in any hard terms at all. It just seems like "Alpha" is a buzzword in a lot of stories, an "informed ability" that tries to make the psyker sound more dangerous than they will be.

[Koval]

Not so much "missing a footnote" as decided to remove it but forgot the asterisk, but I guess I can paraphrase:

I tend not to throw Alphas around. While I've written quite a few formidable psychic antagonists, I only think there's one occasion I specifically called them an Alpha. But in that case, there was some justification for the protagonist walking away a living victor - said protagonist was the M44 version of Jax Lynn, and thus the toughest and most experienced character I've ever conceived.

Instead, I tend to make the "terrifying powerful psykers" in my stories further down the charts, away from that level of almost unmatchable insanity.
But often, I don't state their power in any hard terms at all. It just seems like "Alpha" is a buzzword in a lot of stories, an "informed ability" that tries to make the psyker sound more dangerous than they will be.

Fair enough, and Katherine's about as far as I've come to putting an Alpha anywhere. I once had a small child in a Dark Heresy campaign that came very close, mind, but said small child happened to be the preferred form of a Tzeentchian Daemon Prince (let's face it, who honestly suspects small children of mass murder and warping reality?) so Assignment scores ended up being meaningless.

I made a lot of people scared of five-year-old girls in that campaign.