Author Topic: 2014 Dual Scale Spring Event -- Ancient Rites -- WHW, May 3rd  (Read 11066 times)

Offline Koval

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 06:31:38 PM »
There was some interest around the time of the Twin Arches, but then people had to drop out of that for various reasons.

Still, it can't hurt to extend some feelers -- I'll do that properly once I've gone past the "I want to run an event" phase.


Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2013, 06:38:38 PM »
The Twin Arches had a bit of attention, and Keravin did join us, although he did later say he hadn't felt entirely welcome.

Unfortunately, I was dealt a hard hand to play when we had to try to find the compromises on which scales games would be at and we only had one 28mm dominant player amongst six, so I'm not surprised he felt like the stick had a short end.
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Offline Kaled

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2013, 06:59:18 PM »
I wonder if it might be better to start, by building a stronger 28mm community here and show how players of both scales can work together to do something fun and interesting. More of a 'if you build it they will come' approach rather than trying to appeal to the Ammobunker folks directly...

(I've no clue as to how that might be done, but thought I'd throw it out there in case someone else has an idea.)
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Offline Koval

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2013, 07:16:58 PM »
Nonetheless, I will at the very least bring it to their attention.

Molotov and I are actually emailing each other about it at the moment, although it's just general event-design stuff and Things To Watch Out For at the moment.

Offline greenstuff_gav

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 07:33:23 PM »
wasn't the Autumn COnclave the third even in which 28mm has been welcomed, and yet noone activley came forward?
this time AB didn't organise their even the weekend before...

EDIT: for the record i was willing to print out a whole second copy of myevent and even made *all* the objectives and NPCs in 28mm ready so there could be a second event running side by side... if anyone had come
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Offline Koval

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 08:03:23 PM »
Let's not worry too much about it now. I've still got to get my ideas together first!

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2013, 01:44:01 AM »
I wonder if it might be better to start, by building a stronger 28mm community here
My own wondering relates to the difficulty of expanding the 28mm community here if one of the responses to a suggestion of a 28mm event is "Well, I'll run a 54mm one on the same day".

I can understand the motivations (and, even to a certain degree, the logic), but I feel attempts to expand the 28mm side of Conclave gaming will be undermined by that kind of thing. It changes the question of "do I go to a 28mm event?" into "Do I go to a 28mm event or a 54mm event?" - that's not likely to improve 28mm turnout.

To me, dual scale events (and the increased community unity they could potentially bring) are preferable in the long run, but evidence is that events are struggling to actually be dual scale. It doesn't take many people to have their mind firmly (or at least strongly) made up one way or the other before others just go along with it out of simplicity.

If everyone just stays in their comfort zones, growth is a bit of an impossibility.
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Offline Kaled

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2013, 07:37:19 AM »
I see what you're saying, but I was thinking that we should look to build and expand a 28mm community alongside the 54mm community by people showcasing their models and characters, playing games and posting photos and battle reports and so on. Attempting to create a community by telling 54mm players that they have to convert or miss out on gaming at the next event seems like the wrong way to go.

That said, I was one of only two or three people who objected to the idea of a 28mm only event when it was proposed in Bugman's. I do worry that everyone else does want to try playing at 28mm and I'm just confusing things by offering an alternative so I think I'll be quiet for a while to give space for other people to speak up - I do feel like I've been hogging the conversation and it would be nice to hear other people's opinions.
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Offline Molotov

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2013, 09:41:14 AM »
Quote
I'm curious - has anyone on the Ammobunker expressed any interest in a joint event or in joining a 28mm Conclave event?

Quote
wasn't the Autumn COnclave the third even in which 28mm has been welcomed, and yet noone activley came forward?
this time AB didn't organise their even the weekend before...

I always find it tricky to post in these sorts of threads - but then again, they're the sorts of thread that I always seem to end up posting in...

I have no problem with Inq54 modelling or gaming, and indeed I have 54mm models of my own that are half-completed. Equally, I have no problem with INQ54 (or dual-scale) events. I haven't had many pleasant experiences with 54mm players, however. The Conclave is an arrogant and elitist institution - or has a reputation as seeming so. Historically, it has done nothing but fleer and scorn INQ28 and Inquisimunda when it could have set up subforums to host the nascent community. And my worry, Kaled, is that your suggestions are a bit "too little, too late."

This is a situation where the Conclave's owner wrote an article for Fanatic condemning the use of 40k models in Inquisitor. Where posters on this site have criticised the practice of playing the game. Suddenly Inquisitor appears close to death, whilst INQ28 is resurgent,and the Conclave seems to rush and accept it - but there are still plenty of comments that showed people were contemptuous.

When I tried to help Kaled unite both scales, Conclavers outright refused to move Carthax - posters threw their toys out of the pram. Another attempt dashed. Keravin attended a Conclave event and found it to be an event where he wasn't welcomed particularly. Another attempt failed.

With Dalthus, we have created a cohesive and integrated narrative that has been one of the highlights of my gaming life. There has been this insidious insinuation that INQ28 is somehow "lesser", that it "needs" the Conclave, but that's not true. When you get seven people for a "grand" tournament, and we get twenty for an off-the-cuff event, there's something clearly off. The Conclave gets many new posters, and many yellow welcomes, but it doesn't ever manage to retain those posters. Why? On average, the Ammobunker forum gets more posts in a day than the Conclave does in a week. Why? 

I have huge respect for Kaled, who has always struck me as a fair and decent individual. I feel Marco has worked hard to battle peoples' preconceptions of him. But there is, I think, a lot of distrust towards the Conclave - or to Conclavers.

In an ideal world, united events would be the norm. But to suggest that it is all on the INQ28 community's truculence or refusal to cooperate is naive or dangerous. Mainly because it assumes yet again that we have to do things the Conclave's way. That the Conclave is superior. What would it do if people on the Conclave admitted they have a bad reputation? Or made changes to alter the way they were viewed by others?

+++++

On a personal level, I don't find anything wrong with Kaled's suggestion that he play INQ54 on the same day as others play INQ28. I personally only get a handful of days each year for playing games. As a result, I want to ensure my games are fun and memorable. I can entirely empathise with his point of view. The Conclave has historically run games with scoring, rather than games for the fun of it - why not allow players to come and have no-strings attached fun?
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Offline Necris

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2013, 09:54:22 AM »
If I'm brutally honest I can't see Conclave and Ammobunker ever doing a joint event.

The conclave has evolved a certain way of playing that doesn't appeal to Ammobunker players it would seem, I've been to 28mm events around the country and have never felt welcome the last one I went to ended up in me trying to shoe horn my way into games because the other gamers had a "narrative" going and they just couldn't see how my characters would fit into the game. For an event I had to pay to play at getting one game in the 6houts of play was very disheartening. I actually ended up buying some warmachine stuff and sticking it a painting it instead of playing games.

I was left feeling like the conclave weirdo who plays 54mm

I like the conclave events I can turn up and be guaranteed games, I don't have to jump through half a dozen hoops to be allowed to attend don't have to have games pre arranged into a set schedule of play, I can play against who ever I want, my characters have a some narrative with other players for example Necris, Kaled and Goddard have some history of playing against one another.


I also have to admit that I'm in a similar camp to Kaled I feel more connection with the 54mm inquisitor minis I own, I invested more time in creating them bulked out their backgrounds and characters where as my 28mm inquisitor minis were a made as a means to an end  the local inquisitor players to me played at 28mm so to get games in I needed 28mm I didn't invest as much time in the development of each character instead focussing on a theme for the warband, I actually when making my 28mm saw them as units for a 40k army not individual characters in a warband.

But honestly now GW hold very little interest for me anymore I am uninspired by the new releases, unimpressed with the game current editions and just meh about the company as a whole, there are far better companies and games out there in my mind than what GW has to offer anymore.

Sorry I think I've waffled a little here
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Offline greenstuff_gav

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2013, 10:01:07 AM »
an arrogant and elitist institution - or has a reputation as seeming so.
which is, ironically, all i take away from any inq28 thread and alot of your posts (including that one)
don't know if we've met in person but it's odd; while some posters come across as harsh online, i can't think of a single person i've physically met that i'd not happily play a game with; shows how easy it is to misunderstand people through these little digits!

however, we've all seen these circular "he said she said" arguments on 28/54 despite it's the same game and rather than devolve into another pointless argument where nothing actually gets achieved, can i get a catch up:

Koval wants to run a Conclave28 to encourage a community here (by having an inq28 only event) to encourage "our" inq28 and ammobunkers' inq28 playing side-by-side (as once AB see 'clavers playing 28 we can get over our arrogant, elitist reputation and have shared events) ?

i'd love 28/54 playing side -by-side .. "those guys must be very far away!" (lookit top left!) :)
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Offline Necris

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2013, 10:05:04 AM »
I'm curious about Keravin's experience and while I've not been able to attend the most recent events for various reasons there have always been new players in attendance and they have always been made to feel welcome, I've brought new players myself and they've really enjoyed it.

An event I attended in which Keravin was present I recall he joined us for lunch and chatted with us during it and joined us at the end of the day in the bar socialising which of course leaves me confused as to where he felt unwelcome.

I personally find your organised events Molotov to more unwelcoming when you clearly stated that attendance was dependant contributions that would be deemed "worthy" of warranting an invitation
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Offline Koval

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2013, 10:40:58 AM »
I'd like to remind everyone that this thread was not created with the intention of starting yet another argument, or for airing grievances.



Quote from: Molotov
The Conclave has historically run games with scoring, rather than games for the fun of it - why not allow players to come and have no-strings attached fun?
Historically, yes, there has been some level of scoring. That will not be the case here, as I'd want to focus more on a joint collaborative storyline, and on having fun, rather than on points and scoreboards. So the focus will, in fact, be on having "no-strings attached fun" (though given that the current plan involves Exodites and now Slaanesh, be careful how that comes out!).

I'd also like to aim for a state of being where if, say, Necris comes along and wants to focus on the event itself, that's fine, but if, say, Kaled would prefer to develop his own characters' plotlines, then that should also be permissible.

On such a note, this event will have only as much to do with Carthax and Dalthus as individual players would like it to have. I'm currently working on a setting where Dalthan characters can participate, where characters like Cardainn and Kaled* can jump in at either scale, and where -- for all sorts of characters -- nothing is true and everything is permitted**.


*Keeping in mind both characters' own exploits in both Carthax and Dalthus.

**I may recently have been drawing parallels between the new Shadowblade model and Alta´r.


Quote from: Gav
Koval wants to run a Conclave28 to encourage a community here (by having an inq28 only event) to encourage "our" inq28 and ammobunkers' inq28 playing side-by-side (as once AB see 'clavers playing 28 we can get over our arrogant, elitist reputation and have shared events) ?
That was admittedly my original intention, but given that one of the responses was "I'll run a 54mm event on the same day", I felt a dual scale event would present a compromise. And I'll be honest, the main focus will still most likely be on 28mm, but I'd rather 54mm be part of the overall event than wind up competing.


On such a note, I've decided I'm going to turn the Everqueen into a World-Singer. brb hunting for heads and suitable ornaments
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:07:44 AM by Koval »

Offline Keravin

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2013, 11:18:50 AM »
Well as the one being talked about I'll respond.

I'm in favour of dual scale events, though my issue is largely in the narrative style differences between the Conclave and Inq28/Ammobunker players.   I did attend the Twin Arches and would have attended others if they didn't keep getting scheduled for dates that make it difficult for me to attend.   As I did say about last weekend's event because I'm running a big charity event next weekend and the thought of doing a full day on Saturday the week before I'm working all weekend to run a big event I've been putting together all year.   

My issues with the Twin Arches, and indeed this thread has shown it, was that it was like pulling teeth to get some people to actually invest in a dual scale event.   Bloodpact likes to talk crap about Inq28, but given he couldn't be arsed on the day to actually put some effort into Inq28 models and then still complained he didn't feel invested.   Well I wonder why there was a lack of investment in the game.   The actual getting games at 28mm on the day was also a little messy given some people still really only wanted to play 54mm.   That's what I mean by not really feeling welcome, compounded by Bloodpact making asinine comments on the forum later.     As someone who compares his level of welcome and engagement to those of the multiple Ammobunker bash or Inq28 events also at Warhammer World, which also came with introduction to largely new groups of players I felt less engaged by the Conclave event.   Hence why I said what I said.

My issue with Conclave games, which I've said to Koval and Marco, is that I don't see a narrative running through.   I've now run my own events twice and my players have indicated they would rather focus on narrative rather than how many games can you get in a day.   So Loidis is moving to a at least 2 games each per day approach.   If we manage more then great, but we've found that having the breathing space means the games get to play out to their full narrative potential, the GMs come knowing the players they will have playing because we approach it as part of an ongoing narrative working with all new players to get them involved.    Something learnt from the first event and will be expanded on for event 3.

But for the Conclave games, which may be partly due to the tournament set up, I see players expected to invest focused on their characters rather than their characters as part of a narrative they get to contribute to and direct.    That's the big difference for me in terms of the philosophies on set up between the two groups.   I know there are AB players who will need more hand holding on the rules because their focus is never on that.   

The Inqvitational events have moved past the invitation stage for the big events.   You contribute to the forum and engage there and you were invited.   Given the perception of Inq28 as open to abuse it was important to get people understanding the philosophy to avoid the turn up with scouts and a space marine, which might be beautifully converted but which do not fit playing Inquisitor really at any scale.   Then again that's also been a case of the community growing and expanding.    Yes we have had smaller events that were invited to, but those were about playing specific scenarios following specific plot strands as determined by the players and GMs.   Then again I had the Loidis events advertised on both here and AB and those were open invites, just wanting to know background of characters so the GMs could be assigned players and work to write scenarios to focus on them.   Even so I had two brand new players at the last event.

I play both scales.   I invest heavily in building and painting characters at both scales.   I will play both scales and am looking at expanding Loidis to be dual scale as I know there are some local players who only have 54mm.    I also have repeatedly offered to help with loaning of figures to allow people to play both scales.

Koval has been in touch about the dual scale event and I haven't had chance to do more than glance through the discussion, but I'm in favour.   I've quickly read Mol's response in email and that was about engaging positively, making suggestions on how to get a good buy in, fit in with both group's background as well and all positive stuff.    Indeed everything he's said here encourages me to support it and the date seems ok, though I need to check it as I already get booked up with holidays and conventions I'm working at.

To be honest both groups need to get past themselves and maybe stop dragging up the past quite as much.   

Offline Cortez

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Re: Brainstorming -- 2014 Spring Conclave -- Dual Scale Event?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2013, 12:39:17 PM »
At any 'dual' scale event you are always going to get players who want to exclusively play at one scale or the other (nothing wrong with that nobody should be forced to create models or play something they don't want to). However the problem can be that most of the other players will favour or be more invested in or simply prefer to play one scale over the other and if you have 6 players who prefer 54mm and just 1 who prefers 28mm then they can easily end up being unintentionally side-lined by the majority.

This is the reason I was favour, in Bugmans bar, of running the event as primarily as a 28mm event in order for people from both communities to get to know each other and realise that the other faction aren't ogres, elitist jerks or whatever. The problem with this of course is that this leaves out those players who only play or strongly prefer 54mm so Koval and Kaleds compromise of calling it a dual scale event seems sensible.

As for type of games being played, I really like the campaign day format where you are trying to achieve an objective of some sort (e.g. get your candidate elected, stop or preserve the cold trade, destroy or support Kaede Mack etc). However I'd be quite happy to play in a more open adhoc style event, or in an event that focuses on developing your characters own plot, so essentially if someone books the tables and chooses a day (needs to be a Saturday not a Sunday and preferably at Warhammer World) then I'll come, schedule and finances permitting.

As a final point, it will take effort on both communities behalf to make this work and perhaps some people think that it isn't worth it, that we don't need to heal this stupid rift, that the communities can quite happily continue going their separate ways and that may well be true but the point that I'm trying to make is we don't have to. What I'd like to see is 30-40 people all playing Inquisitor and taking up a sizable portion of the gaming floor at Warhammer World and possibly making Games Workshop realise that their focus on just 40k and Fantasy is follish and that investing in different types of games would be a good idea (although this is highly unlikely as I think that ship sailed years ago and it seems more likely that, GW being GW, they'll ban us from playing o.o.p. games  ::) rather than embracing the potential extra sales  ;D)