Total noob question about semi-auto fire & the efficacy of the Shuriken Pistol

[Genghis]

Hi.  My local club is going to start an Inquisitor 28mm campaign shortly & I'll be joining in, which will be my first time playing Inquisitor.  Whilst building my Rogue Trader figure, it dawned on me that the old school plastic Eldar Shuriken Pistol (from the 2nd Ed plastic sprue) would look very cool & add a bit of character.  However, I have some questions about the rules for semi-auto fire & the efficacy of the Shuriken Pistol.  (For reference, I've found the Shuriken Pistol rules in the Eldar pdf in the bulk pack download.)

Firstly, am I correct in my understanding that each semi-auto shot fired as part of a single action takes the full penalty of 10% per shot?  Therefore, a Shuriken Pistol with 4-6 semi-auto shots will be firing at a 40-60% penalty on every shot?

If my understanding is correct, does that not make each shot spectacularly unlikely to actually hit?  For context, my Rogue Trader will have a BS of ~50 (exact figure to be diced for when the campaign starts).  I'm assuming that after applying modifiers, the single round to hit score will have dropped well below 45 (range, target movement, etc).  Given that the minimum number of rounds a Shuriken Pistol can fire is 4, that places me in hoping for the 01-05% score that hits regardless (albeit at that point I can fire 6 shots with no additional penalty).  Even if I spend an action aiming, if the target has walked (-8) & I'm at 10 yds range (-10) – for a single shot score of ~52%, a 4-round burst will be at ~12% to hit, which is an overall of 48% chance of one hit from the burst.  At anything much harder to hit, I'm getting into the >5% 'hail Mary' score to hit, which over a 6 round burst comes to a 30% of one shot hitting.

I don't want to get into the weeds of mathhammering this, which is not in the spirit of things, but it seems that a las pistol (from the splendid Armoury document – thank-you Marco Skoll for putting it together) would be much more effective than a Shuriken Pistol.  (For further context, she has a chainsword with WS ~70 & the sidearm is her only gun.)  I'd like a Shuriken Pistol as it would look cool & add character, but don't want to hamstring myself with an ineffective weapon for someone of her BS.  I'd appreciate the wisdom of those with experience playing the game as to whether the Shuriken Pistol would be worth it or not.

(PS.  Apologies for the lack of any profile details, avatar, etc.  I've literally just had my registration approved & need to head out for the evening, but wanted to get this  question out there ASAP so I can finish building the last figure I need for my warband.)

[greenstuff_gav]

\technically, yes, each shot is at -40%... however, at our club we tend to stack -10% per shot, so the first is at 0, the 2nd -10%, the third -20% and so on; my Inquisitor once let rip with a full auto Shuriken Pistol, gleefully just rolling the D10 looking for auto-hits!

also, Welcome To The Conclave!
(it's traditional)

[Raghnall]

Welcome To The Conclave!
(it's traditional)

Damn you Gav, I'd just gone to look for the proper formatting for that, and you beat me to it.

Firstly, am I correct in my understanding that each semi-auto shot fired as part of a single action takes the full penalty of 10% per shot?  Therefore, a Shuriken Pistol with 4-6 semi-auto shots will be firing at a 40-60% penalty on every shot?

If my understanding is correct, does that not make each shot spectacularly unlikely to actually hit?  For context, my Rogue Trader will have a BS of ~50 (exact figure to be diced for when the campaign starts).  I'm assuming that after applying modifiers, the single round to hit score will have dropped well below 45 (range, target movement, etc).  Given that the minimum number of rounds a Shuriken Pistol can fire is 4, that places me in hoping for the 01-05% score that hits regardless (albeit at that point I can fire 6 shots with no additional penalty).  Even if I spend an action aiming, if the target has walked (-8) & I'm at 10 yds range (-10) – for a single shot score of ~52%, a 4-round burst will be at ~12% to hit, which is an overall of 48% chance of one hit from the burst.  At anything much harder to hit, I'm getting into the >5% 'hail Mary' score to hit, which over a 6 round burst comes to a 30% of one shot hitting.

Yep, in the original rules, semi-auto is really ineffective.

I don't want to get into the weeds of mathhammering this, which is not in the spirit of things, but it seems that a las pistol (from the splendid Armoury document – thank-you Marco Skoll for putting it together) would be much more effective than a Shuriken Pistol.  (For further context, she has a chainsword with WS ~70 & the sidearm is her only gun.)  I'd like a Shuriken Pistol as it would look cool & add character, but don't want to hamstring myself with an ineffective weapon for someone of her BS.  I'd appreciate the wisdom of those with experience playing the game as to whether the Shuriken Pistol would be worth it or not.

The RIA is vastly superior to the rulebook with regards to weapons. Marco has said that he's currently working on xenos weapons, including shuriken weapons, for the next version of it, and it's likely that they will be somewhat better designed than games workshop's version. If you ask him very nicely, then he might have some draft rules for shuriken pistols that he would be willing to share. Or not, I'm not privy to his private thoughts, I only know what he posts on here.

Either way, he has come up with alternative semi-auto rules, which I have yet to test out, but they look very promising. Here they are, but all credit goes to him.

Semi-auto fire is resolved as the overall effect of a burst rather than individually rolling for every shot. The character first rolls for one shot from the burst. If this first roll hits, the character may roll for another shot, but his target number is now the value he rolled for his last hit roll.  This process continues until the character either misses a shot (at which point all remaining shots also miss), or all shots in the burst have been rolled for.

Modifiers:
Semi-auto fire doubles range penalties, but has a +10 bonus for weight of fire, increased by a further +5 for each shot in the burst. All other modifiers are as normal.
A character may aim before firing on semi-auto, but all levels of aim are lost after the first semi-automatic shooting action.

(exact figure to be diced for when the campaign starts). 

To me, this implies random character generation. That sort of thing is generally frowned upon around here, as you know you character far better than the dice do. Give the character stats that suit their background, not randomly generated values. They are no fairer, and far less true to the background.

[MarcoSkoll]

If my understanding is correct, does that not make each shot spectacularly unlikely to actually hit?

Yes. The semi-auto and full-auto rules aren't exactly great.

While semi-auto holds up okay at Semi(2) or Semi(3) at short range or with an aim or two, it falls apart pretty fast above that. Full auto is almost always fishing for 01-05, and needs loads of rolling.

As Gav says, some people house rule semi-auto as an increasing penalty per shot. I'm not a huge fan of that approach, as it makes the process more complex, isn't actually as representative of auto-fire as it might seem and is pretty mathematically similar to just using a static -5 penalty per shot across the whole burst (which has the tendency to be quite brutal when I've tested it).

But, as Raghnall says, I've been trying to address this (as one of may things) with my attempts to scrape together an unofficial 2nd edition.
It uses the"exploding dice" mechanic to compromise between the "one roll per shot" of 1st Ed Inquisitor (which takes lots of time) and the "one roll per burst" of Dark Heresy (where the lower the roll, the more shots hit. Statistically though, it's a bad choice for Inquisitor. It's hard to keep both balanced and mathematically simple. It's one thing to hit with six autogun shots when firing at NPC cultists in DH, it's less fun for a player character in Inquisitor).

I don't want to get into the weeds of mathhammering this, which is not in the spirit of things

There's absolutely no problem with mathhammer in a design context. I do a lot of statistics work when it comes to designing characters or working on the Revised Armoury, as it's a very effective method of working out whether the rules will feel right on the table.

You're going to find out if a given rule has entirely the wrong feel on the table one way or another, and it's better to find that with a few sums than by having several underwhelming games. Just don't get into mathhammering in the middle of an Inquisitor game!

On a side note, if I'm being statistically pedantic, six shots at 5% each would be a ~26.5% change of at least one shot hitting, not a 30% chance of one shot hitting. (For exactly one shot, it'd be a ~23.2% chance).
With the dice rolls being statistically independent (that is, whether a shot passes or fails doesn't affect the chances of any other), their chances are multiplicative rather than additive. (For example, rolling 21 shots wouldn't result in a 105% chance of a hit, but a 66% chance

but it seems that a las pistol (from the splendid Armoury document – thank-you Marco Skoll for putting it together) would be much more effective than a Shuriken Pistol.

As it happens, I've on occasion said that I think the most effective gun in the Revised Armoury is the Triplex Phall lasgun - and not entirely sarcastically, either.

For context, my Rogue Trader will have a BS of ~50 (exact figure to be diced for when the campaign starts).

I'd mostly agree with Raghnall on this one.

I don't normally randomise stats, as I've usually got the character concept well in mind by the point I'm statting them up (and by that stage, I know far better than a random dice roll how good the character's BS should be), but I know there are players who use the dice rolls as part of the writing process. ("Oh, he's got a really low toughness, I'll make him a scrawny model"). Still, even in that context, a player should remember that "random" isn't synonymous with "fair", and should adjust anything that doesn't balance up.

Marco has said that he's currently working on xenos weapons, including shuriken weapons, for the next version of it, and it's likely that they will be somewhat better designed than games workshop's version. If you ask him very nicely, then he might have some draft rules for shuriken pistols that he would be willing to share.

Possssssiiiiibly... I'll have to sort through my notes and see which draft of Shuriken weapons I'm happiest with at the moment.

[Cortez]

I have quite a bit of experience with semi auto weapons as Inquisitor Cortez has a belt fed boltgun which has semi(2/4). What I found was that with her good BS of 63, that even using the vanilla rule of -10 per shot, she was extremely unlikely to miss with the full volley even if she didn't aim and that she was statistically more likely to land 1 hit out of 4 than firing a single round, with a chance of landing 2 or more shots on target (I hit with all 4 shots once which didn't leave much left of the target!). Also don't forget that you can have 1 lvl of aim while using semi auto which is always worth doing. The problem with changing that -10 to -5 say or using gavs method is that it would make getting multiple hits much more likely (especially when aiming) which would be extremely nasty with the more powerful weapons. So for me I'm quite happy with the current rules for semi auto for the 2-4 shots bracket (although it does require a lot of dice rolling, however there are ways round it such as rolling several D% first and discarding all those that don't have the right result, after all if you need 23 to hit there's no point in rolling for the 'digits' if you rolled above or below the 20 for the 'tens' dice).

However these rules become more problematic for the relatively few weapons that have 6-8 shots as even high BS characters would be at very low probabilities to hit with even 1 shot out of the volley. I would therefore suggest that you cap the maximum penalty  at -40 or -50.

I have no idea what to do with full auto as it almost never gets used in my experience (which may be due to the rules or simply that fully automatic weapons aren't that common anyway).

[Raghnall]

Looking at it statistically, the current rules actually aren't so bad for 2-4 shots, for someone with a reasonable BS. To mathshammer it, taking Inquisitor Cortez with her bolter, and assuming that there are no other modifiers to accuracy, the statistics look like this:
Single
P (1 hit) = 63%

Semi (2)
P (1 hit) = 49.02%
P (2 hits) = 18.49%
P (Any hits) = 67.51%

Semi (4)
P (1 hit) = 42.001036%
P (2 hits) = 18.818646%
P (3 hits) = 3.747436%
P (4 hits) = 0.279841%
P (Any hits) = 64.846959%

Whereas for Gav's method, if I have understood it correctly, they look like this:
Single
P (1 hit) = 63%

Semi (2)
P (1 hit) = 33.39%
P (2 hits) = 49.22%
P (Any hits) = 82.61%

Semi (4)
P (1 hit) = 27.078236%
P (2 hits) = 38.657846%
P (3 hits) = 22.884636%
P (4 hits) = 4.7380041%
P (Any hits) = 93.358759%

Quite a significant difference.

[MarcoSkoll]

I would therefore suggest that you cap the maximum penalty  at -40 or -50.

That could be something of a fix for the current version. As it is, I recall situations where Semi(6) bursts haven't even come close to hitting even at point blank range.

There were other possible solutions I've looked at for the Revised Edition, of which these probably had the most merit:
- making the penalty scale with range (-5 per shot per 10 yards, rounding up). This makes it pretty effective at short range, but at longer ranges it quickly becomes ineffective.
- making the -5 per shot then throwing an additional -10 on top. This avoids low burst being too accurate, but balances high burst a little better.

I have no idea what to do with full auto as it almost never gets used in my experience (which may be due to the rules or simply that fully automatic weapons aren't that common anyway).

I'd say that's primarily because it's a pig and generally ineffective.

I've got various ones spread around - there's actually an example where I've got two in the same "warband": In Lady Riemann's entourage, Daniela has a machine pistol and Evelyn has a lascarbine (with the Necromunda discharge generator).

I do use these modes on occasion, but circumstances where it's actually effective/interesting in game are fairly scarce.
Firing into a combat where you don't like anyone in it can be fairly effective, given the bonus for firing at a large group, and Daniela sometimes uses her machine pistol to fire blindly through walls (it's loaded with sabot penetrators, given her history of fighting power armoured opponents, so it's actually pretty effective at firing through cover*), but at other times it's generally underwhelming.

* At Full(16), it's actually on about evens to hit a target with the minimum 5% chance. (It's also got quite a high chance of jamming by rolling a natural 00, but I digress).

[Genghis]

Thank-you all for the feedback.  It does indeed seem that the original rules don't work for high RoF semi-auto weapons, but having checked with the GM for our campaign, he's happy to use Marco's revised rules.  (Without actually doing any maths, it looks like that will give reasonable odds of one-gusting 2 hits, with 3 plus hits being somewhat unlikely.)  With the revised rules, the shuriken pistol will actually be useful, so that's that decision made (it will be a lot cooler, both in looks & background, than a generic military-issue las pistol).  I'm not looking for a supermegaturbo overpowered weapon, I just didn't want one that, although cool aesthetically & fluff-wise, sucked when actually used in-game.

If Marco is able to post an updated version of the shuriken pistol stats, that'd be ace.  If not, then I shall use the stats from the Eldar pdf in the bulk pack download: Rng A, Semi (4-6)/Full (12), Dam 2D6, Mag 40 & Rld 2.

Regarding the randomised stats, I share your views on them &, having checked with the GM, will dispense with them, instead choosing the appropriate stats based upon how I imagine the characters (possibly with a final D3/D6 variation, just to mix up the final figures, otherwise they'll all be round 10s or 5s).

On a side note, if I'm being statistically pedantic, six shots at 5% each would be a ~26.5% change of at least one shot hitting, not a 30% chance of one shot hitting. (For exactly one shot, it'd be a ~23.2% chance).
With the dice rolls being statistically independent (that is, whether a shot passes or fails doesn't affect the chances of any other), their chances are multiplicative rather than additive. (For example, rolling 21 shots wouldn't result in a 105% chance of a hit, but a 66% chance

I'm aware that my knowledge of statistical probability is pretty shallow, and I understand that, at the higher ends it doesn't simply add up (ie, that 20 x 5% shots wouldn't guarantee at least one hit), but I can't get my tiny little brain around 6 x 5% shots not being 30% of at least one hit.  Not that I'm questioning you, I accept your figures, I just don't understand how you got there (statistical probability for wargamers should totally have been a module of A Level maths back in the day).

Now I've made my decision, time to finish off building my rogue trader & get her painted.

(PS.  I seem to be having problems getting my avatar picture to display - should I be able to just use the link from photobucket?)

[MarcoSkoll]

Without actually doing any maths, it looks like that will give reasonable odds of one-gusting 2 hits, with 3 plus hits being somewhat unlikely.

Pretty much. It's intended to be weighted in a way that balanced high and low hit probabilities slightly better. As it is, the current rules can be brutal if the character starts with a very high hit chance*, and pathetic if they start with bad odds.
* Not having anything else to do with a turn, Inquisitor Skoll once managed to stack three levels of aim on top of his BS 73 and holo-sight - then the character he was aiming at decided to loudly accuse him of heresy. Next turn, starting with an action of Semi(3) pistol fire from halfway across the table, Skoll put all three shots into his target's chest.

This way, a character's less likely to have appalling odds of hitting at all (at least at short range), but starting from a high chance, his rapidly decreasing odds leave him unlikely to hit with every shot. (Which isn't particularly fun for the character it happens to!)

Not that I'm questioning you, I accept your figures, I just don't understand how you got there (statistical probability for wargamers should totally have been a module of A Level maths back in the day)

In this case, the way to calculate the change of at least one hit is to calculate the chance of no hits and subtract it from 1. (Given you can't have a negative number of hits, the chances of zero hits and "more than zero" hits will sum to 100%.)

The chance of a single shot not hitting is 0.95, the chance of a pair of shots not hitting is (0.95 * 0.95) = 0.9025, and so on and so forth.

For six shots, it's (0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95) = (0.95 ^ 6) = ~0.735. Subtract that from 1, and you get ~26.5%.

Calculating the odds of exactly one hit involves multiplying the chance of an occurrence of one hit (0.05) against five misses (0.95^5), then multiplying by the number of ways that could happen (in this case, 6, as whether it's the first, second, third, etc shot are all different statistical events. In mathematical terms, these are combinations).

But I'm probably rambling.

(PS.  I seem to be having problems getting my avatar picture to display - should I be able to just use the link from photobucket?)

Photobucket's got a bit odd about linking now that it tries redirecting direct links to the image page (rather than just the image). That might be the problem.

[Raghnall]

I'm aware that my knowledge of statistical probability is pretty shallow, and I understand that, at the higher ends it doesn't simply add up (ie, that 20 x 5% shots wouldn't guarantee at least one hit), but I can't get my tiny little brain around 6 x 5% shots not being 30% of at least one hit.  Not that I'm questioning you, I accept your figures, I just don't understand how you got there (statistical probability for wargamers should totally have been a module of A Level maths back in the day).

If your struggling, then draw out a tree diagram.
https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/probability-tree-diagrams.html

Say you are firing two shots, each with a 5% chance of hitting. You have a 5% chance of hitting with the first shot, and a 95% chance of hitting. Then, you have the same probability of hitting or missing with the second shot. So, the probability of hitting with both shots is 5% * 5% = 0.25%, the probability of hitting with the first shot and missing with the second is 5% * 95% = 4.75%, and the probability of missing with the first shot and hitting with the second is 95% * 5% = 4.75%. Finally, you add together the probabilities of the two different ways of getting one hit, leaving you with a 0.25% probability of two hits, and a 9.5% probability of one hit. Its simply a case of completing this method for the case where you are firing six shots, and therefore have more branches, if you want to know the individual probabilities of any given number of shots. Alternatively, if you simply want to know the probability of getting at least one hit, then you can simply work out the probability of not getting any hits, which is 95% to the power of six, and then taking this away from 100%, to give you about 26.5%.*

*Actually 26.49081094%, but close enough.

[Cortez]

I would therefore suggest that you cap the maximum penalty  at -40 or -50.

That could be something of a fix for the current version. As it is, I recall situations where Semi(6) bursts haven't even come close to hitting even at point blank range.

There were other possible solutions I've looked at for the Revised Edition, of which these probably had the most merit:
- making the penalty scale with range (-5 per shot per 10 yards, rounding up). This makes it pretty effective at short range, but at longer ranges it quickly becomes ineffective.
- making the -5 per shot then throwing an additional -10 on top. This avoids low burst being too accurate, but balances high burst a little better.

I find most action in Inquisitor takes place a fairly short ranges in Inquisitor (due to fairly dense terrain and the plot usually), so I worry that the first option might still be a bit too good with powerful weapons like a Boltgun, although blowing someone apart at point blank range certainly sounds appropriately cinematic...
The second option would be slightly better than the current rules for a 4 round burst with -30 rather than -40, the same for a 2 shot burst, but would be a big improvement for 6-8 shot bursts, so I'd be tempted to go with that option.

I have no idea what to do with full auto as it almost never gets used in my experience (which may be due to the rules or simply that fully automatic weapons aren't that common anyway).

I'd say that's primarily because it's a pig and generally ineffective.

I've got various ones spread around - there's actually an example where I've got two in the same "warband": In Lady Riemann's entourage, Daniela has a machine pistol and Evelyn has a lascarbine (with the Necromunda discharge generator).

I do use these modes on occasion, but circumstances where it's actually effective/interesting in game are fairly scarce.
Firing into a combat where you don't like anyone in it can be fairly effective, given the bonus for firing at a large group, and Daniela sometimes uses her machine pistol to fire blindly through walls (it's loaded with sabot penetrators, given her history of fighting power armoured opponents, so it's actually pretty effective at firing through cover*), but at other times it's generally underwhelming.

I can't actually remember coming across anyone armed even with a basic autogun/assault rifle type weapon. Most people seem to carry shotguns or the humble lasgun as basic weaponry. I don't know how much the rules have influenced weapon choice.

* At Full(16), it's actually on about evens to hit a target with the minimum 5% chance. (It's also got quite a high chance of jamming by rolling a natural 00, but I digress).

Don't talk to me about jamming... blasted belt fed boltgun... blasted Sister of Battle... grumble... grumble... grumble...

[Genghis]

Some good options there, I'll have a chat with the GM & the rest of the group & select an agreed option.  Thank-you for the pointers.

...lots of hard sums...

...more head-hurty maths...

I've somewhat paraphrased the maths above, but now I get it, thank-you.

I can't actually remember coming across anyone armed even with a basic autogun/assault rifle type weapon. Most people seem to carry shotguns or the humble lasgun as basic weaponry. I don't know how much the rules have influenced weapon choice.

One of my Rogue Trader's bodyguards has an optional suppressed Light Assault Rifle (from the RIA) for when she needs to be a bit sneaky beaky, although her primary loadout is a pump action shotgun.

Photobucket's got a bit odd about linking now that it tries redirecting direct links to the image page (rather than just the image). That might be the problem.

Probably, I've double checked I'm doing it right & it's still just showing the kitten rather than the figure it should be linking to; I guess I'll just live with the kitten for the time being.  (Nothing says 'bad-arse Rogue Trader on a quest for vengeance' like a picture of  kitten.)

[greenstuff_gav]

got a link to the photo on image bucket?
i mad eth emistake of searching for ladysimone and it gave me a cropped image of Evanna lynchs' naked photoshoot :lol:

[MarcoSkoll]

I find most action in Inquisitor takes place a fairly short ranges in Inquisitor (due to fairly dense terrain and the plot usually), so I worry that the first option might still be a bit too good with powerful weapons like a Boltgun, although blowing someone apart at point blank range certainly sounds appropriately cinematic...

Well, they are being written with some of the mitigating factors in my various Revised projects in mind.

The reactive mechanics in IRE do affect some of these things quite heavily. (And the RIA gives the bolter increased recoil* and a warheads with a tendency to prematurely detonate if they impact cover, so its firepower does have drawbacks).

*Although that's due for another slight simplification in the next edition. The Considerable/Heavy Recoil auto fire penalties will just become a flat -10 and -20, rather than adjusting the per shot penalty.

I can't actually remember coming across anyone armed even with a basic autogun/assault rifle type weapon. Most people seem to carry shotguns or the humble lasgun as basic weaponry. I don't know how much the rules have influenced weapon choice.

There was never an autogun in the Inquisitor model range, as far as I recall.

However, in the LRB version, the Autogun is probably superior to the Lasgun or Shotgun:
Against the Mars, it has the same range , does more damage and can use special ammo. (And while the Lasgun has more shots, who's going to need all of those with only a single shot setting??)
Against the Triplex, it has a better range, and any of the increased damage settings on the Triplex cost it its shot count advantage.
Against the Necromunda, better range, better damage and its auto-fire is at least comparable.
Against the Pump shotgun, same damage, better range, more shots.
The Auto Shotgun is probably a more even heat. It's got better auto options, but its modest shot count and slower reload are more likely to be significant.

In the RIA though, it's a much closer fight. Lasguns are reliable and low-recoil (and can be quite damaging, if you don't mind burning through power cells quite fast*), shotguns get a vast range of ammo types (although you really notice how much you have to reload them!) and autoguns are a fair compromise - range, rate of fire, magazine size, and several choices of special ammo.

* The most powerful option, although I've yet to personally use it, can flatten its power cell in two shots. Those two shots would make a Space Marine Terminator start nervously looking for some heavy cover though.

it's still just showing the kitten rather than the figure it should be linking to

I think this is the address you are currently using:
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad191/Genghis_666/ToySoldiers/LadySimone.jpg

My guess is that this is the address you want:
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad191/Genghis_666/Toy%20Soldiers/20150406-Lady%20Simone-Crop.jpg

[Genghis]

Boom!  Sorted.

I think this is the address you are currently using:
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad191/Genghis_666/ToySoldiers/LadySimone.jpg

My guess is that this is the address you want:
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad191/Genghis_666/Toy%20Soldiers/20150406-Lady%20Simone-Crop.jpg

It turns out that the url box on the forum won't accept the'%20' bits needed where there were spaces in file/folder names.  Even when I manually added them back in, it deletes them.  I created a new photobucket folder & file name with underscores instead of spaces, now it works.

Apologies for my conflated issues having brought tech problems into the rules discussion section.