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A Report into the activities of Explorator-Magos Vaal Kryzak

Started by Kaled, December 09, 2009, 11:11:41 PM

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MarcoSkoll

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on January 23, 2010, 01:37:28 PMI'm not convinced by the ability to destroy armour of the acid compaired to other weapons
If you take a rifle, if it penetrates the armour, it punches a relatively small hole in it - disallowing the way that cracks would form around that in ceramic armours, that doesn't much change the protective capacity of it.

In this case, I see the deathspitter as a weapon that splatters acid over large areas, eating away at areas of armour the size of a splayed hand or more.
Okay, there's artistic licence involved there, but that's roughly how a Deathspitter is supposed to work in the canon - some kind of alien super-acid or something*. And while I don't always agree with the science behind the canon, it can't just be outright ignored when writing rules.

*Great, now I've got an image of a whole load of 'Nids tripping out on LSD in my head.

Yes, an odd thing to come from the person who is usually the first in line to go off on a ramble about dodgy science, but it's something you just have to accept if you're playing in any sci-fi universe.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

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Kaled

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on January 23, 2010, 08:12:35 PM
The 'slugs' are supposed to be produced biologically. 2 a turn is far too fast
...
I'd say it should have something like Shots 20, reload 4
You think it should grow twenty larvae in four turns?  That's a lot faster than two a turn?  I'm not yet convinced by the profile I've given it, but I think using it in a few games will be the best way to find out how well it works.  I might change it down to reload [1] though...
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

MarcoSkoll

#32
Quote from: Kaled on January 23, 2010, 11:04:19 PMYou think it should grow twenty larvae in four turns?  That's a lot faster than two a turn?
There's some disagreement over what 4 means.

Is it that it regenerates 5 shots every turn, one extra shot every 4 turns, or if you run out completely, it takes 4 turns for you to regenerate a full reload?

In the rulebook, it doesn't matter, because all of those weapons only have one shot, but when you start adding more shots... It's one of the things I've realised that I need to define in the Revised Armoury.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Inquisitor Cade

QuoteIn this case, I see the deathspitter as a weapon that splatters acid over large areas, eating away at areas of armour the size of a splayed hand or more.

I agree with that, my invisioning of the deathspitter is much the same, though the areas are slightly smaller than that, though there are potentially multiple of them slashed accross the body, but I don't think a hand sized area is enough to round up to count as the whole location, but should be rounded down. Maybe a middle ground, but I can't think of anything simple and elegant enough to represent one well.

QuoteYou think it should grow twenty larvae in four turns?

My bad, my meaning was that every 4 turns 1 shot would be produced, up to the maximum of 20. And even this is a bit rapid. For the amount of acid I envision the 'slug' is about the sive of a small fist (if I am wrong in this assumtion then I would question the D3 locations rule), even with tyranid super biology, growing an organism of this size in 20-40 seconds is impressive. Even if they are more like thumb sized, a 5 second growth time is implausable.
*Insert token witticism*

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on January 24, 2010, 12:24:43 AM...but I don't think a hand sized area is enough to round up to count as the whole location, but should be rounded down.
Well, I can cover a pretty large portion of my chest with a splayed hand. Admittedly, I have an above average large hand span, and that's only the front half.

Perhaps it could be limited by removing a maximum of half the armour in any one hit, but that's obviously up to Kaled.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Inquisitor Cade

If it were me, I'd say that if you were using optional rules for armour destruction then the acid weapon would count double damage, but if not, then not. I'd focus on it being a high damage, multi location weapon.
*Insert token witticism*

Kaled

Thinking about it some more, a deathspitter fires a load of acid that splatters the target and anyone nearby, and a small angry bug who eats his way through the target. For the purposes of this, we've been restricting the acid damage to just the one target to keep things simple, but the way I see it the destroys armour should only apply to the acid and not the bug.  So, maybe it should do, for example, 2D6 damage from the bug and then some amount of damage from the acid (which destroys armour). The acid should splatter, but D3 minor hits doesn't seem fair - maybe  the target takes an additional D6 damage from the acid and anyone within a couple of yards must make an Initiative test to avoid the acid? Although that could involve a lot of dice rolling in some situations...

As for the reloading, the confusion with 4 is why I used [2] - I'm not a fan of the article on Stormtroopers, but it's recharge rules set a precedent for recharging multi-shot weapons that avoids much of the confusion.  
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Kaled

Hmmm, form doing a bit more reading it seems there've been a few changes to the deathspitter since the early version I was thinking of (either that, or they've evolved since then). Maybe the D3 hits is better after all...
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: Kaled on January 24, 2010, 09:17:52 AMThinking about it some more, a deathspitter fires a load of acid that splatters the target and anyone nearby, and a small angry bug who eats his way through the target.
The description of Deathspitters rather implies that the small angry bug doesn't survive the impact - merely being an unfortunate acid grenade.

I think this is one of those unfortunate weapons that to do it really "right" would involve rather time consuming rules.
I'd like to think I'm reasonable at managing to come up with relatively simple rules that represent various weapons/effects well, but I'm not seeing any shortcuts to this one right now.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Kaled

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 24, 2010, 11:36:43 AM
The description of Deathspitters rather implies that the small angry bug doesn't survive the impact - merely being an unfortunate acid grenade.
Yeah, I was misremembering something I'd read in an issue of White Dwarf a scarily long time ago - almost 20 years ago in fact...

For now I'm going to start with the following profile and the special rules in my earlier post;
Type: Basic  Range: E  Mode: Single  Acc: -10  Dam:D10  Shots: 7  Rld: [1]  Wt: 45
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: Kaled on January 24, 2010, 01:58:37 PMYeah, I was misremembering something I'd read in an issue of White Dwarf a scarily long time ago - almost 20 years ago in fact...
Longer than I can manage - I've only been in the GW hobby about 10 years.

Although, that said, I have managed to do the "misremembering WD articles" bit. It was only the other week that I was told that I'd got some mistakes in what I knew of Genestealers - and now I want to try and find the article and work out how I got it wrong.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Inquisitor Cade

The 40k rules for the deathspitter say that it's strength is dependant on that of the creature it comes from. That said I agree that a wider damage area, able to him multiple targets would be within the capacity of a deathspitter, but only on of the larger ones. This model doesn't have a gun as large as one you'd find on the larger tyranid creatures, So I think your original D3 locations is the way to go. I still think that the acid would be better represented as more damage without the armour destruction aspect, but each to his own. I also think there should be more ammo, but a longer regrowth time. Even as a fully functioning tyranid biomorph, I can't believe that an acid maggot can be produced and mature within 10 seconds.
*Insert token witticism*

N01H3r3

Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on January 24, 2010, 04:34:32 PM
The 40k rules for the deathspitter say that it's strength is dependant on that of the creature it comes from.
Not any more they don't. Those rules vanished with the old Codex (except in regards to the number of shots that Spinefists get). The new one, which came out about a week ago, gives Deathspitters stats identical to those of Tau Burst Cannons.
Contributing Writer for many Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay books, including Black Crusade

Professional Games Designer.

Myriad

Early deathspitters had a strong initial hit and a weak splatter.  That profiles a bit weaker than I'd guess from the 40K profiles.  I'd give it blast 2 or 3.

I had better point out, that some of the clubs I represent are of a military bent.

You know what you are?  A plywood shark!

RobSkib

It says in the new codex that "The maggot-like creature shrieks thgouh the air until it strikes its target.." Maybe the weapon should impose a penalty to pinning checks? I can't imagine people would want to stick around too long with screaming acid-filled maggots exploding all over the place!
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