Inquisitor Drake Kaled, Ordo Hereticus

[Inquisitor Cade]

While it pains me to say it, I do think several of his stats are too high.

Being an expert swordsman and shooter would be an impressive feat for a man who didn't also have to run investigations, lead teams of varying number and all the other responcibilities that fall upon an inquisitor, or have the additional focus of mental powers. I know you've said the stat should be sufficient indication of a character capability without reference to the background but as you've included the sentence

He has had extensive firearms training and is a more than competant swordsman.

I will add that I don't think either of these are appropriatel represented by the stats. From that description I would expect Bs in the high 50's (though given Kaled age and pressumably experience would probably extrapolate up a bit into the 60's) and a Ws no higher than 60.
Also, though I have no fundamental problem with bolt weapons, matching one with an exceptional Bs seems like a bit of a game ender.

His S and T, while very impressive for a man of his age, are much more achievable, I'd be tempted to have made him a speed 4 inquisitor, if only as a sign of his age slowly, but inescapibly begining to catch up with him. But again, I 71 is not at all out of place here.

All of his mental stats are at the high end of what I'd expect from an Inquisitor. You believe that Sg is based on nurture as well as nature, so for him to maintain such a high Sg would be another thing that would detract from the dedication he could put into maintaing his Ws and Bs.
Nv and Ld are all but in the 90's. Again how does he manage to be so good at everything?

I suppose my ultimate opinion of those stats is this. He is not an implauably capable man, he is just amazing. To be that naturally capable would make him one in a million. A million inquisitors, that is.
This is not how he appears in his background and I don't think that this is how you see him.

In other words I think he is conciderably better than you think he is.

If I'm honest, I've indulged in creating such a character, My namesake, currently an elucidator, who is to a prodigy what a prodigy is to a normal person, but he doesn't have any power/bolt weapons, and doesn't have psychic powers either. And more importantly I see him as 'a little too exceptional' to use Marco's turn of phrase. Also he lacks the tabletop impact that Kaleds rare kit and powers grant him. Even so he is not a character I play with much.

One final observation, at 2D6+4 those naval stubbers must have big bullets, but the mag capacity is large. I'd suggest 6-8 shots for a pistol of that damage barring extended mags or what not.

P.s. I am ever in awe of your models, and having alternate models of the character is brilliant.

[Kaled]

but as you've included the sentence

He has had extensive firearms training and is a more than competant swordsman.

I will add that I don't think either of these are appropriatel represented by the stats. From that description I would expect Bs in the high 50's (though given Kaled age and pressumably experience would probably extrapolate up a bit into the 60's) and a Ws no higher than 60.

If WS 50-60 represents someone who is competant, why would you say that 'a more than competant swordsman' doesn't justify a WS higher than 60?  Considering that I tend to err on the side of understatement, rather than superlatives - what wording do you think I should have used to 'justify' his BS?

Also, though I have no fundamental problem with bolt weapons, matching one with an exceptional Bs seems like a bit of a game ender.

But artificially making a character's stats lower than you think they should be just because he happens to be carrying a powerful weapon at the time seems pretty nonsensical.

I'd be tempted to have made him a speed 4 inquisitor, if only as a sign of his age slowly, but inescapibly begining to catch up with him.

Are you looking at Speed as an indication of reflexes or decisiveness - personally I go with the latter (but as discussed in another thread, the fact that Initiative is such a multi-purpose stat does bring problems).

You believe that Sg is based on nurture as well as nature, so for him to maintain such a high Sg would be another thing that would detract from the dedication he could put into maintaing his Ws and Bs.

Personally I wouldn't say that there's any need to dedicate time to working to 'maintain' Sagacity.  I don't see it in the same way as WS or S - something that would require training to maintain.

In other words I think he is conciderably better than you think he is.

And in your gaming group you might be right...

[MarcoSkoll]

Are you looking at Speed as an indication of reflexes or decisiveness - personally I go with the latter (but as discussed in another thread, the fact that Initiative is such a multi-purpose stat does bring problems).

I think that was the last page of this thread.

Personally I wouldn't say that there's any need to dedicate time to working to 'maintain' Sagacity.  I don't see it in the same way as WS or S - something that would require training to maintain.

Well, brains do need to be kept in practice... but an Inquisitor would do more than enough thinking as part of their job to keep their minds up to scratch as far as recall speed, logical thinking and all that jazz.

While you might need to practice a specific sword move to remain good at it, brains just need more general practice.
But with anything really, it takes a lot less effort to maintain a certain level of skill than to have reached it in the first place.

[RobSkib]

I disagree - If an Inquisitor is doing his job properly, his brain should be constantly cogitating away. I think PO has addressed his in INQ2, but I see Sg as half intelligence, half experience. You can be a know-it-all youngster, but it's the old codgers who know every trick in the book and who usually get the upper hand.

[Inquisitor Cade]

If WS 50-60 represents someone who is competant, why would you say that 'a more than competant swordsman' doesn't justify a WS higher than 60?  Considering that I tend to err on the side of understatement, rather than superlatives - what wording do you think I should have used to 'justify' his BS?

50 is basic competance, therefore 60 is more than competant, even if it is soo much more to be concidered exceptional, it is still quite a step up. I did perhaps over react a bit, 69 deserves terms like 'outstanding' and 'daily training'. Perhaps low 60's would have been more charitable, and closer to the LRB line.
We're told that a dedicated marksman 'might' achieve a Bs in the 60-80 range. 75 put him among the best of the collective dedicated marksmen, most of whome are proffessional soldiers. I don't believe he could maintain that skill whilst simultaniously studing advanced fencing techniques and controling the constant mental battle that comes with being psychicly attuned, let alone with all his Inquisitorial responsibilities. Given the vastly reduced time he has to dedicate to shooting compaired to most expert soldiers and space marines that shoot at that level I'd have to apply the term prodigeous or supreamely naturaly talented.

Also, though I have no fundamental problem with bolt weapons, matching one with an exceptional Bs seems like a bit of a game ender.But artificially making a character's stats lower than you think they should be just because he happens to be carrying a powerful weapon at the time seems pretty nonsensical.

I try to justify it the otherway around, so I might give a guard officer with a mediocre Bs and Ws a bolt pistol and powersword, but my local prodigy, Elucidator Cade, would be a game dominator if he had a powerweapon to go with his master level Ws, so I make excuses for him to use a fencing sabre instead. In Kaled's case, I don't see why the Bs should be anything like that high, so don't think that lowering it would jepordise the character.

Are you looking at Speed as an indication of reflexes or decisiveness - personally I go with the latter (but as discussed in another thread, the fact that Initiative is such a multi-purpose stat does bring problems).

I agree the latter, but decicivness can ebb with age, or he might just grow more cautious in his old age. Just an idea that I could be one of his weaker area's for a character that seems not to have any at the moment. There is never a problem justifying a speed 5 inquisitor in my opinion so I'm not saying the stat is inappropriate, but it doesn't have to be speed 5 just because it could be.

Personally I wouldn't say that there's any need to dedicate time to working to 'maintain' Sagacity.  I don't see it in the same way as WS or S - something that would require training to maintain.

True, but I'd have thought that in practice high Sg characters would spend notable amounts of free time pursuing academic affairs, even if it is just reading a book of poetry. So it isn't so much that he reads to have a high Sg, but that he has a high Sg so he reads. I'd also say Sg 80 make his smart even for an inquisitor, not a problem, but again he seems to have a stats of a level that I'd expect from a character who was dedicated to that stat to the detrement of others.

Thats it I suppose: he seems to be dedicated to everything, a contradiction of the term dedication. I think that if every stat were reduced by 5 he would be better, and if some stats were reduced by a little more and some by a little less, giving him more distinct strengths and weaknesses, he would be great.

[Kaled]

50 is basic competance, therefore 60 is more than competant, even if it is soo much more to be concidered exceptional, it is still quite a step up. I did perhaps over react a bit, 69 deserves terms like 'outstanding' and 'daily training'. Perhaps low 60's would have been more charitable, and closer to the LRB line.

According to the book 50-60 is the range for competant and 80+ is expert - he's somewhere in between, better than your average guardsman (who I'd put at competant) but far less than a dedicated swordsman.  If someone was so inclined they could write a guide as to what words could be used to 'justify' various stats - it might mean less arguing over whether stats are justified but in my opinion background that exists merely as justification for stats is pretty dull.

Given the vastly reduced time he has to dedicate to shooting compaired to most expert soldiers and space marines that shoot at that level I'd have to apply the term prodigeous or supreamely naturaly talented.

How much time do you reckon those expert soldiers and space marines spend shooting each day to shoot at that level?

I try to justify it the otherway around, so I might give a guard officer with a mediocre Bs and Ws a bolt pistol and powersword, but my local prodigy, Elucidator Cade, would be a game dominator if he had a powerweapon to go with his master level Ws, so I make excuses for him to use a fencing sabre instead.

So people who aren't that good at shooting should be issued with more powerful guns?  Seems like a waste of ammo to me...  If someone is a good shot, I'd say they're likely to use a reasonably powerful gun otherwise it's a waste of their talents.  In one guise Kaled uses his stubbers (and only has a knife) - if I'd only posted that version would his BS suddenly be more acceptable (putting aside any justification for the moment)?  But personally I see no good reason for him not to carry his bolt pistol when he's walking into a combat situation, any 'justification' otherwise would be inappropriate to the characters.

I agree the latter, but decicivness can ebb with age, or he might just grow more cautious in his old age.

It might, but usually only when someone gets into old age - and he's anything but, more like middle aged really.  As for growing more cautious - I'd say that's more to do with what actions you declare for a character than their Speed.

[DapperAnarchist]

Personally, my backgrounds nearly never support the stats. They simply don't mention much about them (mostly because they say nothing about the personality and so on). They do however support the equipment and sometimes the skills...

[MarcoSkoll]

We're told that a dedicated marksman 'might' achieve a Bs in the 60-80 range.

A range of 60 to 80 is a very wide one. I have always taken "though a dedicated marksman might well have a BS twice this" to refer to twice the upper bound of 40 - so 80, which fits nicely with the definition of WS 80 being a master swordsman.

Personally, my own profile (yes, me) puts my skill at BS 60, which I think is reasonable enough. I normally do my target shooting with my customised air rifle, and I can use it to reliably put a pellet through the central hole of an M10 washer from 20 metres.
(I've got some experimental prototypes that can be used to easily better that, but I'm scarcely even allowed to admit that those exist at all, let alone give details on them.)

I maintain that level with relatively little practice and only passing training, and I don't pretend that my skills are particularly exceptional. I know enough to know that someone well trained and regularly practised could easily better my talents.

Let's look at the two possibilities here. Perhaps my skill actually deserves a higher stat - perhaps BS 70. However, but that makes stats of that region all that much easier to justify.
Perhaps my skill is should have a lower stat of around 50 - but BS 50 would be roughly described as "competent", so maybe the equivalent to a basic military passmark. And I can quite easily better basic military passmarks.

With that as a basis, I find values like Kaled's BS pretty reasonable. With his years of experience and training, it's only perfectly reasonable to expect he would be considerably better than I am.

[Inquisitor Cade]

Perhaps my skill is should have a lower stat of around 50 - but BS 50 would be roughly described as "competent", so maybe the equivalent to a basic military passmark. And I can quite easily better basic military passmarks.

I've passed an APWT too, but wouldn't class myself above the level of 'most people'. I'd say the level of competence that 50-60 covers is that of professional shooters with experiance shooting at real targets as well as lots of extensive training with cut outs. 60's cover the upper end of the skill shooters that exist, 70's covers the absolute creme of the military shooters, special forces, snipers and so on.

We might be able to knock down targets, but that doesn't mean we'd be competant in a battlefield.

[Alyster Wick]

I think when someone gets up there in age (meaning multiple centuries in terms of 40K VIPs) then their skills become more of a reflex and the muscle memory would allow them to maintain an even level of skill with far less practice than when they were perfecting their skill.  Kaled might well have spent hours a day training in his youth to become a good shot.  While he has to practice to maintain that level it doesn't mean that he needs to spend hours a day.

To play devil's advocate, I imagine Kaled could have his own customized training area where he fires off a full clip at a range of moving targets then turns around, takes 5 steps while drawing his sword and then begins sparing with one of the young guard soldiers on the ship he currently occupies.  All the while his savant is briefing him on the details of upcoming missions, presenting him with logic puzzles and quizzing him on random Imperial trivia.  Yes, it sounds rather fanciful, but we're talking about a man who'll be pushing 300 years of age who lives in the 41st century (in a universe that may well not be our own).  

While these are just random musing that present one of many possibilities the point is that there are easily explanations to justify these stats.

[Kaled]

We might be able to knock down targets, but that doesn't mean we'd be competant in a battlefield.

BS represents skill at shooting, competance on a battlefield is represented by other stats such as Nv and Speed.

70's covers the absolute creme of the military shooters, special forces, snipers and so on.

So who would you put in the 80s and 90s?

[DapperAnarchist]

I guess Vindicare would be the obvious option... I guess it depends partly on what you think of 100+ stats. What does it mean to have a BS of 104? That you hit 104% of the time without aiming? Or is it a relative stat in a way?

[MarcoSkoll]

I have do experience of shooting real world targets. Not humans, admittedly, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're easier to hit.

I don't know whether you've ever tried hunting squirrels, but I can tell you they're small, fast, very jittery and seldom still for long - and with an air rifle, your kill shot is the brain. This gives you a kill area about the size of a five pence piece.
Try making that shot when said five pence piece is clambering all over a tree 40 metres away and you've got a gusty crosswind.

I'd say the ability to make that kind of shot with reasonable reliability was a decent justification for BS 60.

BS represents skill at shooting, competance on a battlefield is represented by other stats such as Nv and Speed.

He's referring to the shots you'd need to make in battle - moving, unhelpful targets, not static paper ones.

[Kaled]

Ah my mistake - I thought he was talking about the difficulty of making shots while being shot at etc on a battlefield rather than the different types of target.

[Inquisitor Cade]

According to the book 50-60 is the range for competant and 80+ is expert - he's somewhere in between, better than your average guardsman (who I'd put at competant) but far less than a dedicated swordsman.  If someone was so inclined they could write a guide as to what words could be used to 'justify' various stats - it might mean less arguing over whether stats are justified but in my opinion background that exists merely as justification for stats is pretty dull.

But 50 to 60 is quite a jump, 50 would be just about competent, with 60 being highly competent. by the time we get to 69 we are talking practically an expert, a level that in my opinion would require a higher level of dedication that he could commit without detrement to his other skills. I doubt the average guardsman have more than low 50's: they could stick a pig with a bayonet, but not engage in sword duels.

How much time do you reckon those expert soldiers and space marines spend shooting each day to shoot at that level?

a couple of hours on average or so I suppose

So people who aren't that good at shooting should be issued with more powerful guns?  Seems like a waste of ammo to me...  If someone is a good shot, I'd say they're likely to use a reasonably powerful gun otherwise it's a waste of their talents.  In one guise Kaled uses his stubbers (and only has a knife) - if I'd only posted that version would his BS suddenly be more acceptable (putting aside any justification for the moment)?  But personally I see no good reason for him not to carry his bolt pistol when he's walking into a combat situation, any 'justification' otherwise would be inappropriate to the characters.

It's not a question of appropriateness I just find that the characters who have outstanding combat skill can often be justified as weilding a balancingly mundane weapon. It's not really important, esspecially not here as I like the bolt pistol, it's his Bs that I have an issue with.

It might, but usually only when someone gets into old age - and he's anything but, more like middle aged really.  As for growing more cautious - I'd say that's more to do with what actions you declare for a character than their Speed.

Fair enough, he could just have a lower than average I for an Inquisitor, or not, I just think it would make him more interesting.

I'd say the ability to make that kind of shot with reasonable reliability was a decent justification for BS 60.

I can't really call on your RL Bs, I'd say Bs 60 is an above average shot for a soldier. If you are that good a shot then I agree, if not I disagree with that justification.

So who would you put in the 80s and 90s

Well the truely superb, shooters who are to snipers what snipers are to normal people, Mad Larkin, Scaramanga and Legolas. And the creme of the space marine population.