Greetings,
I was wondering if anyone could point me to some rules on using Orks in Inq. I know it sounds strange, but I am working on a campaign where Ork Blood Axes maybe involved, and was curious if rules for this situation all ready existed.
Thanks.
To re-use an answer to a similar question on another forum...
I would suggest that an Ork should be stronger and tougher than a human, but slower; his mental statistics would be generally lower than those of a human apart from his Nerve.
WS=70 BS= 35 S=80 T=90 I=35 Wp=40 Sg=25 Nv=70 Ld=40
Abilities: Furious Assault, True Grit
In another thread on the subject, someone (possibly PO?) made the suggestion that rather than giving orks such a high toughness, instead give them a rule where hits must cause more damage than his BIV to do a level of injury.
Hopefully that's a good starting point to stimulate a discussion...
2 things; How exactly are the Orks going to be part of the campaign, and more importantly, how are you going to convert/scratchbiuld them in 54mm?
I was thinking of starting with a LotR troll and converting him into a freebooter - he'd fit quite well into a lot of campaigns, especially ones set on the fringes of Imperial space but he could also be hunting treasure that turned out to be an artefact that is of interest to the Inquisition...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection was that Easy E was primarily an Inq28 gamer, so models are unlikely to present a challenge.
Quote from: Kaled on January 02, 2011, 09:13:18 AM
I would suggest that an Ork should be stronger and tougher than a human, but slower; his mental statistics would be generally lower than those of a human apart from his Nerve.
WS=70 BS= 35 S=80 T=90 I=35 Wp=40 Sg=25 Nv=70 Ld=40
Abilities: Furious Assault, True Grit
Orks like humans vary so therefore it's imposible to do a generalised stat line, factors such as clan, experience and specialisation have to be taken into acount. a blood axe for example may have a higher sg than other orks, whereas a goff's S and T may be in the low hundreds, try reading the Chapter approved on the ork clans for more ideas. similarly the experience will be a huge factor due to thier ability to develop muscle with more fighting, also an ork awaiting his oppertunity to challenge the boss will gain the nessesary muscle, attitude etc shortly before hand.
I also disagree with the low mental stats, especially the wp, orks are imensely stubborn and notoriously hard to corrupt, they could reasonalbly be given the Force of Will ability to reflect this.
Quote from: GAZKUL on January 03, 2011, 01:37:14 PM
Orks like humans vary so therefore it's imposible to do a generalised stat line
Yep, but just as it's useful to have a profile for an 'average' human (or an average human soldier, which is often more useful), I'd say it's also useful to have a profile for an 'average' ork boy. Then it's pretty simple to extrapolate outwards from that. For the purposes of this discussion I'm going to take an average human soldier as follows;
WS=50 BS=50 S=50 T=45 I=55 Wp=50 Sg=40 Nv=50 Ld=70
Looking at the
Rogue Trader RPG rules, an ork character has lower ballistic skill, higher strength and toughness, lower agility and perception (which roughly equate to the sorts of things covered by initiative in
Inquisitor), much lower intelligence, slightly lower willpower and considerably lower fellowship, when compared to your average human character. The story is pretty similar if we look at orks in
Dark Heresy.
Now, of course the stats are used in different ways in the different games, but I don't see the stats I suggested as being wildly incorrect - still, there are probably a few tweaks that could be made.
QuoteI also disagree with the low mental stats, especially the wp, orks are imensely stubborn and notoriously hard to corrupt, they could reasonalbly be given the Force of Will ability to reflect this.
Orks are difficult to corrupt - but are they difficult to attack psychically? Willpower mostly comes into play when using or resisting psychic powers. Maybe it should be increased a bit to represent their stubbornness - and/or perhaps have a rule that gives them a bonus to Wp when it comes to tests involving resisting Chaos and corruption, and when trying to intimidate someone.
Force of Will makes the character immune to the effects of
Fearsome &
Terrifying - as far as I'm aware, orks have never had such a rule, so I don't see why they should in
Inquisitor.
Orks have powerfull telekinetic abilities subconciously which may help resisting psykic attack.
also there shouldbe something to relect the ork's unflinching self belief and stubornness. also special abiliteis shouls go to different ones, for example a nob would have leadr and a high LD to reflect the fact that they can keep the mob together.
a more realistic base for a boy'd be closer to
WS 82, BS 30, T 90, S 90, I 35, WP 80, NV 75, SG 40, LD 40
Furious Assault, True Grit, force of will, fearsome.
Quote from: GAZKUL on January 03, 2011, 11:46:01 PMOrks have powerfull telekinetic abilities subconciously
That has never been described as "powerful", and it's only the theory of a biologist who all his peers think is off the rails.
QuoteWS 82, BS 30, T 90, S 90, I 35, WP 80, NV 75, SG 40, LD 40
Furious Assault, True Grit, force of will, fearsome.
WS - Orks do not have finesse, they rely on brute force in combat, not the precise blows this kind of WS would imply.
BS - I'd perhaps nudge it up 5 (maybe 10 at most) points, but that'll do.
Sg - Orks may not be thick, but a big part of Sg is "Lurnin' un buks". When Sg 50 represents a well educated human, one who's actually put time into study, an Ork is not going to be Sg 40. Literacy and acquisition of knowledge is not a big part of Ork culture.
WP, Nv & Force of Will - Orks enjoy a good fight, but if they die, how are they going to fight tomorrow? They're only fearless (or near it) when they've got all their mates there to back them up.
So while I'd accept them having the Fearsome ability, which would make them immune to Fearsome themselves - thus allowing them to fight Space Marines*/Pit fighters/etc without trouble (Those are going to be good fights) - they do not have the kind of stubbornness and fearlessness you're implying that they'd stand around to fight anything.
*I give them Fearsome, screw the rulebook.Also, Orks are hard to corrupt because they don't want anything more than they've got. Fighting is all they care about. They don't give a tinker's cuss about what Chaos can offer them (well, perhaps Khorne, but then they'd just be doing what they were before, so the difference is moot).
It is not because they're intensely strong willed. In fact, it's the inverse to an extent - they can't overcome their basic nature to do anything else.
The problem with fearsome is that it's used so inconsistently - I often think that a lot more things should be fearsome or a lot less. But I'd have no problem with orks being considered fearsome by most characters.
Marco covered pretty much everything in his post. I do think the strength you've suggested is too high, and the toughness definitely is - better to use a rule such as the one suggested earlier to represent their resilience. I also think a rule whereby orks get a boost to maybe Nv and Ld based on how many other orks are nearby would be a good way to represent their mob mentality.
Maybe tonight I'll type up the statlines from RT/DH - at least that way you can see what I was working from. And maybe you can post what you were working from for your statline - I still don't see the justification for Force of Will.
Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'm not really familiar enough to make a real go at it.
The more I think about it, I think this is going to be a lone Ork acting as an Enforcer for a local gang in an area that has only a very small Ork population. It is a wild and lawless area of the planet, where might tends to make right. Since these are lawless folks, they will take in an Ork to help bust some heads.
So, I don't think he necessarily has to be a Blood Axe any more. Also, GW has moved FAR away from the idea of Ork Klanz. That beuing said, I like them and are VERY familiar witht he different Klanz in ork society.
Finally, no plans for a 54MM ork as I play INQ28 and Inquismunda style games.
Im with Gazkul- the orks are incredibly hard to corrupt and also, with the exeption of squigs, psychic- even the grots are capable of gnerating enough waagh energy to control their weaponry. Not only that, but blood axes are devious, intelligent and even more ruthless than your standard orks, so really they should have higher stats than a bog standard human.
Quote from: Darksinger on January 04, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
orks are incredibly hard to corrupt and also, with the exeption of squigs, psychic- even the grots are capable of gnerating enough waagh energy to control their weaponry.
But does being hard to corrupt and unconsciously psychic make you more immune to psychic powers (the main use of Wp for non-psykers)? Rulesets such as
Dark Heresy &
Rogue Trader don't (unless I missed something) seem to think so. Do any other rulesets have orks being more resistent to psychic powers?
QuoteNot only that, but blood axes are devious, intelligent and even more ruthless than your standard orks, so really they should have higher stats than a bog standard human.
Higher than human in what way? Physically, mentally or both? Do you agree with Gazkul's statline entirely? Or do you have your own suggestion?
Quote from: Darksinger on January 04, 2011, 07:45:46 PMI'm with Gazkul- the orks are incredibly hard to corrupt
Because of their simple mindset! They are hard to corrupted because they don't want any more than grog to drink, meat to eat and enemies to fight. You can't promise them power, tales of how they could strike down their enemies in arcane ways - because they only want to hit the enemy in the face with a Choppa, not "summun lightnin' und demuns".
This does not make them strong minded. I might give them heavy bonuses to resist "Persuasion" (or a better choice, penalties to those people trying to persuade them), because there's almost nothing you can offer them that they want - but they are actually pretty weak minded, just following instinct and biological urges.
As far as the psychic argument - tosh. Psychic creatures are MORE susceptible to the warp - that's why the Imperium kill psykers practically on sight, because they're magnets for it. (And it's why untouchables, with less/zero/negative "warp stuff" are less susceptible.)
It is only when a psychic creature has conscious control of the warp that they can become more resistant, actively fending it off.
For the most part, while
trained psykers are candidates for high Wp values, I would give an untrained psyker a lower Wp than an average human.
I'll accept that Orks are not more susceptible because of their psychic nature, but I won't go with less.
QuoteNot only that, but blood axes are devious, intelligent and even more ruthless than your standard orks
But Sg is NOT just intelligence - anyway, what Orks have is
Kunnin', not smarts.
While I might give Orks an Sg bonus for some things - perhaps using machinery, representing their "subconsicous psychic" expectation that it should work - they are not well read and do not have education.
(Ork Meks, however, would be a candidate for a much bigger machinery bonus.)
I'd say an intelligent Ork is on par with an average human mentally, i'd also say the average Ork is pretty cowardly on his own, whilst those that aren't are more likely to be Nobs. Cunning and intelligence are too different things. So whilst an Ork may be able to set a trap, or be aware a trap has been set, it'd wouldn't be able to comprehend "The Illustrated Works Of Gideon Ravenor for Toddlers".
Well, I'd say that although orks are a sentient species, they are definitely more primitive than humans.They are generally portrayed as less mentally agile than humans and less capable with the specifics of certain thought processes such as basic mathematics (they can tell whether there are more or less enemies than orks, but ask for the actual number and you tend to get either "Lots boss" or "Not too many boss"). Their language is also very simple, described by, iirc, Ciaphas Cain (might have been someone else) as "pointing at you want and sounding angry". Although some orks have learned Low Gothic, they tend to find it difficult to understand and even harder to speak.
Physically, they outmatch humans in much the same way as some higher primates and great apes outmatch humans (the average chimp is stronger than most exceptional humans). Although they are physically stronger and tougher, their lower mental capacity would mean that they almost certainly lack any great technique in combat; most accounts of orks fighting are of them simply using their weapons, whatever they are, to bludgeon their foes to death.
Psychically, their resistance and power is very much dependent on both the number of orks present and their state of mind. It's true that if you could convince a large enough group of orks that a stick you picked up was a gun, they could take it and shoot you to pieces with it, but that would require a very large group of orks, and they would all have to be utterly convinced. In the numbersthat could be present in a game of Inquisitor, the ork/s' psychic potential would be very low, enough to keep his own weapons running and to maybe help him understand what the human yelling at him wants.
Given all this, I would give a lone ork a stat-line something like this.
WS=55 BS=35 S=90 T=90 I=50 Wp=45 Sg=25 Nv=75 Ld=30
Abilities: Furious assault, true grit.
Maybe I'm betraying old school roots, but I still think of the basic ork as around the level of a brutish human. Since we're talking about the basic ork, even S/T 70 makes them stronger and tougher than most human soldiers. 90 is around 'bionic arm' levels and seems too high. While they have a cavalier disregard for their personal safety, once they do start feeling threatened they're not so brave. Swarbie's mental attributes look about right.
Blood axes are more 'humanised', which would give them higher leadership/sagacity, but I'd dock them furious assault in lieu.
I've always thought of the fact that some Orks can speak any Low Gothic* as a sign of a significant amount of a certain type of intelligence, what with Low Gothic being an alien language to them. For a start there are the basic biological differences, I'd assume the vocal chords are structured somewhat differently, and the mouth, though the amount of actual difference there is might be quite small. One significant difference though would be the tusks, which would make it hard for the lips to form the sounds of the languages** I have any real understanding of (understanding of how the sounds are made, in this instance, rather then the actual meaning of the words).
So simple pronunciation would be difficult because of physical impediment rather then necessarily any sort of intellectual impediment.
Then, IMO, there is the probability that the concepts expressed in Ork and human speech are incredibly different. Concepts differ between cultures on earth, even understanding of concepts (or so I am led to believe); that is the way ideas are viewed and expressed differs between certain groups of humans, so I suspect it would differ significantly between Orks and humans. After all, different things are important in generalisation to each species. Expressing one's ideas in spoken language, in my view, carries with it the task of translating ideas from one's thought language to the spoken language. In fact I don't think it carries with it that task, I think it is that task (this is of ideas that one has already had, which differs from expressing ideas as they come). This generally relatively easy in a person's first language, because that is usually the language the person's thought language is most similar to. In fact it is often similar enough for them to be considered thinking in that language. The point I am trying to make here is that the ideas of Orks are likely suited (to a certain degree) and tied in with their language(s), but IMO are probably highly unsuited to Low Gothic, far more so then between any two languages on earth (which interestingly enough (to me at least) includes programming languages, and at least some the ideas and things said in programming languages are awkward to say in English).
I therefore set forth the idea that an Ork which has learnt to translate its ideas into an alien language must be capable of some intellectual aerobics by the very definition of what they have done. That is not to say that all Orks are really smart, but the ones who have learnt enough Imperial Gothic to hold a cursory conversation would seem to me to have demonstrated that they are smart.
* I assume that a significant number of them can, though the quotes I am thinking of I cannot place at the moment, so they could actually simply be translations.
**Being the languages near Britain, such as English, Irish Gaelic (and thus Scottish Gaelic as well), French, German, Welsh etc.
Quote from: Swarbie on January 05, 2011, 12:07:04 AM
It's true that if you could convince a large enough group of orks that a stick you picked up was a gun, they could take it and shoot you to pieces with it
I think that's going too far - I can't think of any evidence in the canon to support such an assertion. There's some evidence that ork weapons may work better in the hands of an ork, but essentially ork weapons work because they were designed and built by a being who has the instinctive knowledge of how to do build weapons encoded in his DNA.
ok, i'd have to agree with kaled here- a stick in the hands of even a million orks convinced it was a gun wouldnt do anything. Blood axes especially are smart enough to know that a stick can't fire bullets, and as the fluff for blood axes clearly states, blood axes will hack anyone to peices if that person attempts to fool them. Give them a toy rifle or a spud gun though, and they might do more damage. As for statlines, I agree mostly with Myraid- a higher LD and SG, but dock furious charge. Blood axes often hang back and scheme, unlike say, Speed Freakz, who obviosly tend to plow headlong into battle.
Marcoskoll- but blood axes are of a more complex mindset- your standard ork would not even be convinced to fight for a human, but blood axes will happily do so, for a right price. They employ strategy, that in itself showing a deeper mind than your average ork nob. They are cunning, yes, and although cunning and intelligence are different things, you said yourself SG is not only intelligence. What other category would cunning fit into really?
I think there's a bit of confusion here, some of us (such as Marco and me) are discussing stats for an 'average' ork, whereas others are talking about particular clans.
I don't think cunning needs to be factored into any stat - IMHO it's more to do with how the character is played and what tactics he employs. Not everything needs to be, or should be, reflected in stats or special rules. And given how Sg is generally used in the game, it doesn't need to take cunning into account - but as with every character a GM should give appropriate bonuses to Sg tests if it's appropriate for the character.
Quote from: Darksinger on January 05, 2011, 10:47:11 AMWhat other category would cunning fit into really?
If I'd put it anywhere (as Kaled says, that kind of thing is probably better roleplayed - see below), I'd put it on Leadership - which covers,amongst other things, a character's military nous.
Sagacity is largely used for tests to operate unknown machinery or recall important details. It covers logic and learning rather than generic intelligence. In short, I suppose Sg is more "Book smarts" while Ld is more "Street smarts".
Orks, if they have either, have Street Smarts. (Still, their lack of discipline means they should not have a particularly high Ld.)
And besides, obviously, stats can't include everything. There's no "common sense" stat or a "master plans" stat, because those are in what actions the player chooses. Kunnin should probably be largely the same.
now, first of all, the 'orks are psychic and make sticks shoot bullets if they believe hard enough' thing is a running joke (originating I think on 4chan's /tg/ board). Certainly, orks display a certain degree of telepathic power (the WAAGH) but this only manifests in large groups of orks and mainly affects them psychologically and physiologically. There's no cannon examples of ork tech only working because they believe it will do so that I know of. Orkish Wp will be comparatively low, representing their succeptibility to the WAAGH and usual lack of overt raw power- remember that most psychic phenomena from Orks obly occour when huge numbers are present and that Wierdboys have very little control over their own powers (hense such occourances as Headbangs and Psychic Vomit).
Sg is generally taken as representing 'book learning' rather than raw intelligence. Whilst orks are not stupid creatures per se, they are somewhat simple in their outlook and don't value knowledge greatly. I'd put their Sg mostly in the 30s.
Orkish anatomy and musculature is vastly more powerful than that of a human- IIRC they were bred as a pure warrior race and so these stats in the 90's seems more than reasonable- whilst less able than a typical space marine, they come much closer than a typical human ever could.
Vladimir- in the ork codex, it mentions the lack offunction thing (i re-ead it recntly, and it does say some of the time, not all the time. Also, you might get a few higher SG orks- for instantce, blood axe kommandoes can read and write, so will presumably have more booksmarts than other orks (maybe in the 40-45 region?)
Yeah, I know the orks turning sticks into guns is an exaggeration. However, in many cases, when humans attempt to use ork technology, it simply does not work, usually because it is missing some small but important piece. For example, I think there's a story out there somewhere where an ork manages to pin down an Imperial Guard squad for an hour with a looted heavy stubber. When the squad finally takes the ork out, their sergeant finds the gun had no trigger.
Of course, there are cases where ork technology works perfectly normally, eg, Commissar Yarrick's power-claw.
ah yes, yarrick. The epitomy of imperial spirit though- he belives that he can defeat gazkull thraka, and that he is righteous, ect. so i would have though he would be able to work ork weaponry. That said, power klaws are hydralic (i cant spell that word) or battery powered, so its probably easy to use.
I'm going to have a go at synthesizing some of this discussion...
for the Record, this will be the stats for a bog standard Ork boy that will vary by individual. I realize mos tthe people here probably do not use the "random" stat generation, but I included them for completeness.
WS= 55= 45+2d10
BS= 35= 25+2d10
T= 80= 75+d10
S= 80= 75 +d10
I= 35= 25+2d10
WP= 45= 40+d10
NV= 75= 65+2d10
SG= 25= 10+3d10
LD= 30= 20+2d10
Inherent Ork abilities: Furious Assault, True Grit, Fearsome
Quote from: Darksinger on January 08, 2011, 08:46:29 AM
gazkull thraka
Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka call yourself an ork player?
Makari? where are you? Maaaakaaaaaari?! :'(
I miss lucky Makari too, Gav.
Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka.
sorry...
Its been a while since i used my orks. I dont even have a legal army any more (trying to create a walker and mega-armoured list)
Quote from: Darksinger on January 15, 2011, 09:16:42 AM
Hi there, i know how to mess up an already perfect army by making other people outnumber me!!!!
you said it.
uuh- ive used it in theroy. Its actually very effective. And dont edit my uots please. You make me feel like im talking to myself even more than usuall.
Just to get us back on track, thoughts on this archtype statline?
WS= 55= 45+2d10
BS= 35= 25+2d10
T= 80= 75+d10
S= 80= 75 +d10
I= 35= 25+2d10
WP= 45= 40+d10
NV= 75= 65+2d10
SG= 25= 10+3d10
LD= 30= 20+2d10
Inherent Ork abilities: Furious Assault, True Grit, Fearsome
@kaled- How did this special Ork damage rule you mentioned before work?
It was a suggestion PO made somewhere - I think it was based on one of the special rules for implants in the Dark Magenta article on Astartes. The idea was basically to lower their toughness but hits would need to do over their BIV to do some of the higher damage levels.
Here is a shot at some Ork rules for a particular campaign setting.
http://www.box.net/shared/sn5g2m5n1h
You can find more about the campaign setting here:
http://www.box.net/shared/meahqycqgy
Please note, no formalized launch date for the campaign has been set.