I've been thinking a lot about the potential non-standard applications of various suggested psychic abilities, and it got me thinking about the core principles behind them. The question then arose; would it be acceptable to establish one core ability and manipulate it in slightly different ways to effectively end up with multiple powers for the "price" of one?
Specifically, I had in mind microtelekinesis.
If someone is capable of manipulating air into a kinetic barrier, then surely it's an infinitesimal step to apply the same methods on a smaller scale and form a kinetic blade, or to coalesce it into a projectile. Perhaps even to go so far as to deprive somebody of oxygen as the molecules are forced away from them, or to dissolve the target on the molecular level, real necron style. The core principle here would be the manipulation of particles on a varying scale and, to my mind, it doesn't seem as if the ability to do that would really merit more than a single power "slot" ...though perhaps different difficulty levels.
Evidently, I'm somewhat in favour of innovative uses of abilities, but I'm mostly wondering if whether applying the sort of thing I've suggested would be unbalanced or unfair.
...I can almost feel the heat of the flames already, but it'll probably be worth it.
I go for this sort of thing 100%. I might impose extra difficulty if a character were doing something they hadn't practised before, but I absolutely encourage the use of psychic talents in innovative ways.
And if I recall correctly, I've talked about the idea briefly before: http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=731.msg9749#msg9749
QuoteAnd if I recall correctly, I've talked about the idea briefly before
Instantly thought of you on this one Marco.
What you're talking about sounds totally doable and appropriate Frost, but I would urge you to think about specific instances first and rough out the effects/difficulties. While it will fall to the GM to interpret any on the fly use of your abilities, it's a good idea (and speeds up gameplay) to know what's going on first.
I would suggest that there is a world of difference between throwing an object at someone and creating a jet of air which is sufficient to cause them damage - similarly a shield of air moving at speeds sufficient to significantly blunt a projectile's force or deflect it significantly from its course is an incredible feat.
How each of the psychic powers work is, of course, up for debate - and it might even be said that the powers in the Inquisitor rules are pretty limited and not wonderfully organised...
But I would want to avoid allowing someone a full range of powers based on a single 'category' beyond the most powerful of Betas and the Alphas. An Alpha of course potentially has the power to drive a jet of air hard enough to cut through mountains but I think, even in normal play, you would probably end up with someone with a little too much 'Last Airbender' in them.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on January 31, 2011, 01:31:21 PM
I would suggest that there is a world of difference between throwing an object at someone and creating a jet of air which is sufficient to cause them damage - similarly a shield of air moving at speeds sufficient to significantly blunt a projectile's force or deflect it significantly from its course is an incredible feat.
... An Alpha of course potentially has the power to drive a jet of air hard enough to cut through mountains but I think, even in normal play, you would probably end up with someone with a little too much 'Last Airbender' in them.
Uh...I was thinking less in the region of airbending; more like coalescing individual particles into an effectively "solid" - potentially monomolecular, depending on the intended application - mass. So a ranged attack would probably be more like firing an ice cube from a potato gun than summoning a force twelve gale.
Well, being able to hold together something like a sword seems a bit of a stretch. Particularly compared to carrying an actual sword, given the risky nature of psychic powers. Composing the air into some kind of solid projectile like a rock is quite feasable though, if you're able to form a shield.
Dissolving the target on a molecular level? When you start thinking about it even a weak kinetic would be able to kill someone incredibly easily, so much so that we are forced to make the assumption that for some reason it doesn't work (there's a lack of psychic assasins in any race, after all). Choke and blood boil biomancy powers both touch upon this theme, however, but are comparitively ineffective.
I agree with Marco though that if something seems a plausible use of a power you should allow it, although maybe add a bit of difficulty on. The telekinesis power I think mentions this concept in the rulebook, being the most obviously flexible.
I did a lot of thinking about microtelekinesis when I started trying to write rules for Inquisitor Lucifer. (Who has been shelved until I overcome a few other problems with his/her character. Essentially, Lucifer is a master-manipulator and the most powerful, controlled and warp-safe telekinetic on record.)
But why would a character bother to make a shield of air when he can stop the projectile, neo-style? Why bother firing a projectile of solid air when you can fire a small pebble off of the ground? Why bother ripping someone apart on the molecular scale when you can just rip their brainstem in half, or tear a hole in their heart.
When I attempted to write rules for Inquisitor Lucifer, I came up with forty three different applications to his/her telekinetic abilities, ranging from telekinetic lock-picking and weapon jamming right up to telekinetic disembowelment (Just pulling a person's innards out through their mouth). Things got kind of complicated, on the whole... Which is one of the reasons that the character got shelved.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 30, 2011, 10:17:43 PM
I go for this sort of thing 100%. I might impose extra difficulty if a character were doing something they hadn't practised before, but I absolutely encourage the use of psychic talents in innovative ways.
WOW!!!! a concept marko isn't blowing holes in, i must be stoned :o
Quote from: Ynek on January 31, 2011, 04:19:12 PM<Snip>
But why would a character bother to make a shield of air when he can stop the projectile, neo-style?</Snip>
The reason for a shield is simple - perception. Most projectiles are simply too small and moving too fast for the psyker to be able to perceive them. Without being able to perceive the projectile how can you stop it?
You can judge the general area through which the projectile might pass and thus create some means to deflect it (personally I'd favour gravitational anomolies rather than air though) but the human mind can only work so fast, can only process so much information.
As an aside I would tend to avoid "the most" of anything - if for no other reason that if a novel comes out featuring your "most" then you have to do a lot of rewriting.
In the case of psychic ability it's even more fraught as you have to compare yourself to the Alphas, the world breaking psychers... Most, after all, are warp-safe right up until the bullet enters their brain so that they do not endanger their worlds (At least IIRC).
Reminds me a lot of the Warlocks from the Ethshar books (The Reluctant warlord probably has the best description of their abilities, and shows what they can do if not limited).
One problem you'll have is perception. Sure he might be able to pull molecules of air together into a solid blade, but can he percieve each molecule and tell it where to move? In addition to the Kenetic Powers, you'd need powers of perception beyond human normal as well.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on February 01, 2011, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: Ynek on January 31, 2011, 04:19:12 PM<Snip>
But why would a character bother to make a shield of air when he can stop the projectile, neo-style?</Snip>
The reason for a shield is simple - perception. Most projectiles are simply too small and moving too fast for the psyker to be able to perceive them. Without being able to perceive the projectile how can you stop it?
Well, when it comes to microtelekinesis, a bullet is almost infinitely larger than an atom, or a diatomic molecule which might consitute a component of air. Additionally, atoms and molecules in their gaseous state move at an incredible velocity, and their velocity increases exponentially as thermic energy increases... Additionally, if there are two bullets, and more than a hundred quintillion atoms in an 'air shield', then stopping the bullet requires much less 'power' to manage.
Also, bear in mind that microtelekinesis would probably require quite sharp perceptions, anyway. You're always going to be moving lots of tiny things around. Whether that's a bullet in flight or the inner workings of a lock several metres away...
I'll agree that gravitational anomalies and distortions are a more reasonable explanation than 'solidifying air'. I just thought that neo-style bullet-freezing was a more feisable method of stopping bullets hitting you than attempting to make 'air armour'.
In the Ravenor omnibus, there is a char, I think it is Patience Kys, who is a telekine, and she deflects bullets, might even have frozen some, she uses telekenetic blades as throwing knifes, also spins them as a shield to deflect bullets. and my favorite, she pulls enemies out of cover and shoots them!
Moving a billion different items, in different directions, at different speeds...etc simultaneously suggests a brain far in advance of anything we can comprehend...
Similarly while it might be possible to move individual atoms around using telekinesis under a tunnelling electron microscope I would strongly suggest that, barring such tools, a Psyker should only work with what he can perceive - he may know that the feel of wind on his face is the result of loads of Nitrogen, some Oxygen, CO2... and a few trace molecules impacting on the molecules which make up the cell walls of his own skin but...
I might even go so far as to say that a Psyker able to manipulate matter on the atomic scale to produce results of significance on the macro scale isn't going to survive long, they'd be like Dr Manhattan, growing more detached from a world where nothing exists in any real terms by the day from their first expression of ability... and that's assuming that they don't disconstitute themselves (at which point, as all of the neurons which make them up are made of atoms, there is no way back).
TBH it's practically the definition of an Alpha+ Psyker - and that's where I'd leave it.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on February 02, 2011, 01:28:09 PM
Moving a billion different items, in different directions, at different speeds...etc simultaneously suggests a brain far in advance of anything we can comprehend...
Though, technically, being able to reach into an inherently self-contradictory realm of formless energy, untapped potential and sentient nightmares and use that to defy natural law at will... also suggests a brain far beyond comprehension, albeit in a different way.
Quotea Psyker should only work with what he can perceive
Which is fine, if the psyker was limited only to the senses we take for granted. However, psyniscience (the ability to perceive the warp and its influence upon the world, as well as to perceive things through the medium of the Warp) has the way of complicating what might otherwise be the simple notion of "what the psyker can perceive".
I'm not saying that atomic-level telekinesis is likely, but rather that there are more than a few elements that complicate simple definition.
Sure, an individual psyker may not be able to manipulate atoms and sub-atomic particles... but that doesn't mean he can't, say, constrict a few of the target's blood vessels with a thought or do something similarly precise-but-human-scale.
My personal thoughts on Physic powers in general is that their are no restrictions on what any individual psycher can do other than those implemented by the mind. The reasons for these restrictions vary from safety (In theory a gamma grade psycher could open a gateway into the warp, controlling it on the other hand...), to skill. It's one of the reason the Imperium is so leery about psychic talent in general, who knows what some otherwise indistinguishable drone will do if threatened?
My advice for dealing with microkinesis is to focus less on the technical side and more on the spiritual al la Avatar: the last airbender, i.e. How does he sense incoming bullets? By sensing the disrupted air. This is W40K, even for ordinary grunts mind over matter is a very real and tangible force.
On the topic of creative application just focus on a specific discipline and effect and try to imagine how that might be applied in different circumstances.
E.g.
Khedesh the mighty reached out with his mind to the lock, before shattering the fragile inner workings by venting the air through the keyhole.
or
Thinking fast; she spun around instinctively moving her body through the poses of Whistling stride before a final flick of her wrist slammed the bundle of compressed gas into the unfortunate guardsman's head.
Finally as others have mentioned the warp is an infinite and uncontrollable realm of energy and psychic powers revolve around bring a little of that unpredictability into the material world. Blowing up a tank with your mind works because you think it does.
Part of the problem with psychic powers in the 40kverse is that the method of their operation is the Warp but the medium is the mind.
Given the generous amounts of handwavium that the Warp allows, we can dispense with many side-effects, but can't ignore the fact that the more one draws on the Warp, the more dangerous it becomes.
In the case of micro-telekinesis, the psyker must first draw on the Warp to alter his own powers of perception (technically a form of biomancy), then to reach out to an individual molecule (telekinesis), then simultaneously to a few million other molecules (a bit like a telekine who can simultaneously Psychic Impel a million people in one go: scary!).
R.
Nothing really useful to add, but most "Supers" style games and RPGs clearly encourage you to use rather straight forward powers in different and intersesting ways. They might be a useful paradigm to look at to get the ball rolling for mechanics or simple ideas.
I'd suggest that "Supers" games are probably the wrong place to be looking for inspiration...
The first example to my head...
Problem: Hulk can't fly, he doesn't feel like a proper "super" unless he can fly...
Solution: Make Hulk fly.
"Reason": He's the most powerful creature on earth so he must have the most powerful legs, he should therefore be able to jump to a degree which means he might as well be flying.
It's a fairly extreme example but it illustrates the point that "Super" games are built on the comic genre and its pretentions and mores. Three-dimensionality of movement is important in comics because of the way it looks on the page and therefore it must be there, even if that means rather more questions than answers.
The Narrative of Inquisitor will often do something similar, characters have survived situations in manners which strain credulity (because their story isn't yet over and therefore they need to be around for the rest of it), chance is warped because it makes the story better... but it is still important to the story that things still make a degree of sense on the human scale.
It is still important that there be a story, one consistant with the 40kverse, behind all of these coincidences.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on February 08, 2011, 01:37:45 PM
I'd suggest that "Supers" games are probably the wrong place to be looking for inspiration...
The first example to my head...
Problem: Hulk can't fly, he doesn't feel like a proper "super" unless he can fly...
Solution: Make Hulk fly.
"Reason": He's the most powerful creature on earth so he must have the most powerful legs, he should therefore be able to jump to a degree which means he might as well be flying.
It's a fairly extreme example but it illustrates the point that "Super" games are built on the comic genre and its pretentions and mores. Three-dimensionality of movement is important in comics because of the way it looks on the page and therefore it must be there, even if that means rather more questions than answers.
The Narrative of Inquisitor will often do something similar, characters have survived situations in manners which strain credulity (because their story isn't yet over and therefore they need to be around for the rest of it), chance is warped because it makes the story better... but it is still important to the story that things still make a degree of sense on the human scale.
It is still important that there be a story, one consistant with the 40kverse, behind all of these coincidences.
Yeah, well anyway.
The game mechanics at least have mechanisms for doing unusual things with your powers that are not expressly written out as the norm. Could be worth investigating the design philosophy they use or even the specific mechanics.
The same could be said of variosu games Magic systesm too.