Right then, I have many questions it would seem...
1. Are the '-10% to hit per shot fired' penalties cumulative over multiple shooting actions?
The rulebook says '-10% for every shot taken' not 'every shot taken as part of a semi-automatic shooting action' so say I get 4 actions of shooting at semi-auto (4) (4x4=16 shots) does each shot suffer a -160% to hit, or just a -40%
2. Let's say I get 2 actions of aiming (+40% to hit) before firing a semi (4) burst at a target. I have a BS of 50 and there are no range/movement penalties to hit. The first shot hits on 50% (50+40-40=50) while the following three only hit on 10% or less (50-40=10). Is this correct?
3. I spend one action aiming, then fire at semi (4) once again. Ordinarily, this would give me one shot at -20% and three at -40%. However, if I have rock steady aim then I don't lose the aim bonus and all four shots are at only -20% to hit. Is this correct?
4. Assuming I've got this right so far, let's say that I spend three actions aiming (+60%) before letting rip with another semi (4) burst. Ordinarily, this would give one shot at +20% and three at -40%, but with Rock Steady Aim it works slightly differently.
And this is where I come unstuck. Does the rule mean that my first shot is at +20% and the remaining three are at -20%, or that all four are at -20% to hit? If the answer is the latter, what's the point of aiming more than once if you have rock steady aim and an automatic weapon?
5. According to the rules for full auto, you never get an aim bonus. Now I'm fairly confident that my machine-gunner grandfather would disagree with this! Plus, what's the point of resting heavy weapons? Does Inq2 deal with full auto in a slightly more sensible way, and does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on the issue?
Cheers,
A12
I was wondering about this myself during our last game, in between your frankly gobsmacking ability to roll critical successes...
I'm guessing a cumulative penalty makes more sense than one across the board. After all, the problem with full auto is the recoil, and that's going to throw the aim off more the longer you hold the trigger. Skills like hip-shooting and rock steady aim would have some affect on that, so would aiming actions, but I still believe that the last shot from a 12 round clip is going to be going somewhere rather different than the first, no matter how well aimed.
To me the most realistic way to manage semi auto fire would be to have an increasing accuracy penalty for each shot fired. so the 1st round would include the aim bonus and have no fire penalty the 2nd will have lost the aim and suffer -10% the 3rd would be at -20% and so on. this would represend the cumulative effect of the recoils as each round is fired.
This approach wouldnt really work for fully auto fire though as you are not really targetting a specific point you fill what ever space with a blaze of fire. regarding the above comment about machine gunners they rarely if ever fire on full auto when targetting infantry. quick bursts of a 5 or so are far more accurate, if you stand 20m in front of a car with an assault rifle and fire on full auto you wont hit it more than a couple of times
Quote from: SpanielBear on April 29, 2011, 08:42:31 PM
I was wondering about this myself during our last game, in between your frankly gobsmacking ability to roll critical successes...
Yeah that was a tad freaky...
In our game I was working on a cumulative penalty. But thinking about it the 4 round burst is from a single squeeze of the trigger, and while the recoil will definitely have an effect, it's not quite the same as just spray and pray as it were.
I've played a couple of other games where auto-fire has an increasing penalty with each shot and I agree that makes the most sense. Plus it's not like you suddenly lose all your aim when you fire off more than a single round- you keep the weapon up at the very least!
So say we have an increasing penalty of -10 on each shot after the first? Although that would make autofire a lot more likely to hit than it does now. My gut is telling me it needs to be a higher penalty, perhaps -20 per shot, up to a maximum of 10x the number of shots?
Whatever it is, it has to be simple and require the minimum possible amount of maths- every calculation is another bit of play wasted.
I'll do some maths in the morning.
Quote from: Aurelius 12 on April 29, 2011, 07:26:35 PM1. Are the '-10% to hit per shot fired' penalties cumulative over multiple shooting actions?
No, the one penalty applies to all shots, -10% times the number of shots in that action.
Quote2. Is this correct?
No, the aim bonus is not lost until the end of the action. This also negates questions 3 & 4, so moving on to question 5...
Quote5. According to the rules for full auto, you never get an aim bonus. Now I'm fairly confident that my machine-gunner grandfather would disagree with this!
True, but this is because full auto in Inquisitor does not represent sensible military machine gunning, it represents movie-esque "Spray and Pray" at a bunch of bad guys.
Quote from: Aurelius 12 on April 29, 2011, 11:10:14 PMI've played a couple of other games where auto-fire has an increasing penalty with each shot and I agree that makes the most sense.
Most realistic, yes. Most sense, no.
As it is right now, it's an abstraction that averages out the chance of a hit and applies it to all shots to save recalculating every time.
It's the same as rolling three D6 on a 3+, a 4+ and a 5+. It's more realistic, but the expected number of successes is the same as three D6 on a 4+, and the latter takes less thinking.
So the two actions of aiming mean every shot from a semi (4) weapon hits on normal BS assuming there are no range/movement penalties?
Blimey, that makes semi auto even more powerful than I thought, especially if the penalties are only per action and not cumulative overall.
Ok a new question about RSA: Does the 'doesn't lose the aim for firing on semi auto' mean that the character can move aim and semi auto fire, or does it mean that a level of aim bonus is retained after the first round of semi auto shooting?
A character can use the skill to move after aiming but he can only maintain one level of aiming when he does so (i.e. keeping the gun raised to eye level). So he can aim as many times as he likes, but as soon as he uses the skill to move he'll go down to one level of aim.
The skill also means that after firing semi auto he will retain one level of aiming (i.e. the gun will still be at eye level) - so he could aim three times, fire on semi auto, and if he fires again it will be at one level of aim.
EDIT: It also means he can combine walking with shooting and still maintain one level of aim.
I see Rock Steady Aim as a skill that will usually go to a character who stalks his target, whereas a sniper might have Deadeye Shot or a character trained to snap off shots while running between cover should have Hipshooting. (Obviously they're not the only uses for the skills - I just use that as an example as I've seem some characters who are said to be 'good at shooting' so have been given all three.)
Quote from: Aurelius 12 on April 30, 2011, 08:04:48 AMSo the two actions of aiming mean every shot from a semi (4) weapon hits on normal BS assuming there are no range/movement penalties?
Yes.
RobSkib said something similar about the combination of Marco's Rock Steady Aim and Semi(3) stubber at the IGT (when he took two firing actions and hit all six shots on "Big Mack", five of them placed), but he started with
three levels of aim and there was still a lot of luck in it.
QuoteOk a new question about RSA
A character with Rock Steady Aim can retain one level of aim under two of the circumstances where most characters would lose their aim completely - after firing on semi auto, as well as moving (but only when up to walking speed, crawling and jumping not included).
So, theoretically, you could take a level of aim, walk, then fire on Semi and still have a level of aim left at the end of it. I have also used it to aim as a combined action with walking, although GMs may not necessarily allow that one. (Although it is
very cool to just saunter into cover, aiming and firing as you go.)
QuoteBlimey, that makes semi auto even more powerful than I thought, especially if the penalties are only per action and not cumulative overall
Only if you manage to get off enough Actions to get two aims and a shoot. Fancy betting on how often a character is left aiming while everyone else gets a round of shooting at him to meas up his aim?
R.
This is just a thought that crossed my mind and bearing in mind I do not have good fluff or real world ballistic knowledge bear with me but feel free to slap me :P
Am I right in thinking the penalties for semi and full auto are based on the gun recoil which is caused in solid ammunition guns by the explosive element?
If so, is there a similar occurence with semi or full auto Las weapons, as I cannot recall in all my reading of gaunts ghosts that Las weapons have significant recoil?
Just a thought anyway! Slap away....
R
I've been looking at aiming lately, and i think that a character should be allowed more than 2 aiming actions in a row, and that the second aiming action should have a penalty. At least if they're unsupported. And using a rifle, or two handed weapon.
Has anyone fired a rifle from standing unsupported? Sometimes it's more accurate to just snap it off rather than try to aim, and have your arm shake the sight.
@ Mr kickass - I've not fired a rifle but do Clay pigeon shoot a lot and I definitely think based on that, that for the length if time an action is supposed to cover a penalty for second action aiming doesn't make sense, BUT that is based on shotguns, albeit big juicy ones :P
Quote from: Shannow on May 01, 2011, 04:01:29 PMthe gun recoil which is caused in solid ammunition guns by the explosive element?
No, it's about the projectile having mass. In simple terms, recoil is equal and opposite to the momentum of the projectile.
In more complex terms, the combusted propellant also has mass and is leaving the muzzle at some speed (faster, in fact, than the projectile), so is also factored into the recoil. However, it is usually less significant.
QuoteIf so, is there a similar occurence with semi or full auto Las weapons
Yes, because Semi represents firing quickly without taking as much time as a more considered Single shot, and Full represents holding down the trigger and waving your gun in the rough direction of a group of enemies in the hope you might hit some of them.
However, I do make a nod to the fact that lasguns have negligible (if any) recoil with the recoil rules in the Revised Armoury. (But those rules will get a slight tweak in the next version).
Quote from: JoelMcKickass on May 01, 2011, 04:29:06 PMHas anyone fired a rifle from standing unsupported?
As a matter of fact, I have. And I'm not even close to being up to the standards of our characters, but I don't get jelly arms after a few seconds.
For the most part, as double aim actions are fairly rare and triple aim actions even more so, I don't see any reason to discourage them further.
The other thing is that (yet again) it's an abstraction that does things with simpler rules that might not be entirely realistic as played, but give an end result that is about right.
Perhaps an aim action represents the character mentally working out range and wind before they even raise the rifle, them waiting for a clearer shot, lowering their rifle briefly to steady their arms again - or any number of things. It doesn't really matter.
It just represents taking more time and care over your shot, however that may be.
Thanks Marco for clearing that up :)
That's a fair point, and i keep over judging distances in Inquisitor. It could be argued that the distance modifier already takes that into account, jelly arms is something that'd happen after the 50 metre range, and even then only if you're trying to place a shot rather than just slotting them.
I keep over complicating this stuff.