Well So far I've hit quite a few roadblocks on this forum where there are some who say eldar are as OP as space marines (which even in 40k terms that's not close..) So I've decided to get to the bottom of why Xenos are frowned upon for valid choices when clearly they are on par with imperial forces (stats wise).
TL;DR Why are (Insert alien race) frowned upon for full warband choices.
Because 40K terms are irrelevant.
I could actually leave that sentence, and it would contain everything that is important. However, I would say, it is not Eldar that are OP. It is the idea of a Shadowseer, a Striking Scorpion, and Corsair Prince travelling together thats OP. Why is the Shadowseer not with his/her Troupe? Why is the Scorpion so far from his/her shrine? Why is the Corsair away from his/her ship? OP in Inquisitor is as much a question of story as of the tabletop.
Short version: Because the game is very deliberately based around the Imperium!
Longer version: Inquisitor is not "Skirmish 40k". It's a narrative game designed to focus on the internal conflicts of the Imperium and its organisations. It is often hard to justify why aliens would care about why the tithes of *insert planet name here* have stopped or their interest in rooting out a Chaos cult in the depths of an underhive.
Also, you aren't entirely taking in what has been said. It's not just about the Eldar, it's about WHICH Eldar. Many of the models you are using are purely front-line warriors who would have little place in the battle for the Emperor's soul. DapperAnarchist covers that reasonably well.
QuoteSo I've decided to get to the bottom of why Xenos are frowned upon for valid choices when clearly they are on par with imperial forces (stats wise)
Piffle. Even if you're basing this on 40k stats (which you absolutely should not, those stats are designed for game balance, not fluff), then your Shadowseer would be faster, more skilled, more dangerously armed and more stealthy than an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper.
In the fluff, Eldar are more than a match for a human, and that's how it is in Inquisitor too (I assume you've actually read the Eldar article?). This often applies to most xeno races in some fashion - be it Tau firepower, Eldar skill/speed or Ork toughness, these things all end up unbalancing gameplay unless approached in the right way.
The right way means finding individuals who might believably have reason to be interfering in human affairs. Striking Scorpions are not those individuals. Striking Scorpions are the Eldar's combat specialists in the same way as Space Marines are the Imperium's combat specialists, and they therefore have as much place in the game as the Astartes. That is to say, a rare one, and more often than not, probably GM controlled.
I touched on this in the other thread, but part of the reason is that Inquisitor is an Imperium-centric game. That's not to say xenos can't be used, but it's often harder to fit them into the story without them becoming the centre of the story and that can make other players feel their warband is sidelined. If you have a game set in Imperial space then it can be difficult to explain why xenos are there - or even how they're there without being killed by zealous citizens or enforcers. You also have to explain how your aliens move freely around Imperial space.
That all said, xenos warbands can be done - I have a couple, and in fact will be bringing one to the Conclave on Saturday, so don't feel too discouraged. There are pitfalls that you should try to avoid though, and any feedback you get will be well intentioned and usually given to help you avoid making the same mistakes that many of us have done in the past.
Pretty much I've laid out the story in a previous post, waiting on more comments to see what I come up with but the Corsair isn't a Prince just a regular pirate with a tiny ship. He would fall in line with guardians in terms of stats and abilities.
What I find is happening is people doubt the story already in place with many saying, "Can't do this" with very little "Here's how that can work.." AKA: Here's a striking scorpion, she could be away from her shrine for X reason with Y motives yanno, something that's a bit more productive to the argument.
It's very Negative (if you can feel that over the internet...) and as a person who's trying desperately to not have such a negative outlook, its really hard to push past that..
Also trying to find a list of alien races that could be used and have only found like 2 or 3 (Hrud.. so on so forth) The story line of course revolves around them but it in no way intrudes upon other's stories. I suppose I have to get back into the gaming portion to understand the lack of alien races.
Any other suggestions to those like me wishing to use different aliens in game? What can be done to ensure a smooth transition between an all hrud warband or perhaps a detachment of Gue'vesa with a Pathfinder.
Quote from: Ramnok on October 27, 2011, 10:56:42 PM
It's very Negative (if you can feel that over the internet...) and as a person who's trying desperately to not have such a negative outlook, its really hard to push past that..
It's my bedtime so I don't have time to write much and so apologise if this seems a little terse. I just read this comment and similar ones you wrote in the other thread - I suggest you don't worry too much about what people here think of your idea. There's no need to get people on this forum to validate your characters unless you actually plan to play against them (have you checked the 'where we live' thread to see if there's anyone in your area? It's a long shot, but may be worth putting your name on the list). It doesn't matter if a few people don't like your warband ideas - you're on the edge of where the game works best so it's not surprising there's some controversy, why not post your story in the In Character forum and ask for feedback in the Out of Character forum - just as good models can win people over, so too can a good story.
Quoteperhaps a detachment of Gue'vesa with a Pathfinder.
As I said, I don't have time to properly answer, but this suggestion gives the impression that you're still thinking too much in terms of a 40k style wargame where you have a team out to kill the opposition. There's a reason the only Tau GW released was a Water Caste negotiator - to get away from the same old archetypes you see in games of 40k and explore the shadowy corners of the universe instead.
Ahhh... I think I see where you're coming from here.. So its okay to include a character that has a checkered background but within the realm of what you would find in the game. Aka say I did use a Gue'vesa IG he would be on par but just a single unit while he could have a couple of other desperados with him that show their checkered life as well... So if I did have my Striking Scorpion as my leader I would have to include others such as an Imperial Agent (I read in one of the Deathwatch books "way of the warrior" or somethin? That the inquisitors do work with Eldar on occasion so its not far from improbable. The rest could be soldiers of common variety.
Move away from the Soldier narrative. Yes, most people on the Inquisitor table will be able to fight - but they will not all be warriors. While every Inquisitor would know how to fight, not all would be warriors, or even be able to - a crippled Inquisitor is still an Inquisitor.
I actually was going to contribute an idea, but I have unfortunately decided to steal it for myself! Thats a risk here... so I'll try another one. Lets say you have the Scorpion. He/she has a reason for travelling the stars without the rest of the shrine - perhaps its a lost shrine? Perhaps someone stole something from it? There are enough lost craftworlds to justify a few survivors out there. However, this Scorpion is on their own - the Eldar aren't spread out enough to support every last lonely warrior. Well, the Dark Eldar might, but this is more likely to amuse them than make then empathise. So, the Scorpion needs support. How about a cult that worships the Eldar? Such things are hinted at in various places, and make sense. To a population that was attacked by them, they may seem like demons - or to the oppressed, like saviours, as the Eldar way of war tends to ignore civilian populations and focus on military positions. The cult might have a priest, a scribe, some cult warriors, perhaps some sort of matriarch, that sort of thing.
I've read up on all the eldar fluff so far that was in dark magenta 3 but there isn't issue 4 and 5 yet? it was said to be covered in there..
I may rework my Eldar a bit but the general idea is the same, I'd like it to be all Eldar. I may think of doing a Bonesinger or other type of eldar (scrounging around the eldar codex (old and new)) to see what I can come up with.
Quote from: Ramnok on October 27, 2011, 11:55:58 PM
Ahhh... I think I see where you're coming from here.. So its okay to include a character that has a checkered background but within the realm of what you would find in the game. Aka say I did use a Gue'vesa IG he would be on par but just a single unit while he could have a couple of other desperados with him that show their checkered life as well...
That's not quite what I was getting at when I said 'shadowy corners' - what I meant was that Inquisitor is your opportunity to create characters not seen in the spotlight that is the 40k games and it's codices. Think about when Inquisitor was released - the game was full of character archetypes that existed hadn't come from the 40k codices (although some were subsequently shoehorned in to a codex) - for example arco-flagellants, death cultists, enforcers, even the IG were represented by a very atypical guardsman who was like nothing seen in any codex, Sgt. Stone.
By using the codex as your main inspiration you risk missing the Inquisitor ethos - it's not the battle on the front lines of a war zone (that's covered by the 40k game), it's the secret wars that take place behind the scenes. Yes you can shoehorn in a marine; but he's really more suited the front lines, not the secret war that is Inquisitor. The same goes for other battlefield archetypes such as aspect warriors, fire warriors, necron warriors etc. Hence why GW didn't release a Fire Warrior model for the game, they did a Water Caste envoy. Similarly, when I made a Tau warband I made my Fire Caste a secret agent - something very different to the Fire Warriors you see in games of 40k but something that fits into the battle that Inquisitor is trying to depict.
In Inquisitor an Administratum adept can change the course of a game and is just as valid a choice for a warband as an arbite. So as Dapper says, try to move away from the focus on soldiers and widen your spotlight to include other types of characters. Often the best warbands are that would have no place of the field of a 40k game. The same goes when choosing weapons and equipment - your games of Inquisitor aren't set on a front line battlefield environment, so your characters shouldn't be equipped for one. Games of Inquisitor shouldn't always just be straight up fights - some scenarios should be won through brains and guile so plan your warband accordingly. The more varied the archetypes in your warband, the more options you open up in game. If you only take soldier types, then combat is your only solution to any scenario and your games will always just be a straight skirmish and Inquisitor can be so much more than that.
Okay, I think I'm gathering a bit more of the pieces in my mind. While fighting is a part of the game, its not all a game can be. Kinda like core DND? So when I make choices of characters I should deviate as far away from codicies as possible. Aka choosing an eldar who's taken the path of the artisan would be better accepted then one of the aspect shrines. Also this info comes from 40k online, I went there and tried to find it but it seems they've taken it down or moved it. I wish I had a pdf to print it from for you guys.. they were the culmination of tons of eldar fans who worked hard on putting stats to a codex and not making them overpowered but have advantages.
If there was a bonified list for eldar statistics even if its "Eldar warriors, Eldar civilians, Eldar pirates" ect ect... so on... it would be a great help.
Quote from: Ramnok on October 28, 2011, 05:48:48 PM
Okay, I think I'm gathering a bit more of the pieces in my mind. While fighting is a part of the game, its not all a game can be. Kinda like core DND? So when I make choices of characters I should deviate as far away from codicies as possible. Aka choosing an eldar who's taken the path of the artisan would be better accepted then one of the aspect shrines.
That's pretty much it - I don't know much about DND, but yes the game is about more than combat so you should try to explore other areas of eldar life too. The trick you'll have is figuring out why an eldar on the path of the artisan is involved in the kinds of scenario that come up in Inquisitor games/campaigns - but if you can do that then I think you'll be onto a winner.
QuoteIf there was a bonified list for eldar statistics even if its "Eldar warriors, Eldar civilians, Eldar pirates" ect ect... so on... it would be a great help.
Why not make up and post some stats and start a discussion - GW gave us stats for rangers, pathfinders etc, so you could use those as a starting point. I'm sure between us we could come up with something good...
I believe what Kaled had said earlier pretty much hits the nail on the head. I made the mistake when I was younger to believe that Inquisitor was just a large scale 40k battle game. When asked to GM a group game at my local hobby shop. I read the book through 3 times and began to feel much different about it. It all became clear to me this game was intended to be enjoyed in a "cold war" scenario/setting.
I don't have an issue with Aliens in warbands. I have a problem with all Alien warbands. It's not that it's broken or anything like that. Being a GM for years in other RPG type games I talk to my players about their characters and in my mind try to understand why they think and do as they do. It's difficalt to get into the head of a character when the player doesn't truly understand or relate to that character. An all alien warband is difficult to translate. Because their combined experiences and thought processes are for a lack of a better word...Alien.
Josh
While I find it to be an issue too, I've found the ones that shine the brightest are those who do pull off something exotic and alien.
Saying someone has a problem with all alien warbands is just like saying you really like fantasy movies cause they wear loincloths... While I do understand this is a Imperium centric game part of the hobby is to explore things that are out of the box, maybe if you spent some time to get to know the reasons behind story lines and choices of warbands. My reasons were certainly not because they would be cool or they would be overpowered or even that the amount of people who have done the conversions are very rare and I'd like to leave my mark (partially but not the reason..) I feel the Eldar are a race who have lived on the edge of chaos and through their dying breaths they have become all but whispers in the most secluded worlds.
These aliens while they truly are mysterious not all wish to destroy the Imperium nor do some of them have to have motives besides making their way through the galaxy in which their goals are shrouded to even them. Without a seer who is to say these lost Eldar don't uncover a chaos cult that draws the interest of the Inquisition and escape before they are captured. Who's to say that their dealings don't gather interest in the sector they currently travel in?
The Eldar were not exempt from the rules in fact the creators of inquisitor even encourage something very different from the norm. While I do have a better view on the game of inquisitor which is more of the story it tells as opposed to the units killed. Not skirmish 40k.
I've hit a road block on timelines for my story so sorry its taking awhile. Just like you cant judge a book by its cover you cant judge an alien by their pointy ears...
Quote from: Ramnok on October 29, 2011, 01:08:50 AM
Saying someone has a problem with all alien warbands is just like saying you really like fantasy movies cause they wear loincloths...
Wait? Isn't that the reason "Xenia Warrior Princess" was on like 5 seasons? Because of her loincloth. ;)
Seriously. I see what your getting at. I don't believe anyone here is trying to step on your creativity. We just like to see synergy in warbands. And I feel in most situations an all Alien warband in a human dominant setting would be like oil and water. But if you can pull it off. I say kudos to you Sir! :) I wish you luck and I look forward to your back-stories.
BTW... Very nice Striking Scorpion.
Josh
ty tons, it means a alot when people enjoy my work. I actually like the input I've gotten and with a few pieces of eldar art I've seen from Kaled, I think I will go with one of those for my pilot. Payday! time to see if I cant get me a model to start convertin... Hmmm... choices choices...
What other Species are viable for this game in the company of humans? Vespid Weaponcrafter (no stealing! I'm working on a concept sketches)? Kroothound? Perhaps a Jokaero Weaponsmith? (oooo doing him definately...)
(http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/Anakonga_1.jpg)
(Not my model but its nicely done)
I was thinking of bringing such a race to the game, say Jokaero Merchant, shady dealings but can always get the job done...
Hopefully I won't derail the thread but there's a few things I wanna say:
I really like the fact that all of you guys on the forum are so helpfull towards Ramnok.
I really like the fact that Ramnok seems to be taking your points and criticisms the right way.
Well, to try and get back on topic DapperAnarchists idea of an Eldar(maybe several?) travelling in search of something is interesting. A few questions for you to answer for yourself to build some story:
Who is the Eldar?
What is he/she looking for?
Does the Eldar need help finding what he/she is looking for?
Who is helping the Eldar? (Maybe a rogue trader who wants something from the Eldar)
Does the Eldar have all the weapons and gear they want or need in their search or did they have to leave in a hurry?
Hopefully my ideas aren't totally stupid. If they are, please tell Ramnok and me which ones are.
You asked some good questions, some I can kinda help see my point of view... The Eldar are lost, their craftworld left several worlds with several of their Eldar suddenly when these worlds were in great need there was a striking scorpion shrine on one of those worlds yet the planet and shrine were lost to a massive ork wagghhh! A Distress call was sent through the webway to which Vree the eldar corsair and his crew (tiny crew) set off to help his former craftworld. He loses several of his crew in the escape but the eldar he rescued were so thankful to be rescued that they stayed aboard to help run the ship (these can be NPC's in campaigns and such depending on the GM I find, lol)
They currently start off as 3 with the bonesinger as the primary goal for them. He happened to have some direct contact with the imperium and has slain quite a few mon-keigh inquisitors as well. He carries a long rifle with a side weapon (He can craft if he has wraithbone so some secondary objectives could be that which would shape if they repair and reload. Always on the brink of destruction. Eldar are going to turn heads and get inquisitors involved.
I'm doing a side project now, I'm going to try and scratch build a model, I've never done it before and I'm a bit rusty on how to do it (thank god for the internet..) and hopefully we can meet some other intriguing races...
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i360/Ramnok/IMG_20111030_021415.jpg) update time what can this be?
Quote from: Ramnok on October 29, 2011, 09:28:51 AMI was thinking of bringing such a race to the game, say Jokaero Merchant, shady dealings but can always get the job done...
Not possible I'm afraid.*
The Jokero simply don't communicate, it's not even known whether they can.
It's not possible to get a Jokero to build something for you, they don't seem to value anything by which you could barter, capture one and try to force it to build something and what it builds will inevitably be a means of escape...
They are in fact a pretty good example of how alien the alien races of the 40k verse are - they literally have no handle by which we humans can lever ourselves into their mindset.
*Rogue Trader listing anyway - I don't recall any reference to them after that beyond the one which claimed they'd all been wiped out...
Ah, so you haven't heard - the Jokaero are now basically the Grey Knight's adorable weapon building pets.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on October 31, 2011, 01:43:33 PM
The Jokero simply don't communicate, it's not even known whether they can.
Actually they can and do, although the only word we know from them officially is; Artemorra, which is their name for the Deciever.
was there any additional info given about the Psy-gore or any crystaline race? if so can you all point me to it, I've made a model based on it and thought it was psy-gore but I could be wrong..
The Psy-Gore of Perseus appears only as a source for a crystalline weapon in the 3rd Ed Rulebook - its not stated that they themselves were crystalline (after all, humans aren't made of metal, but our weapons are), and indeed the only things derivable from that are that they have roughly hand-sized "holders" (whether or not they are hands) and they use or are "associated" with crystal weapons. However! In the DM article Things That Dwell In Darkness, the Psy-Gore weapon appears again, and is stated to only be reloadable by a Psy-Gore, who use their own body mass to fuel their weapons. That's fan-background though.
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on October 31, 2011, 10:10:13 PM
That's fan-background though.
Albeit very nicely illustrated fan background. ;)
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on October 31, 2011, 10:10:13 PM
roughly hand-sized "holders"
No scale of reference is given in the 3rd Ed rulebook. For all we know, the psy gore shardthrower could be the length of a human torso, and be held between a psy-gore's enormous alien buttocks. So, saying that they have hand-sized holders is a bit of an extrapolation, given that we seem to only have incomplete data.
Although if you're just looking for crystalline aliens, the Dracolith are a good example, even if virtually nothing is known about them.
http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1757.msg23060#msg23060 (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1757.msg23060#msg23060)
Hope you like him, I've since gone with Psy-gore as a crystalline race, I figure if they created the weapon to be used by them they must have some way of reloading it.
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on October 31, 2011, 06:04:34 PM
Ah, so you haven't heard - the Jokaero are now basically the Grey Knight's adorable weapon building pets.
The more I hear about the latest edition the more I want to retreat entirely to the Rogue Trader fluff...
Seriously?!?
So an entire species for whom freedom seems the only goal are now held in thrall to less than seven hundred of some of the most hidebound creatures in the galaxy.
And I thought it was bad enough when Grey Knights stopped coming exclusively in psychic terminator squads...
Grey Knights were in power armour back in their first appearance in Rogue Trader days, then they went to all being in Terminator armour during their second iteration in Rogue Trader and then later to the current mix of the two. Their armour colour has changed over the years too...
As for Jokaero, I too would prefer to see them in their Rogue Trader incarnation to the more recent one.
I know that the chapter existed before rules were published for them and were therefore effectively a standard Marine army list but the first time I recall seeing them in an official capacity was in Slaves to Darkness and I was sure they were the psychic Terminator squads then...
Quote from: Macabre on October 31, 2011, 09:53:21 PM
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on October 31, 2011, 01:43:33 PM
The Jokero simply don't communicate, it's not even known whether they can.
Actually they can and do, although the only word we know from them officially is; Artemorra, which is their name for the Deciever.
Hang on a tick, I thought the Jokero were supposed to be of highly debateable sentience and that their technological expertise was widely thought to be some sort of 'idiot-savant' type skill. Surely if they have language then that sort of solves that whole question, doesn't it?
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on November 02, 2011, 03:52:43 PM
I know that the chapter existed before rules were published for them and were therefore effectively a standard Marine army list but the first time I recall seeing them in an official capacity was in Slaves to Darkness and I was sure they were the psychic Terminator squads then...
The fluff in Slaves to Darkness describes them as being screened to exclude all but the most powerful psykers and so most have no psychic powers at all. In the army list, both the psychic characters (librarians) and the rest of the chapter are in power armour. The later article on Grey Knight Terminator Squads also says that most Grey Knights do not have psychic powers, but those that do are equipped with Nemesis Force Weapons and equipped with Tactical Dreadnought armour. In the second edition Codex Imperialis it states that 'many' Grey Knights are psykers and the first reference I can find to them all being psykers is Codex: Daemonhunters, but which time you get psychic marines in power and terminator armour.
But back to the Jokaero - I haven't seen the new Grey Knights codex, what does it say about them in there?
I didn't know this stuff about the Jokaero. I'm kinda disappointed in that... Instead of making totally new races to balance they just toss in the occasional model and update their dated models... while its a good move financially it sucks to bring in the new eyes.
While I agree that Inquisitor is PRIMARILY a skirmish/RPG style board miniatures game based around the internal strife that divides various ideals within the Imperium of Man and especially the Inquisition....I feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run (i.e., why GW barely supports it anymore). Catering to every Warhammer 40,000 player by allowing them to play their favorite races and more would have made the game much more successful in the grand scheme of things. That said, I feel that alien races can fit into the background of =][= and create interesting characters/warbands to play and good adversaries for Inquisitorial and Imperial characters/players. Given that the game is mostly based on the Inquisition, aliens should not be a huge, central part of it though. If aliens are to be used, they should fit in with the Blanchian "gothic weirdness" style, as well as the dark and shadowy underworlds of the Imperium that give it such a distinct theme and tone.
Even certain elements of the imperium don't fit into the game, it's not just the aliens. Space Marines and their Chaos counterparts are and should always be a rare occurrence. Large units like Dreadnoughts and Terminators even more so. Hell, even run-of-the-mill Imperial guardsmen don't make a whole lot of sense in Inquisitor-unless, of course, if they're in thrall to an Inquisitor or part of his warband- their business is fighting the wars, not investigating the undersides of hive cities.
Quote from: Lucidum on December 12, 2011, 03:37:05 AMI feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run.
It was set for only partial support from day one (the "Big Three" policy having already been decided on), and its reduced support since has entirely been the result of a drive for focusing on those more profitable games -something all specialist games have fallen foul of.
The game's current lack of support is entirely unrelated to its specificity. It would have had to be hugely popular to have avoided such its current fate, and the effect (if any) the narrow focus might have had on the game's popularity is trivial by comparison to that.
QuoteCatering to every Warhammer 40,000 player by allowing them to play their favourite races and more...
The game was produced to allow a deeper look at the side of the Imperium away from the battlefield, and investing the effort in producing models and rules for the full gamut of xenos races and classes would not have been a practical approach to that goal, nor sufficiently profitable to have improved the game's future.
As it is, I am glad that the game stuck to its intended focus rather than "selling out". (A more pejorative term than I would like, but not entirely inappropriate). Because it managed to avoid unnecessarily re-treading over already established (and ultimately distant) fluff, the game managed to dramatically enrich the setting background.
QuoteEven certain elements of the Imperium don't fit into the game, it's not just the aliens.
And those elements aren't in the game. You mention Dreadnoughts and Terminators, neither of which was a model ever done for. (The fact that people are willing to make their own is another matter entirely.)
As far as Space Marines - well, contrary to popular belief, they were and are an essential part of the game. While they can be overused and abused, not having the option for the GM to have a Space Marine/Chaos Marine as The Cavalry or Big Bad for the finale of a campaign just wouldn't be cricket.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on December 12, 2011, 04:49:41 AM
Quote from: Lucidum on December 12, 2011, 03:37:05 AMI feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run.
It was set for only partial support from day one (the "Big Three" policy having already been decided on), and its reduced support since has entirely been the result of a drive for focusing on those more profitable games -something all specialist games have fallen foul of.
Hehe...profitable. Lord of the Rings is quite literally just waiting for the Hobbit movie right now so it can continue for another three years before it dies entirely ::)
QuoteEven certain elements of the Imperium don't fit into the game, it's not just the aliens.
And those elements aren't in the game. You mention Dreadnoughts and Terminators, neither of which was a model ever done for. (The fact that people are willing to make their own is another matter entirely.)
As far as Space Marines - well, contrary to popular belief, they were and are an essential part of the game. While they can be overused and abused, not having the option for the GM to have a Space Marine/Chaos Marine as The Cavalry or Big Bad for the finale of a campaign just wouldn't be cricket.
[/quote]
That part was more about how players of the game now are experimenting with large vehicles and Dreadnoughts and Terminators and the like. While undeniably awesome-looking in 54mm scale....they just aren't made for this game. And Space Marines are a part of the game, yes, but more because GW knows full well that they're one of the primary selling points of 40K as a whole, and the game would have been even more dead without a Space Marine model.
But, I might add, critiquing my last post- which was seriously just my own opinion an analysis of the subject at hand- is NOT the topic of this thread.
As being the "Mega-Nob!" (Ork humor!) Here, I guess ill go ahead and ask my stupid Question. Seeing how as we all know the imperium is a very Xenophobic Society,How would Genetic experiments made by adeptus mechanicus fit into the scheme of things? Could they become inquisitors themselves? Or maybe this is a Question for another topic?
Quote from: Kit on December 12, 2011, 07:59:43 AM
As being the "Mega-Nob!" (Ork humor!) Here, I guess ill go ahead and ask my stupid Question. Seeing how as we all know the imperium is a very Xenophobic Society,How would Genetic experiments made by adeptus mechanicus fit into the scheme of things? Could they become inquisitors themselves? Or maybe this is a Question for another topic?
If this were to continue on this topic, I would say that, unless specifically created using sanctioned techniques, it could be an asset to an Inquisitor's warband. Drugs like polymorphine or creations like servitors and arco-flagellants are sanctioned and "holy" almost, to a degree, although generally creations of that type are tools for an Inquisitor to use and have no rights, no free will, or are submissive minions of the Imperial Cult (such as assassins and the like). Xeno-hybridizing experiments are the work of Heretek biologis or the most radical inquisitors, and would be declared heresy by almost any sane member of the imperium.
Quote from: Lucidum on December 12, 2011, 03:37:05 AMWhile I agree that Inquisitor is PRIMARILY a skirmish/RPG style board miniatures game based around the internal strife that divides various ideals within the Imperium of Man and especially the Inquisition....I feel that this specificity is also why the game largely "failed" in the long run (i.e., why GW barely supports it anymore).
I might suggest that you're confusing cause and effect there.
The difficulty with Inquisitor is that it's not aimed at GWs target demographic (which last I heard was 12 year olds with rich parents whom they expected to give up the hobby within nine months). Because it's not focussed around selling Citadel products it doesn't receive the sort of support that 40k & WFB receive and therefore dwindles.
As to the Genetic experiments question, it's generally accepted (or used to be) that they would not be granted full rights (not that many people within The Imperium have any rights at all) and therefore would not be permitted to rise to positions of power.
One of the primary reasons for this is simply that it's a slippery slope from even the most minor change to Space Marine Inquisitors.
It is however important to remember that the human genome is considered sacred, someone who messes with it in a "real human" is equivalent to someone who steals souls... The experiments therefore (Aphrael strain...etc) are only (theoretically) done with special dispensation from the Omnisiah himself and it's reasonable to see the results of such experimentation as abhuman in the same way as Beastmen and Ogryn.
Quote from: Lucidum on December 12, 2011, 05:29:47 AMHehe...profitable. Lord of the Rings is quite literally just waiting for the Hobbit movie right now so it can continue for another three years before it dies entirely ::)
Not really. LOTR is on the books at least in part because it would have been a big threat to Warhammer Fantasy otherwise.
Someone else producing the fantasy wargame for a series of films that were practically a guaranteed hit? Not good for GW's monopoly.
Also, don't forget there are still contracts with New Line.
QuoteThat part was more about how players of the game now are experimenting with large vehicles and Dreadnoughts and Terminators and the like. While undeniably awesome-looking in 54mm scale....they just aren't made for this game.
Funny, I thought they
were made for this game - hence the whole 54mm thing. :P
Such models are clearly GMing tools, more mobile (and dangerous) scenery than they are characters. Unless, of course, you know any GM that would allow a player a Dreadnought in their Warband?
What is the GM is allowed for his plot and what makes a practical player warband are quite separate matters.
Quote from: Lucidum on December 12, 2011, 05:30:44 AMBut, I might add, critiquing my last post- which was seriously just my own opinion an analysis of the subject at hand- is NOT the topic of this thread.
You argued for aliens to have a more major role in Inquisitor, I made my counter argument. That doesn't seem to be outside the subject matter of "Validity of Aliens in Inquisitor"
Quote from: Kit on December 12, 2011, 07:59:43 AMSeeing how as we all know the Imperium is a very xenophobic society, how would genetic experiments made by the Adeptus Mechanicus fit into the scheme of things? Could they become Inquisitors themselves? Or maybe this is a question for another topic?
That depends somewhat on how you define genetic experiments.
Minor genetic tweaks to humans? They might get away with little to no difference from a regular human, provided they can still pass for human.
Major genetic tweaks to humans? Probably lumped in with abhumans, or maybe even mutants.
Xenos based genetic experiments? Probably shot on sight within the main body of the Imperium.
I would take the severity of the Imperium's attitude to transgenic experiments further - they would be hounded, pursued, detested, to be a combination of the "holy human form" and the "abomination of the xenos" would be to be among the worst kinds of heresy/heretic (which exactly you probably depends on whether you chose to do it).
The Mechanicus does play around with the human genome quite a bit, seen in the various Homunculi (not Haemonculi), COGs, Praetorians, etc, as well as things like the Gland War, the Afriel Strain, and things more hinted at than shown. Indeed, the Vat Grown Servitor who provides the Imperium with much of its automation is most likely modified to have, among other things, a much simpler brain more suitable for the introduction of wetware. But this is all approved modification, and probably has its roots far before the Imperium. More radical alterations, such as the attempts to make new improved Astartes and anything that would touch on the Navigator Gene would be at best controversial, possibly heretical.
There are a few things which would make most transgenics difficult. For starters of course there is the Adeptus Mechanicus' usual problem. They lack knowledge and technology. The basis genetic modifications for praetorians and vat grown servitors have probably been done long ago, and it is likely that much of the technology that was used is lost.
The Afriel Strain, if I remember correctly, were just clones without modification, but my memery could have failed me in that regard.
Other than that, the Imperium really hates mutants and to most those who have been modified would be seen in the same way as a mutant, which means a shoot on sight policy on most worlds. Anyone who would make modifications on the genetic level would have to hide doing it very well. The human form is sacred after all.
Hmm. I'd point out that the Rogue Trader RPG does have the "False-Man" birthright option in the Into the Storm book:
"Your life is not your own. It is the product of an arcane science only barely understood by those that wield it, who seem to emulate the Emperor's mastery of genetics. Your form and your nature are manufactured, the result of tampering by those who seek to make men more able to perform certain tasks. You are a rarity in the Imperium and beyond it, a human being wrought by artificial means."
The effects on a character - choose two stats to get a small bonus, another to get penalised, become Ambidextrous, get your libido suppressed, gain accelerated healing. Gain a mess of insanity points or lose a fate point.
It doesn't actually have any effect on the character's social acceptance (unless, of course, you choose Fellowship as the penalised stat).
The fact that my Rogue Trader character (who is a False Woman) is less popular than entirely popular in the main body of the Imperium comes from other origin options: Void-born (-5 to Fellowship with non void-born) and Recidivist (gain Arbites as an Enemy). It's an appropriate combination, but it's not actually compulsory.
And while it's not actually GW fluff, I consider FFG material mostly canonical. It's usually more relevant to Inquisitor and isn't prone to sensationally hyping the armies/models involved.
I think that those false men would keep it a secret, it isn't visible after all. But people could react very badly to them if they would find out: "She's no proper human, filthy mutant scum"
I haven't had a chance to read the Rogue Trader RPG stuff yet. Is the "false man" that you mention in that similar or related to the "False Men of Nomen-Rhye" from Dark Heresy's Creatures Anathema?
@Dolnikan: Mostly, she does - it's not like she introduces herself as such to all, and her oddities are mostly looked upon as being of the void.
But one can hope that the GM does choose to exploit the opportunity for conflict if it does become known - it would spoil some of the fun if it didn't have its consequences.
@ Lucidum: No, "False man" here means a gene-engineered human, rather than AI machines.
Ah, well no matter.
As it stands, genetic engineering is sort of a double-edged sword in the Imperium. On the one hand you've got Space Marines, Genetor Techpriests, Polymorphine-using Callidus Assassins, Rejuvenat Treatments and abhumans (not necessarily genetically engineered, but definitely a departure from normal humans); but then on the other hand there's Fabius Bile's experiments and other stuff mentioned in background books.
One must remember that Inquisitor is a war in the shadows, most events/games take place without the larger world ever knowing about it. Some are even fought on non-imperial worlds or worlds with a sparse human population.
This thread seems to highlight the question as to how can a leader of a warband justify (and get away with) having an alien in their retinue?
The answer is often a matter of perspective: aliens fulfil useful roles by virtue of their natural physiology (much in the same way we use animals today to perform tasks far out of reach of our own natural abilities). Whilst few aliens will earn the trust, companionship or camaraderie of their human counterparts, a cunning employer will still see the benefits of hiring a xenos employee.
Also, the employer (be they an inquisitor, rogue trader etc) isn't likely to be a fool, and will take great care to conceal the fact they have a xenos on the payroll. So on worlds with a heavy Imperial presence, if the xenos isn't needed, they'll stay on the ship/in the safehouse/out of sight, if they are needed, then they may be disguised in some way (if able) in heavy cowls/hoods and loose robes, latex/synthskin masks, some technological concealment/cloaking, whatever takes your fancy where possible in the plot.
As an additional note, you must also consider the backdrop and mythos of the Imperium. Information is banned, average citizens are not made aware of things that don't concern them, and whilst the Imperial Creed teaches about the perils of contact with the xenos, most people have never seen one, and those few that have (retired guardsmen for example) will not have seen the full gamut of races that inhabit the universe. Human psychology, by and large, tend to dismiss things that they don't understand or can't process ("that can't be an alien, its just a ganger in a mask/a trick of the light/a deformed mutant"), likewise, few would be willing to report such sightings to the authorities for fear of being accused of contamination and executed.
Bizarrely, the Imperium is a realm of double standards too, as we know that no human is genetically perfect and everyone today has some form of mutation. Indeed, transhumanism is a keystone to the 40k mythos, with bionic augmentation and genetic improvements prevalent amongst a lot of mankind, abhumans and homo-superior members of an inquisitors warband are simply overlooked by the local authorities how don't want to make trouble against an agent of the Emperor who can call upon the death of worlds.
Genetic alterations do occur, some are sanctioned by the higher authorities, some aren't. Sanctioned ones tend to be out of necessity for the situation (such as the Gland War warriors, altered to perform on the hostile terrain), unsanctioned ones tend to be out of curiosity or the desire to create superior soldiers (Afriel Strain, Dark Founding astartes). Even those can successfully 'pass' as human, Gland War warriors look human and their alterations are primarily chemical, Afriel Strain experiments (despite being universally albino in appearance) also look human as we know albinoism occurs naturally (for a cogent paradigm I recommend watching James Cameron's Dark Angel).
As to xeno-hybridisation, considering Doctor Moreau isn't a possible scenario today, owing to our scientific knowledge that humans are too genetically different (and incompatible) with animals native to earth, the chances that a xenos race is genetically compatible to allow human hybridisation are infinitesimally slim. There are exceptions in the canon, such as genestealers, but please no half-eldar.
Natural hybridization is impossible. You could make a human with glow-in-the dark skin if you really felt like it. (And were willing to throw ethics out the window.)
That said, right there with you on the half-Eldar thing.
Bile's experiments on the Emperor's Children in the run up to the Heresy seem to mostly be attempts to copy alien or mutant mechanism in synthesised human-derived organs... I assume that would be transgenic? Perhaps?