So I got to thinking about weapons for a sort of final boss-ish character for a campaign, and as he will be a chaos cult leader, I was thinking about giving him a daemon weapon. Nothing too highbrow, just a daemonic beast bound into something. And then, when looking through my collection of various 40k books, I happened to look into the Chaos Space Marine codex, and saw the rules for a tzeenchian daemon weapon. After some thought I came up with a list of questions, which I resolved to put to more experienced conclavers, as I'm pretty much a newcomer to Inquisitor.
The list of questions is as follows:
1. Is is possible to bind a daemon into a ranged weapon?
2. If so, how powerful would the daemon be, and what sort of resources/timescale am I looking at for its completion?
3. How would the weapon work? For example, would it be a posessed gun where all shots have certain daemonic abilities, or would it be more along the lines of a Daemon bound into a single shell, used like special ammunition?
4. Realistically, what sort of abilities would the weapon have? Personally, I think that warpflame would be cool, and it's hard for me to imagine a gun that fires mind-stealing bullets, regardless of the daemon bound within.
5. Could a daemon be bound into any of the less standard weapons, such as a bow?
6. Would such a weapon be heavier than a normal weapon of its type, or be able to fire 'standard' ammunition at all?
Any imput at all would be appreciated, and feel free to suggest changes/improvements to any weapons, as well as combinations that would work well. At the moment, I'm thinking of a bolter with warpflame.
I think the best place to start is with this thread on Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287058
That answers, or at least speculates on, most of your questions.
I'll add the draft rules for Sorcerous projectiles from my Revised Armoury too, I suppose:
Quote- Sorcerous projectiles: An incredible heresy, these projectiles are inscribed with runes and sigils banned for millennia. Kept only barely in check by warded casings, these bullets can be devastating... sometimes to more than the enemy.
-- Every sorcerous bullet carried by a character inflicts a cumulative -5% penalty to both Wp & Nv, as they find their mental discipline drained by the proximity of such tainted creations.
-- Firing a sorcerous bullet is a Hazardous action. On a failure, roll a D10 on the following table:
---- 1: There is a sorcerous explosion, the weapon is destroyed, and the shooter is hit by the bullet instead! Roll hit location and resolve as normal.
---- 2-3: The runes and sigils were wrong. Randomise the effect caused by rolling a D10 and comparing to the numbers on the effect table below. Additionally, immediately lose 2D10 (roll once) from all mental stats.
---- 4-6: Click... the round fails to fire, perhaps because it didn't want to. The weapon fails to cycle.
---- 7-10: The sorcerous destiny of the bullet does not come to fruition. Resolve this shot as a normal bullet.
-- Sorcerous projectiles cause one (and ONLY one) of the following effects:
---- 1:Brain Leech, 2:Corrupter, 3:Daemonbane, 4:Deathlust, 5:Enfeeble, 6:Gnawing, 7:Magical Force, 8:Mind Stealer, 9:Warpflame (does 3D6 flame damage), 10:Vampyre
---- If at any point the rules refer to "the daemon's Wp value", use the Sg of the character who created the bullet.
---- Deathlust affects any character hit with it, not the shooter.
-- All special rules do not affect Pariahs.
I won't repeat the details for Hazardous actions (they're not the same as Risky actions) or failures to cycle here, they're all in the current version of the Revised Armoury (http://www.mediafire.com/?016z1s94rntn1pt).
Quote from: Draco Ferox on November 01, 2011, 10:58:29 PMAt the moment, I'm thinking of a bolter with warpflame.
Sounds like a bad idea. Bolters are quite nasty enough as it is without the extra damage!
Why would the character not simply use a bolter with Inferno shells (yes, less damaging, but still very nasty and considerably less likely to arouse suspicion).
Can't answer the rest but the first question is a resounding yes
in the 40k codex, a tzeentch daemon weapon (deathscreamer) traditionally appears as 'a blade of fire, or a twisted gun' and has a shooting attack equivalent to thousand sons inferno bolts, but random shots
Well, you can bind a demon into whatever you feel like, but probably with ranged weapons the results would as often interfere with the firing mechanism rather than help, hence the preference for swords.
Assuming the weapon still works, you're either looking at a weapon with the firing mechanism intact that happens to have certain demonic properties, and needs seperate ammo (possibly evil ammo), or one where the daemon has warped the initial firing mechanism to power it solely by the power of the warp - essentially a sorcerous attack rather than a gun.
Demons are great deus ex machinas - since they bend the rules of reality, you can justify anything with a powerful enough demon. A bolter with warpflame will tend to wipe out anything it hits though, which isn't great in most scenarios.
From my perspective...
Sort of...
There would - to my mind be no reason why you couldn't bind a daemon to a bolter (for example) but if you did then the bolter would function as a bolter in all respects bar the personality trapped within, it would require ammunition, rounds fired from it would be standard bolt rounds (the ammunition isn't possessed, only the weapon which fires them).
The Daemon within the weapon wants to eat souls - and that's just not viable if those souls are being sundered into mere eddies in the warp fifty yards away (it's bound in a physical shell and must therefore be restricted to physical rules).
A ranged weapon such as a harpoon could be viable of course but...
By the same token, a psycannon is just a boltgun to all intents and purposes - it does nothing special on its own... It's the ammunition, each round of which contains a tear of The Emperor (and The Emperor sheds a single tear whenever a Marine dies according to the old fluff, therefore one could say that each Psycannon round contains The Emperor's memory of an individual Space Marine) which has the significant effect.
And don't forget the Daemon's perspective.
Not many mortals are powerful, clever or wise enough to find a Daemon's true name on their own, much less assemble all of the various (often incredibly rare) materials required to bind a Daemon (even a Nurgling) into a weapon by their own power, there is generally some form of manipulation involved...
Daemonic ranged weapons are an idea that I've been batting around in my head for some time.
I was basically expanding upon the legends and myths of Sceleris Hive, and decided that a phantasmal gunslinger would be an interesting character archetype. Essentially, what I've made up so far is something similar to the original "the Mask" comics, in the fact that when someone picks up this gun, they cease to be their former selves, and instead become the phantom, as the daemon possesses them and alters their body to his will. The daemon tends to read the mind of his host, and drinks deep of their memories, finding all animosities and dislikes that the person might have, and then goes on a short killing spree against all that it's host hated. It might kill the host's business rivals, or perhaps a criminal who had a vandetta against the host. After each successive kill, the bond between the gun and it's host grows stronger, until finally, the host's soul is devoured and the body is cast asunder, leaving the gun behind for the next unlucky soul to discover. Legend says that the gun can only possess a host at night. However, since Gellar's World, where Sceleris Hive is located, orbits a binary black dwarf system, the planet is kept in a perpetual state of night, ensuring that the gun is forever active.
I was basically planning to give the gun a full set of physical and mental statistics and abilities which replace the stats of any host that the daemon-gun possesses., and had even made a start on some advanced daemonic possession rules. (For instance, if the host character has any stats over 50, the daemon's stat increases by D10 for every full 10 that the host's stat is over 50.) along with some 'new' daemonic properties for ranged weapons, such as 'warpfire ammo', in which the gun fires tiny slivers of searing warp energy rather than actual bullets, effectively giving it unlimited ammunition. However, hexagrammic/pentagrammic wards offered near immunity to this.
I also had other daemonic attributes such as 'fleshseeker' ammunition, which always counted as being aimed to one level against targets made of living flesh, but halved the BS stat against targets which were, for example, undead, robotic, or vapourous by nature.
Another attribute was 'warpmatter ammo', made from solid slivers of warp energy, to which the normal rules of the universe did not apply. The gun ignored range modifiers, since it would essentially keep going in a straight line, rather than have any sort of 'spread,' bullet drop or be affected by wind. However, since, like daemons, the ammunition could not exist for long outside of the warp, I intended to give the weapon a maximum range, or possibly have the weapon's damage statistic fade the further away the target was in much the same way as melta guns. (Since the bullet would basically be disintegrating into nothingness. By the time it reaches the target, there might only be a few molecules left.... Assuming that warp matter is molecular in nature.)
Although one of my favourite attributes was the self-loading gun attribute. The daemonic gun showed minor telekinetic abilities, and would fumble for ammunition in the user's pockets, and actually reload itself whilst being used by the character... Basically, I said that the gun couldn't be reloaded normally, but automatically reloaded D6 rounds from the character's pockets / ammo reserves each turn.
Basically, I just threw my creativity at it and saw what happened. It's an idea that I might ressurrect, but at the moment, I'm a bit swamped with academic work. XD
Thanks Marco, I hadn't seen that.
The rules for sorcerous bolts seem more like what I was looking for.
Probably going to lay the original idea to rest, and concentrate on how he got the sorcerous bolts in the first place.
And thanks to everyone else for all of the input so far, it's been very helpful in allowing me to lay down some basic mental guidelines for designing deamon weapons and not going overboard. I hadn't really thought about the abilities of a bolter when I designed it, but it just seemed to fit with the background. If I were a cult magos, I wouldn't go to all the trouble of binding a daemon only to stick it inside a lasgun.
Oooh, new idea just hit me.
Would a grenade that had an ability such as mind-stealer, but no damage, work?
What's in it for the Daemon?
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on November 03, 2011, 01:13:33 PM
What's in it for the Daemon?
Ranged daemon weapons are fine by me; indeed, I specifically allowed for them (and created example versions) in the Black Crusade rulebook, such as a Flamer possessed by a Flamer of Tzeentch. In regards to potency of the bound daemon, abilities, etc, there's no major need for them to be different to similar considerations with melee weapons.
As for what's in it for the daemon... nothing, potentially. But then, there's no reason to assume that a daemon is bound into a weapon willingly.
If the person who bound the Daemon into it is a sorcerer of considerable power and wisdom - sufficient power and wisdom to find all that is required, be it knowledge from the very depths of The Warp or rare ritual materials from all over the galaxy - then there isn't a reason to assume that the Daemon is at all willing - he can select the daemon he wishes to bind, learn its true name...etc. and the Daemon would have no say.
For Daemon Weapons acquirred as Gifts, with each Daemon effectively a part of the whole that is one of the Chaos gods, the Daemon is almost certainly willing (difficult not to be willing when Tzeentch decides what you're going to do).
For the majority of the rest however the sorcerer who creates them is unlikely to be powerful enough to complete the task, most likely they are a pawn in a long scheme (which probably happens to invlove the Daemon being in a certain place at a certain time).
A sorcerer used in this way is vanishingly unlikely to be told how to make a more powerful bolter... Instead information will likely be placed in his path which will allow him to make the most convenient housing for the Daemon - which includes the ability to feast on souls.
I would have to disagree with the Black Crusade rules in particular, the closest I could come to something of more value to the Chaos gods than to the wielder in that vein would be if it fired the Pink Fire of Tzeentch - simultaneously sacrificing victims and openning a breach in reality by which Horrors could indulge themselves.
The only way I would allow a ranged Daemon Weapon would involve the weapon binding itself to the wielder and, with every shot fired, enveloping more of him, first the hand, then the forearm, arm, shoulder... until finally only the head remains <munch> the weapon drops to the floor, pristine and unwarped, no trace remaining of the wielder.
The Daemon goes for the only soul it can reach...
Mechanically this would mean damage to the arm until it's destroyed, once destroyed it's invulnerable, replaced by the weapon, body...etc. along with perhaps D6 willpower loss (permanent) per shot until the Daemon takes control.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on November 15, 2011, 06:02:37 PM
If the person who bound the Daemon into it is a sorcerer of considerable power and wisdom - sufficient power and wisdom to find all that is required, be it knowledge from the very depths of The Warp or rare ritual materials from all over the galaxy - then there isn't a reason to assume that the Daemon is at all willing - he can select the daemon he wishes to bind, learn its true name...etc. and the Daemon would have no say.
I'm not new to this, remember. Amongst other things, the rules I created provide the means for characters to bind daemons into weapons themselves, with a half-page table of modifiers covering all manner of variables to make the otherwise nightmarishly difficult ritual easier (with simple melee weapons like swords and axes being easier to bind than more complex weapons, knowing the true name making the ritual much easier, and having weapons specially made for that purpose advantageous)... and that's after you've summoned an appropriate daemon and subjugated it to your will. Binding a daemon into a powerful ranged weapon is much more difficult and costly to achieve, certainly, but far from impossible. I don't like saying impossible when it comes to what you can do with Chaos.
QuoteFor Daemon Weapons acquirred as Gifts, with each Daemon effectively a part of the whole that is one of the Chaos gods, the Daemon is almost certainly willing (difficult not to be willing when Tzeentch decides what you're going to do).
There's a difference between willingness and compliance here.
As I see it, being a daemon weapon is nothing less than an indignity - to be bound into an inanimate object incapable of its own motion and action, enslaved to the will of a mortal who regards you as nothing more than a tool... it's insulting and infuriating. Even those daemons bound by the Gods (which may or may not actually happen; the precise details of direct interaction between the Chaos Gods and mortals are hazy at best, and it's as likely to be a matter dealt with by daemonic intermediaries) are likely ones who've failed or displeased their lord in some way, for whom being imprisoned in sword, axe or bolter is a punishment.
QuoteA sorcerer used in this way is vanishingly unlikely to be told how to make a more powerful bolter... Instead information will likely be placed in his path which will allow him to make the most convenient housing for the Daemon - which includes the ability to feast on souls.
Possibly. I don't see the notion of feasting on souls as being an essential component of the daemon weapon concept; I see them more as a source of power and supernatural might, bound against their will into inanimate objects. A Daemonic weapon, regardless of the type of weapon or type of daemon is deadlier because it has the unnatural might of a warp entity trapped within it by sorcerous techniques and ritual bindings that direct its might into something useable. If the wielder is weak-willed or incautious, he may find his own body overwhelmed by the daemon within his weapon, if it is sufficiently potent and the bindings sufficiently weak.
I also don't see why daemonic ranged weapons are frowned upon when daemonically-possessed vehicles (which are almost universally armed with ranged weapons themselves) are regarded as acceptable - something of a double standard, in my opinion.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on November 15, 2011, 07:06:33 PMPossibly. I don't see the notion of feasting on souls as being an essential component of the daemon weapon concept; I see them more as a source of power and supernatural might, bound against their will into inanimate objects. A Daemonic weapon, regardless of the type of weapon or type of daemon is deadlier because it has the unnatural might of a warp entity trapped within it by sorcerous techniques and ritual bindings that direct its might into something useable. If the wielder is weak-willed or incautious, he may find his own body overwhelmed by the daemon within his weapon, if it is sufficiently potent and the bindings sufficiently weak.
Perhaps I'm still to mired in the Elric influences which led to the original rules...
I see Daemon Weapons straining against their "master's" will and muscles - something you have to fight for control over. Something which, if you aren't watchful at all times, will twitch in your hand to cut a nearby creature because they thirst, regardless of whether you see them as an ally or not.
The willpower rules describe this struggle for control of course but they don't give a very good impression of just how significant that struggle is...
The soul drinking, that desparation to get to a living being... The satiation thereafter... All of them help give that impression and are therefore (from my perspective) intrinsic in the concept.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on November 15, 2011, 07:06:33 PMI also don't see why daemonic ranged weapons are frowned upon when daemonically-possessed vehicles (which are almost universally armed with ranged weapons themselves) are regarded as acceptable - something of a double standard, in my opinion.
Well I don't like Daemon vehicles either so... ;)
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on November 16, 2011, 01:33:34 PMI see Daemon Weapons straining against their "master's" will and muscles - something you have to fight for control over. Something which, if you aren't watchful at all times, will twitch in your hand to cut a nearby creature because they thirst, regardless of whether you see them as an ally or not.
The willpower rules describe this struggle for control of course but they don't give a very good impression of just how significant that struggle is...
The soul drinking, that desparation to get to a living being... The satiation thereafter... All of them help give that impression and are therefore (from my perspective) intrinsic in the concept.
And I think I see the difference - your viewpoint seems to make the distinction between daemon and weapon essentially irrelevant - the daemon is the sword, and the sword is the daemon, akin to a daemon possessing a living host of its own volition, cladding itself in the substance of reality but still essentially itself.
I take the approach that the weapon is a prison for the daemon, a container within which the daemon's essence is bound and fettered, to be employed at the discretion of another, while all but powerless to exert influence itself - more akin to the daemonhost concept of a daemon forcibly bound within a corporeal form at the bidding of others. The struggle is less one of overt conflict and more one of opportunism - the Daemon looks for a moment of weakness in its wielder to try and break free from the bonds of its steel prison. In that regard, the daemon's desires are largely irrelevant save for a desire to escape and enact painful vengeance on those who toyed with it (and/or anyone else in the vicinity).
Almost... Because even without the obvious opportunities the body of a Daemonhost is corrupted.
Perhaps the best analogue I can think of would be to compare the Daemonweapon to a really big, virtually untrainable Mastiff, you have it by the collar but that doesn't mean you're in control of it... Yes it represents a significant amount of power - but while you can direct it there is still a struggle to do so.
The Blade is a prison for the Daemon, it can't "do" anything on its own and more importantly it can't experience the world, but it's not a complete prison. Like the Mastiff's collar the Daemon still has its own will and drive and while it makes the creature easier to control you still need power of your own lest you be dragged across bog and fen...
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I really like the idea of the warp sliver shooting bolter and may have to steal it for the end boss (can you say Xanthite?) of a little campaign I'll be doing for my roleplay group in the coming year. Thanks guys :)
Quote from: Lazarus Caladine on December 28, 2011, 08:07:53 PM(can you say Xanthite?)
Nope, but I doubt many people can. It's not quite as bad as Pharaa'gueotla, but I've yet to hear anyone avoid pronouncing it with a Z sound instead of an X one.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on December 28, 2011, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Caladine on December 28, 2011, 08:07:53 PM(can you say Xanthite?)
Nope, but I doubt many people can. It's not quite as bad as Pharaa'gueotla, but I've yet to hear anyone avoid pronouncing it with a Z sound instead of an X one.
Then I would question your pronounciation of the word 'Xenos' :P. But seriously, however you say it, what Xanthite wouldn't want a warp bolter without needing ammo? Minus the slow absorbtion of the user into the weapon, it would be the perfect gun to kit out the armed forces of the Imperium. At least, that's the logic he'll use...and not reveal his diseased arm from under that half-cloak until the players really tick him off...
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on December 28, 2011, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Caladine on December 28, 2011, 08:07:53 PM(can you say Xanthite?)
Nope, but I doubt many people can. It's not quite as bad as Pharaa'gueotla, but I've yet to hear anyone avoid pronouncing it with a Z sound instead of an X one.
I've tried pronouncing the X as a soft 'ch' (essentially equating it with the Greek 'Chi/Xi'), and that seems to sound right. Doesn't sound right for Xenos, though, which just feels better if pronounced as Zenos...
Quote from: Lazarus Caladine on December 28, 2011, 09:36:19 PMThen I would question your pronounciation of the word 'Xenos'
Once again, my sense of humour goes right over people's heads. But to actually take up the subject...
Xenos is Zenos - that's a known Greek pronunciation (as in Xenon).
But Xanthite hasn't any genuine etymology, so as it always reminded me of the Chinese name Xuan (and I'm fairly sure Gothic is, at least in old canon, partly derived from Mandarin), I use Chinese pronunciation. However, I'm awful at that, so the closest I get is roughly "Shenth-ight".
Mind you, you're lucky you didn't say "Can you say Tzeentch?" - because frankly, I don't think I can transcribe that one...
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on December 29, 2011, 05:26:52 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Caladine on December 28, 2011, 09:36:19 PMThen I would question your pronounciation of the word 'Xenos'
Once again, my sense of humour goes right over people's heads. But to actually take up the subject...
Actually, that was my attempt at a humorous response :S (go go gadget asperger's!)
Well, xenos in greek is spelled with the xi and not the dzeta, which would give a pronunciation as in ex.
(Drags thread back to point)
Here are my stats for a warp shooting daemon bolter:
Type Range Max Range Mode Acc Dam Shots Rld Wt
Possessed Bolter Basic D 50yrds Single/Semi (2) +10 2D10+4 ∞ N/A 40
The possessed bolter never needs to be reloaded. On picking up the possessed bolter, it melds itself with the user and becomes an implanted weapon. Each time the possessed bolter is fired, the wielder loses D3 Wp. If the wielder loses a total of 10 Wp from firing the weapon, his arm (that the weapon implanted itself to) becomes the equivalent of an advanced bionic (S70, +2pts armour). If the wielder's WP drops below 60, he gains the following:
Daemonic – Invulnerable, Fearsome, Possession, +10WS, BS, S, T, I, +35Wp, and is considered to be affected by the Deathlust daemonweapon ability.
Obviously the final boss will have already "lost" his arm to the weapon, and should lose his sanity by shot number ten with average rolls. I could have it so more of the body gets altered to daemonic form before the final absorbtion, but I still want the boss to lose his marbles in the middle of combat. Any thoughts appreciated, and sorry to the OP for the total threadjack...
Xanthite does have a real world pronounciation...
At least according to a quick Google search it's an igneous gemstone which is pronounced according to the Latin...
While that may not be the source it's quite easy to see the parallels between something regular and beautiful coming from something as destructive as a volcano (the group of minerals Xanthite is part of is apparently called Vesuvianite incidentally).
In terms of the 40kverse, the philosophy is named after Inquisitor-Master Zaranchek Xanthus which is a: almost certainly Latinate and b: almost certainly alliterative ;)
Hmm.
*Insert research here*
From Ancient Greek. From Ξάνθος (Xanthos), the ancient Lycian city, leading to the prefix
Xanth- meaning yellow.
Interesting, but there is a slight problem with it though: It translates as "Followers of Yellow", so I reject your etymology and substitute my own.
Quotealmost certainly alliterative
Mine can still be more or less alliterative. Just use a soft Z. :P
Well, the followers of the yellow could lead to some interesting looking characters. Other than tat it could very well be derived from that meaning. If for instance someone called Blue would gain followers they could easily be called blueites or someting like that without any link to the colour. It also gives a nice, mundane meaning to the inquisitor's last name.