A step up from Medic - Surgeon / Field Surgeon
The character has studied and practised medicine.
This can be specialised to a species for an additional boost of +1 of the relevant die (d3, d6 or d10)
Good intentions (friends) Nv test to perform one of the following (1 action)
Stop bleeding in D3 locations
Reduce injury total by 1 D6+4
Reduce injury by one degree unless crippled.
Bad Intentions (Foe - has to be unconscience or incapacitated (tied up))
Nv test not required as who cares whether you make a mistake.
(1 action to perform one of the following)
collect trophy - Scalp opponent?
Paralise one limb for D10 turns
Increase bleeding in D3 locations
Remove organ?
Not sure about the bad intentions side of it.
Quotecollect trophy - Scalp opponent?
Don't see that any particular medical knowledge is needed for butchery. However, one action seems impossibly fast, even for a trained surgeon.
QuoteParalise one limb for D10 turns
He's tied up or unconscious. This doesn't seem like it would compound the inconvenience much.
QuoteIncrease bleeding in D3 locations
Again, tied up or unconscious. Injuring them is not a particular issue, as helpless characters are always hit, the location is attacker's choice and it does an automatic critical.
QuoteRemove organ?
Again, helpless. Also, much more time consuming than a single action if you're trying to remove organs without killing the person (not that there's a huge choice of things to remove). And if you're not trying to avoid killing them, it doesn't need special rules beyond normal damage.
Maybe as something to bring up in a campaign as a form of torture, but not really an on-table thing.
I agree with Marco on this one; the 'Dark side of surgery' powers strike me as a bit unnecessary and excessive. Beyond all the perfectly legitimate gameplay concerns Marco raises, I'd also like to add some fluff worries.
In Inquisitor, we tend to say that it's no one's choice but the character's player as to whether the character dies or not, but things like organ removal and scalping... well, even in the 40k verse, it seems a bit difficult to believe a character walking around with the same model representing them, as their scalp hangs from another character's belt. Similarly, I realise we're talking about a game where characters are sometimes even shot in the head at point blank with a bolt gun (example relevant; it happened to Zophar at The Succession), but we can often explain it away by saying 'it looked a lot worse than it was' or 'the internal damage wasn't too bad'. When we actually say, in a game, 'his heart has just been cut out and drop kicked off the table', it's kind of hard to say 'it's not as bad as it looks!' (the Holy Grail Black Knight comes to mind...).
I mean, I realise that technically it -can- be justified (one of my characters once literally decapitated one of Kaled's admech warband, and he wrote a little fluff piece about how they used their tech to keep the brain alive and reattach the head), in the same way you technically -could- implement it into the rules, but as with Marco's complaint about its rules consequence, what's the point? It seems a bit unneccessary to me.
If my character was out of action, and then my opponent started to detail how he's scalping him, and taking his heart etc.. I'd just be a bit pissed off. It's doesn't really add anything to the game (-the character is already OOA, he won't be causing my opponent any more trouble), and it makes the fluff writing on my behalf just that little bit less believable.
Still, that's just my opinion, and in no way do i want to present it as being a single, authoritative viewpoint, but to me, it just seems a level of control over the opponent's character which crosses a certain line. Still, if you have your heart set on it, and your opponents consent to it, then there's nothing to stop you going for it.
Quote from: Brother_Brimstone on November 18, 2011, 11:38:49 PMIn Inquisitor, we tend to say that it's no one's choice but the character's player as to whether the character dies or not
Which was mostly why at the end of the Autumn Conclave I had the satellite death laser do the whole "carving menacingly towards the target and conveniently leaving enough time to escape" thing. Given that it was the single most powerful weapon short of Exterminatus I can recall ever having had in a game of Inquisitor, it might have been a bit tricky for anyone to explain how they'd survived a direct hit*!
But yes, I think I agree here. This is the kind of thing that really needs the buy-in of the other player, at least if you're not planning on making it a throw-away non-canon game.
*It should probably worry me that I have two models which actually could.
Yeah i see.
1)Any thoughts on having a step up from Medic?
2) For the purposes a character that is potentially an eldar of the dark persusion,
(I had no intention of killing other peoples charcaters) any thoughts on a way that the skill could be used for "evil"
And now an important point about your last post Tyrant:
In this war of shadows, how do you define 'evil'?
But other than that, for a step-up from a medic, I'd give him a better bonus when attempting to heal characters.
In terms of actual using medical knowledge for harm rather than good, it would only really be of use in campaigns, where the character could use his skills to impose a negative modifier to the willpower of the 'interviewee' during an interrogation.
A more interesting idea would be the medic's reaction if he was ordered to save a captured enemy from death in order that they might be taken alive, especially if he has some sort of enmity for the dying character, due to fluff or events earlier in the campaign.
Also, if the character has an all-consuming need to inflict pain, such as a Dark Eldar, then it might be a part of their rules that the character might, if deprived of pain for long enough, willing to turn on their own...
Quote from: Draco Ferox on November 19, 2011, 10:53:38 PM
And now an important point about your last post Tyrant:
In this war of shadows, how do you define 'evil'?
Well I'd like to think the person with the skill (not DE) having trained in medicine would see it as their duty to save any life regardless of species etc. Thus making them probably one of the few true good guys, not just ones that believed they were good.
But other than that, for a step-up from a medic, I'd give him a better bonus when attempting to heal characters.
In terms of actual using medical knowledge for harm rather than good, it would only really be of use in campaigns, where the character could use his skills to impose a negative modifier to the willpower of the 'interviewee' during an interrogation.
A more interesting idea would be the medic's reaction if he was ordered to save a captured enemy from death in order that they might be taken alive, especially if he has some sort of enmity for the dying character, due to fluff or events earlier in the campaign.
Also, if the character has an all-consuming need to inflict pain, such as a Dark Eldar, then it might be a part of their rules that the character might, if deprived of pain for long enough, willing to turn on their own...
Im actually thinking having written the yellow bit that in exchange for better healing he must attend to the wounds of the enermy unless his SG makes him realise that the unconscience Daemon would tear his head off regardless.
Quote from: Tyrant on November 20, 2011, 07:19:20 PMWell I'd like to think the person with the skill (not DE) having trained in medicine would see it as their duty to save any life regardless of species etc. Thus making them probably one of the few true good guys, not just ones that believed they were good.
Sounds like a Lawful Stupid version of the Hippocratic oath.
The Grim Dark universe is not a pleasant place, and any "good guys" as such will usually get cured of their morals either getting killed by said gribbly nasty or getting executed for heresy.
Save the life of an Eldar? Heresy. Blam.
Save the life of a Tyranid? Om nom nom nom.
Save the life of a Traitor? Extra Heresy. Double Blam.
For a start...
Scalping involves making a full circular cut, not usually a clean one as the subject's hair tends to ubstruct the knife edge... It's not something which requires particular skill - and due to the skull being the next thing in line it's not something one can get too wrong either...
Not that there's a reason scalps were the prefered method of counting the number of Native Americans a European killed (Yes, scalping was introduced to America by the Europeans and only later adopted by the Native Americans themselves).
To the point of the question.
Medical training isn't particularly going to help - in most instances a field Medic is actually going to be better at dealing with battlefield injuries because that's what he does.
Surgery is generally carried out behind the lines and while it might seem fast and dirty it's still a prolongued event not suited to the middle of a game of Inquisitor.
Personally I would keep medical training out of the dice rolls and in the role-playing side, tyranid autopsies in the quiet between storylines...etc.
QuoteWell I'd like to think the person with the skill (not DE) having trained in medicine would see it as their duty to save any life regardless of species etc. Thus making them probably one of the few true good guys, not just ones that believed they were good.
Not in 40k...
Bear in mind that what you're describing is akin to a doctor trying to treat a bug in Starship Troopers... only wierder.
I would suspect that any oath sworn by medical practitioners in the 40k 'verse doesn't even include a need to treat abhumans, let alone Xenos.
I think in ravenor (or some other series), there is a doc who wants to treat the fallen, heretic of puritain (can't recall name)
Bing!, it was rorden in gaunts ghosts not wishing to leave rival guard (bluebloods) to die during an imperial retreat. (probably was a similar character in ravenor, but can't recall name)
Quote from: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on November 21, 2011, 09:01:46 PM
I think in ravenor (or some other series), there is a doc who wants to treat the fallen, heretic of puritain (can't recall name)
Bing!, it was rorden in gaunts ghosts not wishing to leave rival guard (bluebloods) to die during an imperial retreat. (probably was a similar character in ravenor, but can't recall name)
Abandoned member of characteristically unpleasant allied regiment =/= hateful murderous worshipper of reasonless hateful thirsting gods ... or Aliens.
I'm pretty certain 40k is the perfect place for a Hypocritic oath, rather than a Hippocratic one ;D
Refusing to abandon your own wounded is a distinct morale from feeling obliged to treat your enemies, espescially when those enemies are the sort of chaos worshipers and inimically hostile aliens common on the inquisitor table, and even that lesser idealism feels out of place in the 40k setting, where planets can be expendable.
Regarding the dark eldar character, it's hard to think of what he could do to an enemy that a trained fighter couldn't do pretty much as well, other than killing them a lot slower and more painfully. However, he might be inclined to focus his treatment of an injured 'friend' more on getting them up and useful, caring very little whether it ends up hurting them further in the long term.
I have dropped this now.
I agree that in 40K there isn't a place for such an ability that "Medic" doesn't cover already.
Its a nice idea but in practice it doesn't translate.
Thanks for the comments.
Nathan.
I Disagree there are officio Medicae staff highly trained physicians who perhaps are more vital in keeping your team alive, and why not employ a surgeon as a torturer surely someone with a working knowledge of anatomy would be perfect in such a role.
Master Chirugeon ( A Master Chirugeon like Tobias can add 25% to a toughness test for recovery rolls and can also heal an extra injury level to a total of 3 )
that is what i came up with also this rare piece of surgical equipment usually employed as a Bionic
Apothecarium ( anyone tobias is treating can recover D3+2 from there Injury total instead of the Normal D3 ), the apothecarium includes a Digital Scalpel and a Power field generator which can be modulated to work as a Cardio Shock Unit (10% chance of Reviving a Dead Character) or as a Shock Gauntlet it takes an action to switch between modes
Name Reach Damage Parry Penalty Special
Shock Gauntlet 0 Unarmed +4 -30% Shocking
Highly trained physicians do many things which a medic can't do it's true - but they invariably don't do so in the midst of a game. In the hubbub and chaos of a firefight the medic and the highly trained physic do exactly the same thing - basic triage.
As I suggested above there's actually a good chance that the field medic will do better through dint of experience in the given situation.
With regards to other applications...
If you're the sort of person who can employ people then surely the best person to hire to be your torturer would be... A torturer?
Knowing where organs are is only of marginal use to that career after all, much more important are understandings such as where mutilation becomes counter-productive.
And after all, the Imperium can't have you giving one person sixteen different jobs, it's bad for the economy ;)
Your Right a medic and a doctor do both just triage in battlefield conditions, but a medic has a rather limited degree of training in comparison to a Doctor. If you have a heart attack fine the guy who has attended a first aid class six years ago can save your life, I am left however in no doubt as to how much more effective a trained doctor might be in such a situation. Your comment about experience, well surely that comes down to the characters background a Former Officeo medicae Surgeon turned Inquisitorial Interegator Might have racked up just as much experience as Corporal No name from the 101st cadian medical Battalion in treating these types of wounds. When Experience no longer becomes a factor (which it isnt because we are discussing an ability its assumed that the character with the ability has the story background to justify it otherwise it moves away from how can this be represented in game to is it even appropriate for such and such to have this ability) Now assuming the corporal no name and the interegator have the same experience when treating injuries of this type, the interegators overall medical knowledge and experience outstrips corporal no names and would make him the better quality healer
I Beg to differ, an Inquisitor can be many things and has many abilities, my case in point is the Officio Medicae turned Interegator in this instance you have a educated man someone able to use intelect to solve mysteries (certainly to puzzle together a potential illlness and formulate a treatment plan) His Intelect and puzzle solving led him into a mystery and as he continued to explore he became wrapped up in the work of a local inquisitor, before long the man was that inquisitors Interegator So not only is he now a Surgeon his also an Investigator, the Investigation leads right back to the planetary Governor, but it could potentially be bigger this is something they need to handle carefully the interegator sneaks into the governors quaters Drugs and Kidnaps him now not only is he a surgeon but he is an investigator, spy and kidnapper, i could go on about how now the inquisitor orders the interegator to adminsiter a multitude of truth serums or drugs that burn violently through his system untill he cracks revealing all in hope of a antidote but i feel my point is already been made, Characters can be multi faceted inquisitor is not a game about 1 dimensional characters why cant the the sick officio medicae surgeon have a deep interest in torture maybe he practices his secret art in the mutant ghettos if you can justify it via background your characters can be whatever you want them to be a torturer is a torturer is a transexual ballet dancer if thats what you want and u can justify it to others and yourself
In terms of Triage (and therefore in terms suited to most games' timeframes) there will be very little difference between an experienced field medic and a qualified physic with experience in battlefield triage, both will assess the injury they're faced with, categorise it as synskin, field dressing & combatant, field dressing & non-combatant or critical (or a similar scale) and treat it accordingly.
The cases where the physic will be able to do more than the medic will be where surgery or longt term care is required, where the object of the exercise is no longer to get the casualty immediately back to combat readiness or stable enough to get clear and that happens off the table.
A trained physic as a character is all well and good and if he's treating casualties between games then it's reasonable to assume that they will recover more rapidly and more fully... but it's not something which requires differenciation in rules on the tabletop. The differenciation is between the theorist (the brilliant surgeon who's never seen a warzone and doesn't have the Medic ability) and the experienced or practically trained (the Corpsman, Medic, trained physic, ganger with a bit of nouse...etc who does).
Quote from: Stormgrad on November 22, 2011, 02:11:24 PMHis Intellect and puzzle solving led him into a mystery and as he continued to explore he became wrapped up in the work of a local inquisitor, before long the man was that Inquisitor's Interrogator
While I agree that characters can be (and often should be, as Inquisitors do look for versatile individuals) multifaceted, this is not the best example.
A surgeon becoming a "field" Interrogator, while possible, is a fairly unlikely sequence of events. His ability to solve a medical mystery is unlikely to translate well into that style of Inquisitorial investigation. His reasoning skills are based on former experience and learning that are almost irrelevant to the situation, and would lag behind the other candidates with fields of expertise that applied more practically.
Maybe one could rise to heights as a "desk" Inquisitor in the Ordos Xenos, based on learning ways to combat various Xenos races with chemical or biological agents, but I can't easily see a surgeon translating into a sneaky infiltrator.
Also, I have to agree with Heidfeld. Medic vs. Physician is not going to make a big difference on the table.
Take the 7th July bombings, specifically the bus in Tavistock Square. Right outside the headquarters of the BMA, and what did they do? Pretty much exactly what paramedics would have done in the same circumstances - try to stabilise the victims until they can be transported to proper care.
Also, while a surgeon may have greater medical knowledge, they're seldom found closer to a battlefield than a field hospital, so they probably wouldn't have racked up as much practical experience.
Actually, on that note, you'd be unlikely to take a surgeon on field work (there's not a whole amount they could do that a medic couldn't, given that they won't have their tools or environment - and a Imperial Guard medic is both more expendable and more likely to not get expended...). Seems like surgeons would be background members of a warband for the most part.
So - plausible, but not exactly probable.