The Conclave

Now before I get bushwhacked over using space marines here me out. My friends and I all are Space Marine fanatics. I want to get them interested in Inquisitor and I know they will jump at the chance to make some 54mm marines. They aren't really much for rp's so Deathwatch is off the list. My plan was that each player would control 1 marine with a couple of parameters.

First if you want to have a terminator, go ahead, but your model is going to have to look like a terminator and they will still have negatives(DM 2 article is just the start). Second, if you use a space marine, why are they alone without support? Finally, if you are including a librarian or similar, I want a full rundown on selection process, place within the chapter, tests and trials, the chapter's view on these psykers, what level of Librarian is he? and why would a librarian be alone(as I believe this will be even harder to explain)?

Now campaign details:
I'll be using the Architect of Hate rules to represent hordes of minions and the like.
It will take place on a world that is in the start of a zombie plague infestation.
The members will be facing zombies, cultists, survivors, each other(although alliances can be made, if the chapters involved don't have drastically conflicting views), inquisitors, daemons and mutants.
The campaign will take place over 4 in game months, ammo conservation will be key. IE any ammo used will be deducted from the starting total and you cannot regain more ammo, unless we are talking about weapons with charge packs(Plasma tech? Melta tech?(not really sure about if that is how the equipment works))
Any damage to the marines armour will be maintained over multiple games, although techmarines will be able to maintain there tech better(thoughts?)
For the campaign I will assume the Space Marine backpacks can recharge if given enough time)
A player may choose to play is a Chaos Space Marine, Loyalist Space Marine, Renegade Space Marine or a normal inquisitor warband of up to 4 models(within reason, I mean like following Conclave Standard, they may be a little more powerful than normal but not stupidly powerful, these warbands will have better access to equipment and armour, so they can restock ammo if it is common etc)

Oh and one last thing, if this does go ahead, I will get everyone to post their characters/ warbands, fluff and models on here.

I would like to know everyones opinions and thoughts on this.
Thanks in advance.
Prasmatis

This could be interesting. How many players do you think there will be?

Multiple space marines will destroy almost all opposition, especially that from zombies and cultists. You will need massive numbers of models to even dent them.

I don't really know, somewhere between 3 and 8, although not everyone will be present at each meet, with the minions, Im going to take the approach of counters for all minions that are not in direct line of sight of players and the models will be recycled once they die and you have to remember that the marines will start killing each other unless both parties accept a truce and the rest of the players present believe that the characters ideals don't differ too greatly for an acceptable alliance, with this in mind I will keep a roster of chapters and their backgrounds but the other players will not know what the others are planning until they start building models, which will mean that everything is locked in.

I will also be playing but as my character will be a renegade, I'm not going to have many friends... may have some but not many.

Oh and wow that was fast Dolnikan.

If you want Space Marines, just play Deathwatch -- it's a better-written and more balanced system in which Space Marines can be Space Marines without needing horrific numbers of physical models to act as their opposition.

Melta Guns were originally also known as fusion guns. The implied method of operation was that a fusion reaction was made to occur inside the weapon and the blast of (incredibly) high energy particles and hot gas was directed towards the target.

With that in mind I would suggest that you would need a charge pack to run the weapon's systems, the bit which forces the fusion reaction...etc
I would also suggest that, as fusing atmosphere would be effectively impossible in many theatres the weapon would also require a gas charge, probably of heavy hydrogen, to provide it with stuff to fuse.

I would suggest something like 50 shots from a charge pack (150 from the backpack charge pack associated with a Multi-Melta) and 6-10 shots from the gas charge (I'd probably also make them specific to weapons, the gas charge from a Multi-Melta cannot be used in a Meltagun...etc).

The Gas charge would be under intense pressure but in a highly resilient cylinder, eliminating the need to worry about volatility but preventing the use of one gas charge to fill another.


For Plasma you would need a high energy charge pack to provide the energy both to create and contain the plasma but you would also need a plasma medium, a volatile liquid or gas I would suggest.
I'd probably reverse the proportions on them (the gas/liquid charge being good for 50+ shots, the charge pack only for a small number).

Whether you wish to make them compatible (the same gas charge working for either weapon) depends on your needs but be aware that it might lead to a guy with a melta and a guy with a plasma allied, the melta using most of each gas charge but still leaving the guy with the plasma plenty of shots in what, for the melta, is all but empty.

ah ok, Ill just give them a set number of reloads like the bolt weapons, that can run out like the rest, I was just thinking that plasma gun charge packs may function like advance las charge packs, well with that in mind, unless people are really careful with ammo or are a techmarine(with some equipment) then it will probably end in huge brawls xD.

I would also try to fit something in about power sources for chain and power weapons. Otherwise those will become overly dominant when the ranged weapons are all out.

Quote from: Prasmatis on January 27, 2012, 01:56:18 PMI was just thinking that plasma gun charge packs may function like advance las charge packs

The fact they recharge in the LRB's version is not very representative. That's really more a case of time taken to dump excess heat than a "recharge". (And, in practice, as a hydrogen flask lasts about 10 shots, a player couldn't really get through one in an average Inquisitor game, so the difference is fairly moot outside of a campaign setting.)

I wrote an alternate version for the Revised Armoury that might suit your purposes better.

Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld With that in mind I would suggest that you would need a charge pack to run the weapon's systems, the bit which forces the fusion reaction...etc

Nah. I think of it like gas blowback, using some of the excess heat to recharge an integral power cell and eliminate the need for a separate power source.

You might find more primitive versions that did need a separate power source, but I generally discourage this kind of thing as it means keeping track of more than one ammo supply for no real reason. Their ammo supply is basically defined by the weakest link, so if they've not got enough power cells for fuel cells or vice versa, then it's pretty  redundant to say "well, they have this much extra fuel they can't use".

I do have one weapon in my collection that does have such rules, but the design (which people seem to like) so obviously has both a power pack and a magazine that it would have raised questions if I hadn't.

Quote from: PrasmatisFor the campaign I will assume the Space Marine backpacks can recharge if given enough time)

They've got a nuclear cell with a lifetime of decades. They're not about to run out of juice in a hurry.

Quote from: Dolnikan on January 27, 2012, 03:15:37 PMI would also try to fit something in about power sources for chain and power weapons. Otherwise those will become overly dominant when the ranged weapons are all out.

Canonically, they're both electric (despite the video games doing a two stroke sound, which sounds cooler), and given the Imperium actually manages to maintain some kind of standardisation (although Emperor alone knows how) over power connections, I can't imagine there's any difficulty in recharging them.

Alternatively, even if you do consider they need combustible fuel, that won't have any real supply shortage either.

I've always been interested to see how something like this would suss out. Specific campaigns that involve specialized modeling projects. Having a bunch of huge power-armored beasts tearing through hoards of mutants, zombies and cultists while battling each other sounds like a lot of fun. It requires some shifting in the way we generally view Inquisitor but it could be lots of fun. I almost picture it working more like one of those specialized dreadnaught battle games with a little more detail and twists.

Also, a good "semi-cheap" way to utilize zombies and spice things up would be to have a strain more akin to the xeno-morphs from Dead Space. You could buy a box of Vargheists and Chaos Spawn. Easy to convert (all plastic) with plenty of variation and you'll have 5 (at least) beasties that look like bulked up undead with formidable claws that could actually cause some damage to an SM. Of course they wouldn't be nearly as resilient as the SMs but they couldn't be ignored (get bogged down by 2 or 3 an you're in for it). Throw a couple random chaos sorcerers and some cultists who broke into an arbites precinct with come heavier weapons and you have some challenges to add some more spice beyond just being meat for the meat grinder (plus some unique modeling opportunities).

Anyway, I'm very interested to see how this goes. I've been toying with the idea of a daemon-world campaign or commorragh based campaign which would involve a lot of the same in terms of in depth modeling projects that could air on the side of power gaming if not played correctly.

First off, weapon wise, Ill be giving bonuses to people with good conversions, because 6 stock Artemis models painted differently would just be boring. Im thinking with the ammo, that I might do a mission where the marines raid a mechanicus facility for ammunition/ repairs etc.

The zombies are of a chaotic nature, related to a unknown source. The zombies will be terrible, just meat shields. The real damage will come from each other, survivors, the main antagonist and daemons that will be involved as the story unfolds, I can't really say anything on here as my players may read it and that would ruin the surprise...

I was thinking, should I limit the maximum amount of characters per alliance. As it would be no fun if all 6 (hypothetically, still in planning stages so I don't know how many characters will be involved) were all allied together, spoil the marine vs marine aspect. I think I will allow players to share ammunition with their allies.

To tell you the truth, Im not very concerned about power level, as they will be fighting each other and other powerful beasties with the zombies just being an expletive to put down with mobs, if a marine was stupid enough to be surrounded by like 14, without assistance or an exit strategy is going to be put down, although it will probably only be injured not killed.

Injuries will continue over multiple games and if the marine was to die, he will stay dead, unless I get a stoke of inspiration for a reason for him to survive or there is an apothecary running around or..........

All thoughts appreciated.
Cheers
Prasmatis

I still find it absolutely hilarious that you're overlooking a game system tailor-made for the use of Space Marine characters. Inquisitor wasn't designed for what you're planning.

The reason I am not going for Death Watch is twofold, firstly my friends still want to play a miniatures game not an rpg, they like the artemis model and will convert it and secondly although they are open to rpg elements they are not up for a full rpg, it is not that sort of group, Im talking ages between 12 and 26 with a number of people that have played nothing but 40k, it is a big enough jump from something like 40k to =I= let alone to a pen and paper rpg.

And the most important reason of all is..... I want to introduce the group to inquisitor, hoping that after the campaign we can move on to more normal games and warbands.

It's better to introduce them to Inquisitor with a game that's more representative of Inquisitor as a game system. Otherwise (and especially with your younger players), you'll end up creating the misconception that the game is a very high-powered affair, when in reality it isn't.

Quote from: Prasmatis on January 28, 2012, 12:28:26 PMThe reason I am not going for Death Watch is twofold, firstly my friends still want to play a miniatures game not an rpg

There's no reason that Deathwatch cannot be played as a miniatures game. In fact, it's very helpful to have the visual reference rather than having to try describe a situation in depth enough to play but succinctly enough to keep your players focus. (As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.)

I have to be honest, I do agree with Koval somewhat. While I would love to see more people getting involved in Inquisitor, Space Marines do not balance well in the game and are not a good introduction. What will likely happen is that the game will go off kilter pretty fast as these issues come up and start to discourage the players.

In my mind, Marines are primarily a GMing tool - part of the scenario, not part of the characters. In recent years, I have used a Marine as a player on very rare occasions, but it's not held my interest hugely. Psycho-indoctrinated killers don't leave a whole lot of room for characterisation.

Quoteit is a big enough jump from something like 40k to =I= let alone to a pen and paper rpg.

I'd say it's a bigger jump to Inq, in all honesty.

RPGs are a fairly mainstream concept that people usually have a decent mental handle on before they start. But Inquisitor is not a mainstream concept. While it's often described (including by me) as "half RPG, half skirmish", describing it in in such terms makes it sound more routine than it is.

In regards to both Marco and Koval's comments I have to say that while I agree with many parts of what you are both saying I don't like pigeon holding Inquisitor into such a narrow box. Yes, it is a challenge to balance an Inquisitor game with Space Marines in it but that responsibility can fall largely on the GM.

What other game system allows you to build up character and RP CSMs and Daemons while maintaining the tabletop aspect of 40K? Inquisitor is a game where a skilled GM and ease players into the more narrative elements by offering rewards in between games for characterful play and in game objectives that focus on character rather than assault and destroy.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 28, 2012, 01:07:39 PM
RPGs are a fairly mainstream concept that people usually have a decent mental handle on before they start. But Inquisitor is not a mainstream concept. While it's often described (including by me) as "half RPG, half skirmish", describing it in in such terms makes it sound more routine than it is.

While RPGs are a fairly mainstream concept I have found (at least among my gaming groups) that just because someone is a fanatic about Axis and Allies they would still laugh at the idea of playing D&D. It's a pretty big spectrum out there and when I first started playing Inquisitor it was a feat for me to get my friends to put down their Land Raiders and pick up a 54mm model. Inquisitor gives you a format that feels familiar to lots of 40K players and can allow a GM to introduce players with zero advanced knowledge on the rules to a test game in the blink of an eye. It may be RP heavy but it feels like a skirmish wargame and I think that's a good way to get people involved even if you have to ease them into the more RP elements of it.

I would contend that Inquisitor is under utilized as a vehicle to explore facets of the Imperium beyond the shadowy organization of the Inquisition. The myriad pieces of fan-generated rules do a wonderful job exploring these possibilities. I'm not saying the transition would be seamless but it's definitely worth exploring.

From that frame Prasmatis I would like to know if you've found a cheap way to mass-produce zombies (if you're having 14 in one scenario that's quite a lot of models). I would still encourage you to find a system that allows for more powerful "zombies" to the point where it only takes 3 or so to really bog down a marine and put them in trouble (even with the Architect of Hate rules you will find some difficulty managing all the dice rolling).

What is more, with the number of actions-per-turn the marines get they may find themselves able to do little more than butcher zombies or rush through them. If that's your intent and people seem to like it then great, though I imagine it would be a little more fulfilling to have stronger creatures that (while not a huge threat alone) can bog you down if you aren't careful.

I think an ammo conservation system is great and you should spend some time reading through the INQ archives to assemble a good summary of Marine abilities and also think about what new rules may be applicable or what actions character may look to take in the face of the opposition you are throwing at them.

I would also highly suggest working behind the scenes so that your players produce characters that by-nature would not all want to cooperate. Putting arbitrary constraints on things such as in-game alliances discourages good role playing (in my opinion) and it seems like that is one of your largest goals in moving people from 40K to Inquisitor.

Whatever you end up doing I applaud your willingness to experiment with the system and look forward to how it shakes out. I would very much suggest taking a long look at the constructive criticism that Koval and Marco are putting out in terms of trying to preempt problems that may arise. It's a risky venture you're proposing and you should take steps to anticipate where the campaign could go off the chain rather than hoping for the best.

Quote from: Alyster Wick on January 28, 2012, 07:00:28 PMD&D

I deliberately didn't bring D&D up because a lot of people have a view point on it that's really not so much RPing as it is "Players and GM try and kill each other". It has the innate associations (your mileage will vary on how unfairly) with the Dungeon Crawl - which, in my opinion, is basically the antithesis of actual roleplaying, requiring little more characterisation than "I don't like talking about my dark/mysterious/ominous (delete as applicable) past and think that wielding a massive sword somehow makes up for that".

Not that I'm saying there's no place for that kind of thing, but I think calling it roleplaying is a bit optimistic.

QuoteI deliberately didn't bring D&D up because a lot of people have a view point on it that's really not so much RPing as it is "Players and GM try and kill each other".

Yeah, D&D shouldn't be found in the same ballpark as Inquisitor, unless you have a very twisted individual, even with good roleplay, it's just players vs DM, I've played very few games of D&D which haven't consisted of; get to the treasure (or hostage or whatever), kill all the bad guys, dodge the booby traps, whereas Inquisitor has the potential to be so much more

I think that Inquisitor can be used for a game such as this, the basic framework of the rules does support it even thoguh they tend to not work as well as with lower power levels. I myself don;t really like Space Marines but it is everybody's personal freedom to play the game like this if they want to and all the players that are involved agree.

I would however try to make clear that the game is not very representative of how Inquisitor is commonly played.

About D&D, I've played that game with two different groups, with the first, it indeed turned into a dungeon crawl and was quite boring, but with the second it was enterely roleplay centered, although of course, the more a game becomes about roleplaying, the less rules are needed and used.

Well, since I was the one who originally brought up D&D I will say that yes, it can be played simply as a dungeon crawler with little regard for character or it can be heavily RPed. The reason I bring it up as relevant to the conversation is that the same is true of Inquisitor. It provides a game mechanic that can be used simply to make an incredibly detailed skirmish game but it can be so much more if people put the time and effort into it.

Zeroing back in on the current conversation I would then say that the mechanics support the use of the game in the manner Prasmatis is describing (it could be argued that it isn't optimized for Marine on Marine combat but that's somewhat debatable and up to the GM to control well).

On the character front that goes up to the players (with some guidance from the GM). I think many Black Library books prove that Marines are in fact dynamic characters if a little more action-star oriented then your standard Inquisitors. Those who say playing psycho-indoctrinated super-soldiers is no fun and they prefer to play more realistic or relatable characters are making an argument that (in my opinion) holds little weight. After all, most of us who post on the Conclave RP characters with an inherent connection to an unfathomable void that routinely stare darkness in the face (psychers), those who have never set foot upon a real planet and have eaten only recycled food for their entire existence (void born) or who have ordered entire planets put to death with zero regrets (our Inquisitors) just to name a few (heck, some characters could have all three).

My point is that while I'll acknowledge that SMs lead a rather different life than any of us so do just about all the characters in the 40K universe. It's a bit of a leap to RP in any completely fantastical universe. I'll just say again that I think the task is difficult but totally doable and I'm interested in seeing the results to help inform how to effectively run a more non-traditional (by Conclave standards) campaign.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 27, 2012, 04:05:31 PM
Nah. I think of it like gas blowback, using some of the excess heat to recharge an integral power cell and eliminate the need for a separate power source.

You might find more primitive versions that did need a separate power source, but I generally discourage this kind of thing as it means keeping track of more than one ammo supply for no real reason. Their ammo supply is basically defined by the weakest link, so if they've not got enough power cells for fuel cells or vice versa, then it's pretty  redundant to say "well, they have this much extra fuel they can't use".

It can be redundant, but it can also provide the characters with things of value - the ability to trade a little extra, valuable, ammo for small considerations (like doing your mission first) leads to much more bargaining, possibly more careful use of scarce resources (one does not wish to waste The Emperor's ammunition) - potentially it could add a lot to the game.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 27, 2012, 04:05:31 PM
Canonically, they're both electric (despite the video games doing a two stroke sound, which sounds cooler), and given the Imperium actually manages to maintain some kind of standardisation (although Emperor alone knows how) over power connections, I can't imagine there's any difficulty in recharging them.

IIRC they're driven by a power field aren't they? One might suggest that the "two-stroke" sound is there to invoke the chainsaw but you could as easily suggest that its the sound of the teeth breaching the power field edge  ;)

The energy usage on a Chainsword is going to be very low, low enough that you're probably looking at power supply lifetimes which, for all intents and purposes, are effectively infinite.

Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on January 30, 2012, 01:30:40 PMpotentially it could add a lot to the game.

I'm just seeing unnecessary bookkeeping that won't make much of a difference between "you have 20 shots" and "You have 20 shots, plus another 15 you were only given so you wouldn't be able to use them".

QuoteIIRC they're driven by a power field aren't they?

Not sure about that. Normally, power fields are a form of defensive field. I think I've read something about a form of linear motor, but I can't remember whether that was someone quoting canon or their own fan interpretation.

Anyway, that's a bit like saying a car is driven by its engine. True, but what runs the engine?

QuoteOne might suggest that the "two-stroke" sound is there to invoke the chainsaw

It's definitely there to evoke the chainsaw - pure artistic licence, done for the sake of coolness over logic.

But I wouldn't suggest otherwise. While it would make much more sense, the chainsaw bayonet in Gears of War wouldn't be half as fun if it was electric.

I was thinking more in terms of someone finding a cache of gas charges (for example). Maybe he started off with 60 shots and the power pack is good for 100,  he finds 50 shots worth of gas charges so he either has to find some way of extending his power charge (leading him in one direction) or he has 10 shots worth of gas charges spare...

Power Fields certainly drove the chain fist, at least in its first incarnation - While the power field was originally available as a defensive field most of its uses tend to be aggressive (Thunder hammer, lightning claws, power fist, power sword...etc).

That's the disruption field (at least since I've been involved in 40k) - although it should be said that many GW authors do get it wrong and call them power fields instead.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 31, 2012, 02:01:41 PM
That's the disruption field (at least since I've been involved in 40k) - although it should be said that many GW authors do get it wrong and call them power fields instead.

The name is suitably nonspecific for it to be quite excusable, though, and in any case very little mention is actually made nowadays of a power field being a piece of defensive apparatus.