I want everyones input on this, I have 2 initial ideas for warbands:
the first two eldar brothers from the destroyed craftworld of kher-ys ashamed outcasts withba hatred for chaos seeking a tesseract prison cubes to imprison the main daemon culprits of the war, the second is a c'tan shard of a deciever type (he will only be the main boss and eillbonly appear in the final scenario) but has a group of fanatical if unstable followers, he seeks to become leader of yhe planet an have all of the population as followers.
Quote from: 0604854 on April 26, 2012, 05:27:19 PM
I want everyones input on this, I have 2 initial ideas for warbands:
the first two eldar brothers from the destroyed craftworld of kher-ys ashamed outcasts withba hatred for chaos seeking a tesseract prison cubes to imprison the main daemon culprits of the war
The motive suffers from one giant flaw. Daemons don't care about geometry; tesseract hyper-prisons will just annoy them. Your Eldar will end up going on some long overblown quest for a MacGuffin that, in practice, doesn't do anything.
Quotethe second is a c'tan shard of a deciever type (he will only be the main boss and eillbonly appear in the final scenario) but has a group of fanatical if unstable followers, he seeks to become leader of yhe planet an have all of the population as followers.
You would be better off with a daemon. This C'tan shard has no connection to your first group's focus on Chaos, not to mention all the problems inherent in a C'tan shard being mentally coherent enough to see the need for followers. At least with a daemon it's easier to justify it having ambitions.
Tesseract Labyrinths do imprison daemons, the grey knights have a vault of them for that exact purpose; however, it is necron tech which the Eldar actually consider as bad as if not worse than daemons
The 'culprits' of the fall of Kher-Ys include a greater daemonically possessed avatar body, these Eldar are in for a bit of a shock
and...C'TAN...if it's intact enough to attract followers, it literally has the power to wipe player characters off the very fabric of space-time
For a 'boss' consider a lesser daemon, they are still horrifically powerful in inquisitor, and perhaps go for psychic weapons or something rather than Tesseracts, besides the issues I have already pointed out, they can pretty much only be found in the hands of the necrons or on Titan; everywhere else, they are rarer than the Emperor's blessed faeces
This seems horribly cliched, as you have two outcasts who are related on a quest to defeat the an avatar of that which lead to their exile.
Some of the concepts you seem to be talking about go beyond power gaming (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=271.0) and into the realm of impossible to actually play scenarios (so here's the C'tan shard, he ignores all terrain, can't be killed and annihalates everything he so much as touches. Have fun!
Quote from: Mordenkenain on April 26, 2012, 07:01:26 PM
Tesseract Labyrinths do imprison daemons, the grey knights have a vault of them for that exact purpose
I'm fairly sure the Necron book goes into detail as to why daemons can just No Sell attempts to bring extra spatial and hyperspatial dimensions into play. Something about "a new facet of reality to corrupt". I don't see how it's going to work unless it's psychically warded.
I've heard that some types of obsidian are anti-psychic, and seeing as daemons are made of psychic energy, an obsidian prison would seem to be a solution.
Both warbands suffer from a flaw I think, as has been said before, C'tan, even in an incredibly weakened form are an impossibly strong enemy for a warbands, even in a scenario where it does not have to be faced directly things can very quickly become a contest in having enough luck to not get killed immediately.
A kind of prison for daemons is possible, but such an aim, especially when targeted at a specific daemon is immensely difficult, first they have to catch it, and then they will have to keep it imprisoned, while there are plenty of people who would gladly free the daemon hoping for a nice little reward.
I am sorry for being this negative but I think that such powerful beings have no place in Inquisitor, The difference in power easily becomes too great to allow anyone else to survive.
Point taken on the c'tan it would be a bit powerful, but c'tan followers would be a viable option still?
in terms of the eldar I am thinking of them hunting as many of the daemons as possible banishing them back to the warp, they are seeking a obsidian prison, a relic of the old ones for inprisoning daemons and other beings such as c'tan, their connection to the c'tan followers is information, the c'tan stole the prison during the war although it was lost during a battle with enslavers, it is thought the c'tan seek it and the eldar want to know what the c'tan followers know.
The new big bad buy will be a daemon who will be summoned by cultists who also seeks it to imprison some of he's daemonic rivals.
Is that any better?
Why do you even need the C'tan at all? You don't. Just make it a daemon, it's far less contrived.
The c'tan would not appear but he's followers will
Actually I'd go the opposite way, Daemons are ALWAYS the bad guys in Inquisitor games, it's a bit tiresome, and I don't see why a tiny, tiny, tiny, TINY, nonsentient shard of a C'tan couldn't have some place in Inquisitor - acting solely on the instinct to recombine with other shards and regain its power, but still capable of reacting to threats and instilling in other creatures that same desire to seek out other shards, co-opting their brainpower into finding a means to that end. In game terms the C'tan shard doesn't even need to be a character, it could be a piece of wargear in itself.
The Eldar idea, however, is contrived, cliched rubbish, scrap it and start over.
I want to have a warband of eldar what ideas do you have as an alternative
to all you people who are saying daemons can't be trapped in a tesseract labyrinth, see GK codex pg 11: The vault of labyrinths (although I don't think it's a great plot hook, for an inquisitor game)
to 0604854: you could easily keep the survivors from Kher-Ys thing, just ditch the OTT vengeance thing, it makes characters quite 1 dimensional, choose a more detailed motive for them. If they are the only survivors, they'll have suddenly found themselves with no real place in the galaxy, their craftworld is gone, and they'll be tainted in the eyes of other Eldar... why not see where that line of reasoning leads
Quote from: Mordenkenain on April 27, 2012, 11:28:09 PMsee GK codex pg 11
That would involve trying to read something Mat Ward had written without vomiting on it.
Quote from: Mordenkenain on April 27, 2012, 11:28:09 PM
to all you people who are saying daemons can't be trapped in a tesseract labyrinth, see GK codex pg 11: The vault of labyrinths (although I don't think it's a great plot hook, for an inquisitor game)
Contrast with Codex: Necrons pg.85 (the box marked "Strange Sciences"). Ward doesn't know what he's talking about if he's flip-flopping between "yes they can" and "no they can't".
In terms of physics, I don't see how it's possible unless the ones the Grey Knights use are warded/somehow sealed against Warp-stuff/made from things that daemons don't like, as otherwise there is absolutely no reason for daemons to care about there being more, or indeed fewer, than the three dimensions to which we are accustomed. The fact that the ones the Grey Knights use are then sealed in stasis probably comes in quite handy once they've been pokéballed, but a four-dimensional labyrinth (in and of itself) ain't gonna hold them for long.
Daemons can be trapped in weapons so i cannot see why not in a another device plus the c'tan certainly would have the reason to create this during the war in heaven as would the old ones
for that matter, at their height the eldar may have been capable (impridoning in a pocket in the webway).
Quote from: 0604854 on April 28, 2012, 10:24:36 AM
Daemons can be trapped in weapons so i cannot see why not in a another device
That's different. Daemons have to be specifically bound to weapons in order to trap them there, and by and large, that's powered by sorcery and/or sheer willpower, not science. Not to mention that daemons can fight their way out of such weapons and into their users.
Still i think the old ones, necrons and eldar have it in theor capabilities, i think that it could be the daemons are not actually trapped in the device bit it rather could be a portal to a picket dimension possibly of the webway that is a one way portal so daemons cannot escape
Daemons can be trapped in the Tesseract Labyrinth - the two sources don't actually conflict on that point. Where they differ is on how the Daemon feels about it. Codex: Necrons says the Daemons will "Corrupt and Devour" the pocket dimensions within the tesseract, and the Grey Knights codex says it's a fate worse than death as their isolation from the Warp erodes their ability to maintain cohesion.
it's entirely possible that a Daemon trapped in a tesseract will start off corrupting the pocket dimension, but that corruption will require power, and the only source of warp energy within the Tesseract dimension is the Daemon itself - unable to draw on any other power source but still compelled to spread corruption the Daemon will use the essence of its own being to carry out its goal, gleefully tearing itself apart in the persuit of its end.
But to corrupt a dimension is to control it, and normally doing so will allow the Daemon the ability to escape at will, unless prevented from doing so. Necrons have little talent for Warpcraft, the latest codex implies that Null Field technology is a large and power-hungry technology rarely deployed on less than a planetary scale, and even then generally confined to large Canoptek constructs, they are not integral to the design of the Tesseracts, because they would have no effect on the beings the tesseracts were designed to contain, the C'tan.
But the Grey Knights? they have millennia of experience fighting nothing but daemons, and they ward the tesseracts in such a way that makes escape impossible. the daemon can still corrupt the pocket dimension, but will be unable to escape even after gaining such control over it, like being given free reign over a prison but still being unable to escape it. It'll throw resources at the barrier - the only resource it has, itself - untill it is weak and dispersed, a barely-sentient thing controlling a pocket dimension that it is unable to even contemplate escaping until the labyrinth is opened, a connection to the warp is re-established and it can reconstitute itself and escape....into a warded interrogation chamber.
Quote from: Charax on April 28, 2012, 12:03:29 PM
But the Grey Knights? they have millennia of experience fighting nothing but daemons, and they ward the tesseracts in such a way that makes escape impossible.
That's my point, though, since daemons don't much care about dimensional analysis in and of itself -- in particular, Tzeentchian types probably encounter weirder things than 4-D hypercubes on a daily basis. This more or less necessitates the extra protection you've mentioned that keeps a tesseract labyrinth's prisoner stuck there.
I'd agree. Four dimensions in of itself? Come on, daemons live in the warp. Time and distance flow like water there. Seconds turn into years, years turn into hours, hours turn into centimetres, centimetres turn into walruses. It's a realm of no fixed rules, and as many or as few dimensions as it likes. Every now and again, daemons will wander through a bit of the warp that works like a Picasso painting for every Tuesday simultaneously, or an infinite expanse collapsed into a single dimensionless point for an eternity that lasts but an instant.
In my opinion, most daemons would probably be more amused that anyone thought that four dimensions was anywhere near weird enough to contain them.
To contain a daemon you would probably require a lot of wardings, and in time, even they would fail. Daemons are the incarnation of insanity, I don;t think that it is possible to confuse them with their surroundings, they will always have encountered stranger things.
I was merely pointing out that it is not a cut and dried 'no way in hell' if you wanted to use it as a plot device.
However, should we not getting back to the purpose of this thread and help 0604854 with his warband(s) rather than discussing whether or not Mat Ward can even spell consistency
For the eldar band, I think the vital consideration is in how they'll conflict with the other (likely Imperial human) warbands they encounter. Are they arrogant and feel that it must be them who make the daemons suffer? Are they gathering human psykers to act as bait for their enemy? Or raiding libraries (or even forgeworld datastacks) for leads on the tesseract? The more routes to their goal that you can think of, the easier it'll be to craft scenarios.
When you refer to the C'tan shard as the main boss, are you meaning the group to be the main npc antagonists of a campaign? If so, a pumped up daemonhost archetype would work I reckon, with the degree of pumping dependent on style of campaign and the protagonist warbands involved - if the deathwatch are on call for instance, it can be quite the monster. There's also the matter of how/if daemonology psychics and anti-psyk weapons affect the shard, to differentiate it from your regular warpspawn.
If you're after a warband for yourself to play in a campaign, perhaps lead it with a shard-possessed human; give them a wyrd power appropriate to the C'tan, perhaps Nerves of Steel if the shard forgets that it's host body is vulnerable to the material universe, and maybe a Sagacity over 100 or another quirk that fits better (my knowledge of C'tan going as far as that the Callidus temple nicked their swords). Accompany that with a xenologist with a bionics obsession as he tries to turn himself into a necron and either some duped muscle or a cultist worshipping the shard-host as a saint. Make it a resurrectionist cultist/preacher and you have conflict with the Hereticus and possibly every Thorian inquisitor out there.
While I agree with everyone else on the C'tan being too powerful for an Inquisitor game, I actually like the idea of the last Eldars of craftworld Kher-Ys. Though the vengeance-hook is tempting, you might want to consider the other options available to you. Like, one of the brothers (maybe he has dark hair and a brooding manner) seeks vengeance in his every move, cursing the wicked fate of the gods for their situation, while the other brother(who, maybe, has fair hair and a more open manner) might be on a quest of his own...maybe he wants to learn from the forces of chaos, dubbing his brother into thinking that they're on the same side, while all the while he's really looking for some way to bring back relatives or loved ones through the power of chaos.
Now, I'm not really much of a fluff-nut on 40k, and I know that the eldar race hates chaos as a whole and slaneesh especially, but in my opinion this game is all about interesting characters and fast paced, indulging games. If you want to go with the eldar brothers, I'd say go for it and let it develop from there.
Daemons make excellent arch-nemesises, as they're pretty much the incarnation of evil. And while the daemon will probably be two steps ahead of them in everything (and in every dimension) it's always nice when your characters does something unexpected. Like have a fallout with his brother.