So what rules and stats would you use for demons... the rules in the rulebook don't feel right for "real" demons, and not the classical demonhost.
as i have a bloodletter and a horror in my collection (to be seen in my modelthread on this board) and i would like to use them in games i am in need for ideas how to do "demons"
they should be a hard bit of work for my players (as they appear in the concluding szenario of the actual campaign) and i will probably acquire another bloodletter for this... (so i can focus on khorne only and use the horror another time or unleash pure demonhorror by having 3 of them roaming around...)
any ideas?
This question seems to be cropping up quite a lot recently, so once again I'm going to reuse the answer I gave a few weeks ago (apologies to those of you who've read it already).
GW printed rules for daemons in the 2004 annual (I forget where they originally appeared).
However if I were GMing a game featuring a daemon (or two) as the climax to a campaign, I'd want it to be a titanic battle; one where the players are constantly thinking 'Will we be able to kill it in time?!' and half the PCs are bloodied and broken before they finally manage to defeat it.
Therefore I wouldn't bother working out a full set of stats for the daemon(s), I'd just use my GM powers and make it up on-the-fly. Of course, I wouldn't tell the players that's what I was doing - I'd have some notes on a bit of paper and keep ticking things off whenever it took damage etc so they thought it had stats like a regular character; but what I'd actually do would be to make it tougher if they seemed like they were going to beat it too easily, have it start doing less damage if I thought it was going to overwhelm them too quickly and so on. That way there's no chance of a lucky shot killing it before it has chance to strike the requisite fear into the players, and you can make sure the players really have to work to destroy it. The better the player's strategies, the more chance of success I'd give them - if they did something boring like hide and shoot it in the back then the shots would patter off it's skin like rain, but if they did something cool and exciting then I'd be more likely to let their plan succeed.
If you do that, then you're going to get a really exciting, cinematic battle and the players will realise that taking on daemons is not for the faint hearted.
Quote from: Darios on August 13, 2009, 12:49:27 PM
So what rules and stats would you use for demons... the rules in the rulebook don't feel right for "real" demons, and not the classical demonhost.
I'd use my own. I should probably get around to reposting them at some point
so annual 2004? any chance i can get these rules as pdf?
@ kaled: your idea is good but i'm one of the kind who likes to have all settled down and clear to see ^^
besides i often reuse such things and therefor would like to make a real character sheet for it...
I don't believe they were ever made available as a PDF, but you can often find the annual on eBay. The rules were pretty generic though; they just covered general categories like 'lesser daemon' with a note saying you should adapt it as necessary to get a specific type of daemon.
I wish I'd thought to keep copies of the old Character indices.
First things first:
What's the daemon's name? What event coallesced warp matter into its consciousness? What event brought it to Manifestation in the "real" world? What plans does it have to subvert that even in order to drive forward its longer term schemes? What are its longer term schemes? How do they contribute to its long term goals?
If it's a Khornate daemon then what is the name of its Blade Brother? Do the two share the same goals? Do they share the same conception of how to acheive those goals?
What is the history of this immortal? What is it's character? How has it already influenced the path of the campaign? Has it a champion among the other characters involved? Is that champion aware of its influence? By means of what events has it guided the (potential) champion to the place and attitude it needs them to be?
Just to clarify...
A daemon; particularly a lesser, prince or greater; should be a character in its own right - they aren't simply monsters to throw at an Inquisitor for whom you have few other ideas.
They are immortal beings with little to do but plot and scheme - and as such they're quite good at it...
For stats you should consider a Bloodletter to be comparable to a Space Marine, somewhere around 150 for their strength and toughness... a Prince or a Greater should probably not have stats of any sort - at the scale we're working they're godlike and should be dealt with in ways other than direct combat.
Hmm, there was an exterminatus article about 'unbound' daemons. Without access to it I'm just going to throw my thought down.
I'd say they are immune to system shock and unconciousness. If their damage totol ever reaches their full toughness then they are unsustainably damaged and leave real space automatically. Otherwise I'd say that it is all about their instability. They need to take a Wp test every turn as per the banishment power (if they fail they take D3 damage per point they failed by, and if they roll more than double what they needed to pass they are sucked back to the warp. I'd say that their damage total is a negative modifier to this Wp test. They may re-roll the Wp test if they are near a sustaining source, e.g. an appropriate ritual, a chaotic relic or a weakness in the real-space / warp-space boundary.
All daemons would also have regenerate, impervious, ambidexterous and fearsome. Some will have other demonic exotic abilities and some will be terrifying. Force of will and nerves of steel would also be probable.
For the bloodletter I'd say something like:
Ws . Bs . S . T . I . Wp . Sg . Nv . Ld
80 . 60. 90. 70. 70. 70. 60. 100. 70
ceramite carapace armour (equivalent) on chest and abdomin (though the new models indicate that this is optional. A standard close combat weapon (ussualy falchions or great axes) with gnawing, bound, and potentially other daemonic abilities. This equipment will return to the warp with the daemon weilder.
Frenzy, furious assault, nerves of steel. Maybe invunerable. razor sharp claws
Horror I know less about, but they hurl fireballs right?
Ws . Bs . S . T . I . Wp . Sg . Nv . Ld
60 . 60. 70. 60. 80. 80. 70. 100. 60
Catfall, Wyrd: fireball, burning fist and blinding flash. razor sharp claws
mhmm for the abilities i had much the same in mind as you, cade.
but terrifing should be in there for all demons... it's 40k and the sight of these... things.... is often too much for mere mortals.
i thought about adopting the idea of the invulnerable save from 40k... something linke: d6 forcefield on all locations... representing the raw energy of the warp which makes the deamons form...
the stats for the bloodletter seem a bit weak to me... i also think it should be in the regions of aa space marine (though BS might be a lot worse)
Do you know the Space marines rules by Lord Inquisitor on Dark Magenta issue 1? Unless my memory has failed me the Bloodletter is about as strong as a Space marine, and has a higher weapon skill.
Not all daemons are terrifying in my opinion. Admitadly they would be to the likes of you and me, but then we would find almost any Inquisitor or henchman at least fearsome. The lesser daemons are not going to be terrifying to the battle hardened characters who participate in gamess of Inquisitor, whereas a bloodthirster would be.
I think the daemonic invunerability is better represented by immunity to system shock and unconciousness. Maybe some Tzeentchean daemons would have psychic shield too, but I don't think it is something that all daemons have.
Aha! found them.
Bloodletters:
http://thebook.isgreat.org/Daemons.html#Bloodletter
The rules for Chaos Items and their abilities are here:
http://thebook.isgreat.org/Items.html
and as for the actual Daemon's abilities?
Bestial face & Horns are in the Alien Generator rules, I'm sure Marco will link to them for you.
Metal Body: D3+4 armour. Because everything a Daemon manifests is basically part of his body anyway, it doesn't particularly matter where the armour physically is.
Cloven Hooves. Add 1 yard to all movement values, cannot sneak, all movement regardless of distance has a hearing range of 15 yards
There we go. I really need to clear out these old files.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 13, 2009, 01:28:47 PM
What's the daemon's name? What event coallesced warp matter into its consciousness? ...
My first thought when reading this lot was that it may all be utterly irrelevant depending on the scenario being played - the characters involved may well not know any of those things, and hence there's little need for the GM to know them (especially if he's the type who will happily make such details up on the fly if it does comes up in the game).
Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on August 13, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Not all daemons are terrifying in my opinion. Admitadly they would be to the likes of you and me, but then we would find almost any Inquisitor or henchman at least fearsome. The lesser daemons are not going to be terrifying to the battle hardened characters who participate in gamess of Inquisitor, whereas a bloodthirster would be.
I think
Terrifying is perfectly appropriate. The difference between you or me and the battle hardened characters we use in our games is that they have far higher Nv values - there's no need to downgrade a daemons level of scariness.
q kaled: i thought pretty much the same... *g*
Quote from: Kaled on August 13, 2009, 01:10:32 PMGW printed rules for daemons in the 2004 annual (I forget where they originally appeared).
Exterminatus 5 I believe.
Close... it was issue 6.
Okay then, I can't remember what issues of Exterminatus I have.
I did misplace that issue some time ago, which is disappointing, but somewhat inevitable given my normal state of tidiness.
Quote from: Kaled on August 13, 2009, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 13, 2009, 01:28:47 PM
What's the daemon's name? What event coallesced warp matter into its consciousness? ...
My first thought when reading this lot was that it may all be utterly irrelevant depending on the scenario being played - the characters involved may well not know any of those things, and hence there's little need for the GM to know them (especially if he's the type who will happily make such details up on the fly if it does comes up in the game).
On the other hand, the GM has every right to expect that the player know where their Inquisitor was born (or why they don't know... or why they don't know why they don't know...etc).
I would not expect a GM to create an Inquisitor who is to form the focus of the campaign without such details. I would not expect to progress through the campaign without the opportunity to illuminate such details by my choice of action and therefore potentially expose a weakness in the ultimate adversary.
I would suggest that if anything a Daemon's nature should make this sort of information more important than in a flesh and blood opponent. Imagine for example that one of the Inquisitors decides to bring an appropriate sacrifice in order to capture the daemon in a Daemonhost rather than attempting to destroy it...
And yet in most games any daemonic aspect is "A bloodletter" or "A Lord of Change". A two dimensional parody of the sheer horror such elements should represent.
Making things up on the fly is all very well with minor roles, with major factors however it is vital that consistency is retained and therefore that (even if initial hints are improvised) some record is kept to describe the shape of things and their fine detail.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 14, 2009, 01:17:26 PM
On the other hand, the GM has every right to expect that the player know where their Inquisitor was born (or why they don't know... or why they don't know why they don't know...etc).
I'd say such information is rarely necessary - the details of an Inquisitor's early life
may be irrevelevant. If the GM does need to know that information for some reason then the player can make it up at that point.
QuoteI would not expect a GM to create an Inquisitor who is to form the focus of the campaign without such details. I would not expect to progress through the campaign without the opportunity to illuminate such details by my choice of action and therefore potentially expose a weakness in the ultimate adversary.
As I said, it depends on the scenario. You're assuming the characters know they're going to come up against a daemon and have opportunity to potentially expose its weakness - that might not be the case. The appearance of the daemon might come as a complete surprise to the players/characters.
QuoteMaking things up on the fly is all very well with minor roles, with major factors however it is vital that consistency is retained and therefore that (even if initial hints are improvised) some record is kept to describe the shape of things and their fine detail.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily vital. An important part of improvising well is to make things only as detailed as necessary, but still keep them vague enough to allow you some wiggle room should you need it later.
While your Daemons are pretty stock Darios (not that this is a bad thing, they're beautiful models), I think players and GMs should be encouraged to experiment with daemonic characters and treat the 40K stats and details as more of a loose template. Daemons are only generic in 40K because they have to be for the sake of the rules, just as units or guardsmen are fairly generic. Statlines are uniform because they need to be in order for the game to be playable. Just as you wouldn't give an Inquisitor a retinue of generic storm troopers daemons should have their own variations as well.
I would personally shy away from generic daemons in favor of creating ones devoted to an individual chaos god. For a long time I've wanted to create a daemon based on the ones seen in Dead Sky, Black Sun who evaporate into a cloud of blood when foes attempt to strike them, only to reform again after.
Anyway, aside from that flight of fancy, I'd agree with most here that say a traditional Bloodletter should have a statline roughly equivalent to a space marine. You could tone down the toughness and give them some of the daemonic properties mentioned in the rule book to compensate (where mundane weapons to half damage). Playing around with these rules in game would be key and could be a good compromise between Kaled's method of on the fly rules (which I think would work great) and the desire to have an actual statline. If you find the daemon is loosing HP too quick, then you could knock blessed weapons down to only doing their normal amount of damage (rather than increased damage). Having good backup plans for optional use (say blood is drawn to the Bloodletter and helps reform his body so he gains the regenerate ability if someone is bleeding within X inches) is a good idea as well. Add a chamber to the scenario with a blood fountain and then you're really cooking. If you find it's unnecessary, then conveniently drop the rule in game.
QuoteOtherwise I'd say that it is all about their instability.
As far as their instability goes, I'd suggest definitely putting something in the scenario to negate the need to test for this. There would be nothing worse than having a long, hardfought battle where your inquisitor is raising his sword to deliver the killing blow when all of a sudden the Bloodletter just disintegrates back into the warp due to an instability role. Completely anticlimactic. All you need is a reason for the daemon to be stable for a few hours (since most scenarios probably last a number of minutes) and you're good to go. Say the scenario takes place near a hole in the warp, there's a warpstorm, a chaos cult has sacrificed 20 virgins, etc.
Anyway, enough ranting. Either way, daemons should make for a fun scenario.
QuoteAs far as their instability goes, I'd suggest definitely putting something in the scenario to negate the need to test for this. There would be nothing worse than having a long, hardfought battle where your inquisitor is raising his sword to deliver the killing blow when all of a sudden the Bloodletter just disintegrates back into the warp due to an instability role. Completely anticlimactic.
This is why I made Instability add to the injury total - instability makes a daemon easier to defeat, but only the very weak-willed ones are likely to disappear in a puff of logic. While instability kicking in just before the killing blow is dealt is still possible, it's not nearly as likely.
That, or just keep the daemon around someone with the Mark of Khorne to keep them anchored, then you can either take on the daemon head-on, or take on the mark-bearer to weaken the daemon.
well maybe i should explain a bit more about the actual campaign...
first of all: there are no player controlled inquisitors here. not a single one. the two player groups is an Arbites combat team and a redemprionist gang. *g* so no one in there with enough knowledge to even suspect that demons are for real.
the storyline began with the redemptionists searching for missing members and getting into conflict with the arbites on the way. the arbites are doing researches about missing people from the hive spires and suspect some serial killer behind it all, or maybe a death cult.
so when they meet the arbites get the impression that the redemptionist are somewhat involved into all this, thus making them enemies. in the course of events it turns out that there is another cult involved which abducts people (what the cult does with them, the players still don't know....) and in the end it turns out to be a chaos death cult doing bloody rituals to invoke something they call "avatar of blood" (which is a certain bloodletter / herald of Khorne) both players are now trying to find out what is going on, the redemptionists to take revenge for their lost members and the arbites to purge any crimes. so there is no chance to bind the demon and so on, the groups simply lack the knowledge for it.
so what i was looking for were more or less ideas to properly represent a deamons ability "ingame". and as he was properly invoked ( if the ritual in the last szenario is working out ^^ without the players stopping it) there is no need for instability so far....
Is no one else stunned to see Charax's Books of Chaos back online? Did I miss a pronouncement?
R.
I was wondering if anyone would notice, but it's not really back, I just put the scraps left over from a previous quasi-revival up so people could see the daemon rules. that's why half of it doesn't work.
It seems like the rules for Gifts are lost to the ether though.
The old WFRP rules for instability provide a better basis for the Inquisitor system than the battle game rules. In WFRP the instability test didn't occur every round, the unstable creature could be relied upon to do what it was there for for at least a certain amount of time.
Of course the issue that skeletons and such would almost always collapse in a heap as soon as they were forced to test... while the major threats to the party's life and limb would invariably become devastating killing machine, all through the vagueries of the dice, could be tricky to handle.
As to the scenario outlined...
I would suggest that a great deal of information is still required.
Why is that particular daemon and its blade brother the target of the summoning? What are its plans within the world? What is its name?...etc.
The summoning will need information and a good Arbiter should note such information - which may, justifiably, come up later in the campaign.
The picture painted ATM is that the level boss has appeared on the scene - it needs to be killed before things can progress.
And that is not the way Daemons should work.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 13, 2009, 01:28:47 PMI wish I'd thought to keep copies of the old Character indices.
Do you mean the 20 Questions, or something else?
I have the 20 Questions saved from the old Conclave, so I can post those up if you need them. If it's something else, give me a title and I'll try to dig it up.
The 20 Questions would be good too - but I had a daemon posted up in the two character indices; M'Hett M'Teth, background and some personality...etc in the OOC board thread and stats...etc in the Rules discussion one.