I wasn't quite sure where to post this thread, I hope I got it right though. As you've probably seen, I've been posting new versions of my Inquisitor's backstory quite chronically. The first one, I started answering too many questions, while the second one I lost interest in after awhile and wanted to go back to my original character design. So, I followed up and attempted two other versions. The first is not worth much mentioning, it was so full of cheese and hollywood cliches that I should be shot for even considering it. The next one, which I have posted, was a pretty decent improvement, however, something was wrong with it. I found myself having a hard time reading certain parts, they just didn't sit well with me. And I have a bad feeling that I can no longer relate to the character, even though I changed mostly her backstory, and not her persona. The reason why I write, is for my characters and to experience the story through them, seeing the world through similar yet different eyes, and if I can't do that, a good chunk of my motivation to write is gone.
I know you guys are brilliant writers and generally creative people, which is why I need some advice. Am I completely out to lunch? Or is this normal and how do I get around it?
Thanks for your time, I appreciate your interest
MacK
It's normal. Don't trick yourself into thinking anything different.
I'm afraid I'm a little too incoherent to reply to your background thread right now, having had a long and rather hard day, but I will get around to it. Given that what you're going to get out of me at present is ramblings, I'm leaving them here.
Multiple drafts of a character is normal for me - although this is normally done via a Word file which gets assaulted with ideas for different elements of a character until one of the options sticks. For example, I might write two paragraphs, one for if the character's personality is pretty mellow, another for if they're a more fiery individual. From there, ideas tend to spider together - individual elements that just complement one another - and create a conglomeration of concepts that hopefully leads to the end result. The "spare ideas" usually just get unceremoniously deleted as I go.
Some people might protest, but I don't usually bother saving these ideas. I'm usually in the position that I have too many ideas, not too few. Those ideas which are worth developing will usually have already broken off into their own concepts by the point I've decided it doesn't work for this character. Those which aren't get scrapped.
What this means is that by the time anyone else sees a character sheet, it's usually had a lot of work put into it. I don't pretend to be a master, but I get enough positive comments on the believability and depth of my characters that I must be doing something right.
But I don't always get it perfect. Every now and again, a character gets further than they should, and becomes part of things without me having sorted the concept.
Renatus Neuvler and Jax Lynn are two examples - both got very major rewrites. (For me, "major rewrite" tends to mean: Take basic concept, put the emphasis back on that, and then for good measure, change the character's gender.)
Now as far as characters not working, it usually means one of two things to me.
1) I haven't yet defined the character well enough for them to seem real. (Hence why my character backgrounds tend to read like small novels.)
2) There's a flaw in the background that stops them seeming real. The solution here is to read through and find what doesn't want to work. If it's not obvious (as it often isn't), then I suggest vaguely looking at what I suggest above - strip back things that aren't really related to the core concepts you began with, and try replacing them. Although sometimes, nothing short of a full redesign is enough.
I can't necessarily tell you how that might apply to you, but it might give you some techniques you can experiment with. Alternatively, with the way I feel, it may well be useless drivel. I'll find out tomorrow, I suppose.
Anyway. Bed.
Thanks mate, it makes a lot of sense. I remember reading an article in my writer's craft course that said something that stuck with me,"If there was one sure way of writing well, every novel would be a best seller." Sadly, I tend to go through bouts were I can't think of anything, and times where I am pushing out ideas faster than I can work with them. One of the key points that I've narrowed down, is that I need to do more reading. It takes an enormous amount of interest or effort to get me to read a book, but if its decent, I'll be immersed in it completely, and my ideas tend to reflect what I'm reading, though I do my best to not copy the ideas to a certain point, more translate the concept to my own work.
And you may find this funny, but Elva used to be guy named Edward, however I got a bit bored of the character but loved the concept, so I spiced it up a bit with that plus some more minor tweaks.
I also am making an effort to get to know my characters better. I started writing very inexperienced, so old habits such as changing the character's personas to what's convenient at the time sometimes haunt me. Though I owe you a huge amount of gratitude, as it was one of your sheets that gave me the rough idea to start mapping them out before I get to involved in a story.
I'm a very visual person as well, so if I get an image in my head that I don't like, it turns me away from writing(even if I wrote it hehe). Though going over the one I wasn't happy with before, it seems a lot better after twenty four or so hours.
Hehe, it seems I'm starting to rant too :)
And I was pretty sure I wasn't alone, that's why I posted it here. I'll be sure to use this as reference for my current, and any future work.
Many thanks for the advice,
MacK
Well, I'll just say that it can be remarkably useful to lose all of your hard work in character creation due to a hardware crash - it forces you to start from scratch, looking at the model and deciding what it was about the character that you originally liked - for example, one character has gone from Recongregator who takes a grim satisfaction in torturing the corrupt, to a slightly mad Istvaanian who doesn't see war as the best means to the end, but the end in itself.
As to the thing about your writing reflecting what you're reading, that's very common and shows a healthy enthusiasm for what you're reading. What you'll find is that the more you read, the more diluted this effect will become, until eventually you're merely subconsciously allowing the aspects of a writer's work to influence your own writing style, which is itself merely a mass of all these influences and inspirations. At the moment, your writing is probably somehow 'young' enough that individual novels and the like can have a big difference (I remember until very recently my enthusiasm for a book would be so overwhelming that i'd go away and write a sort of twisted copy, like a stylistic chameleon.
The most accomplished and interesting writers are not born this way - they are merely the best-read (and most interested in what they read.
Asimov or Pratchett, can't remember which, was once told by a prospective writer that they had stopped reading, to avoid influence - He responded "why on Earth would you do that? Influence is what makes writers interesting!"
I guess I better start reading then. I've got two books that I should get to work on. One is Redcoat, its by Bernard Cornwell who also wrote the Sharpe Series(I've always been a lover of the British Napoleonic era army, and a bit of a dabbler in other stages of the redcoat). The other was recommended to me by a teacher, its called The Gate to Women's Country. I'm not quiet sure what to make of it yet. I've only read a couple pages, and the language is very strong.
Influence is also what makes us who we are in my opinion. We are sculpted and morphed from the moment we are born well until we die by outside influences. One thing that I do credit for my better than average reading and writing skills(which is sad that I can brag about such a small accomplishment), is that I read the Horatio Hornblower books when i was eleven or twelve. Which exposed me to strong language at an early stage. I've also been raised amongst books, whether it was comics, or novels that i read with my parents, my family has always loved to read. And it makes me sad to hear people say "I don't like to read." and when they say these "Rappers" have a way with language, which is crap in my opinion, if they have such miserable lives with all that money and doing what they love, then the should get a blog and use proper grammar and appropriate words.
Hehe, that got me in a bit of a tiffy. But I really want to be a good writer, for both myself and the sake of the language.
Quote from: Elva on July 31, 2010, 01:15:30 AMSadly, I tend to go through bouts were I can't think of anything, and times where I am pushing out ideas faster than I can work with them.
Well, my normal experience with writer's block is that it's not a lack of ideas, but that I don't like what I've come up with.
Which is often why I write more if suffering writer's block. I just throw lots and lots of ideas around, and ultimately, I usually find that something will come up and provide an inspiration boost.
QuoteAnd you may find this funny, but Elva used to be guy named Edward, however I got a bit bored of the character but loved the concept, so I spiced it up a bit with that plus some more minor tweaks.
I've done that enough times - as I already explained, two of my "major rewrites" made the male/female swap.
In Renatus' case, it was partly because I decided while I liked the appearance and the basic concept, they didn't really feel like they went together. So I split them off and went looking for a new appearance that did fit the concept, scouring a large folder of downloaded art I keep on my hard drive for inspiration. What I found fitted best was a sort of "modern witch", so... gender change.
In Jax's case, it was because one of my group kept calling him Jacqueline (his/her name was/is Jax Lynn) which got me thinking about quite how few female mutant characters there are. So, as I was planning on doing a rewrite anyway, I thought it was a concept worth exploring.
(I've also done it a third time with Frost, although she was only a vague concept when I decided she would be female instead, so it's not really the same thing.)
The other thing I found with it is that it helps distance the character from the earlier version, so it's easier to avoid confusing the two.
Don't be too afraid of making big changes if necessary, although it is still best to avoid them in a particularly developed character if possible. Jax was the oldest character I'd ever done such a major do-over on - I first mentioned him Jan 2009 (as part of another character's background), but he remained a only moderately defined "secondary" character until about August. So she was about approaching a year old when I re-wrote her. I'd normally hope not to have a character that far out of whack for that long.
Minor edits are usually free game at any time, although often it's surprising how much those can add up to over a few months or years...
QuoteI also am making an effort to get to know my characters better. I started writing very inexperienced, so old habits such as changing the character's personas to what's convenient at the time sometimes haunt me. Though I owe you a huge amount of gratitude, as it was one of your sheets that gave me the rough idea to start mapping them out before I get to involved in a story.
Yes, that's a deliberate habit of mine. If I fail to set out a character before I start using them, they have a bit of habit of ending up with a very vague personality... or ending up acting too much like me.
Not to say that a character has to be completely defined when you start - it'd be a shame if they couldn't pick up quirks and personality traits along the way.
~~~~~
As others have said, don't be worried by influence. Any character will include some influence (even if you can't necessarily work out where from), and that's not a bad thing. If you like an idea, use it. Do something to make it your own, but never tell yourself you can't use an idea because someone else has - if you did that, you'd never do anything for fear of not being entirely original!
As an aside on the rap point, I can't profess to being an expert as I don't listen to much, but its not nonsense when they say that some rap is quality nonsense. I count myself as fairly well read, but I've encountered very few poets who can use internal rhyme, for example, as dextrously as Eminem. Maybe Eliot could, but then he is recognised as one of the greatest phonetic poets for a hundred years.
Actually Eminem is one of the few rappers I respect, mainly because he was on the scene before it became main stream and the quality took a long dip downwards. Content is also a factor and I'm not a fan of some of the hateful and excessive lyrics that get record deals.
On a separate note, I have another question :P. I'm working on Elva, and I can't seem to find a personality that sits right with me. Probably because I've never really chosen a set one for her before, but now I'm up to the challenge and I can't seem to find what I'm looking for. What do you do when you run into this?
"artists copy, Masters steal" Van gough don't be disheartened, when you get a truely wonderfull idea it makes all the false starts worthwile, a good question to ask is what have you always wanted to include in a game, no matter how bizzare or far feched.
I use random background generators to give me ideas.
You can blame them on Jamas Orian's 6000 word backstory
Quote from: GAZKUL on October 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PM"artists copy, Masters steal" Van gough
Not sure that's Van Gogh - it's most often attributed to Pablo Picasso (although slightly differently worded), but as far as I know, there's also no proof he said it!
More likely, it's a paraphrasing of T.S. Eliot - from "The Sacred Wood":
"Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion."With that context in mind, it's clear that it's also frequently misunderstood. It's not there to say "If you're an amateur, copying is fine" (the most common interpretation) - it says that simply copying is the mark of the amateur, and it's not portraying that as a good thing.
Everyone has their influences and inspirations - even the greatest of masters isn't immune to that. The question is, are you a person who's simply reusing, or are you reforging it into something new and unique?
Everyone has their own way of 'summoning the muse', and some members of this board have even written Dark Magenta articles about their own creative process.
However, my creative process is a lot more more chaotic than most. I think that a lot of people here like to "write" a character (I.E. The idea comes to them as they write it down, and doing so helps to straighten all the loose threads of thought in their heads,) I tend to "think" a character into being. That is - I'll let them stew in my head for several months, perhaps even years, before putting pen to paper.
I don't often sit down in front of a blank word document and say: "Now I'm going to create a character." When you just sit down and tell yourself something like that, you'll often run into difficulty as you can't just poof good ideas into existence without falling into terrible cliches. For me, the creation of characters is normally a very slow, organic process... Although some characters do just come to you overnight, after a particularly vivid nightmare.
I normally start with a 'loose end' from another one of my existing background stories, or even a loose end from the 40k canon. For instance, one of my most infamously horrifying characters, the Hive Maiden, started life as little more than a footnote in the background of a Dark Heresy character, and over the course of about a year, became a fully-fledged character in her (or technically, it's) own right. It takes time and patience for me to create an interesting character, but I'm rarely in any sort of rush. The only time I ever worked to a time limit was during the last Conclave character competition.
So, to answer the above question - do I ever go back and edit characters in a major overhaul? No, not often. By the time that I actually reveal the character to the world, and start playing with them, I've already pondered and pondered upon them for a very long time, and have already made all the alterations that I'm likely to want to make. A few examples of characters who I'm still 'stewing', and who I still make heavy alterations to, are Inquisitor Lucifer (who is getting a lot of alterations at the moment, mainly to their appearance and gender). The best appearance I've yet come up with is a sexually androgynous version of Frank Langella's Skeletor. Lucifer is basically a terrifyingly powerful telekinetic with a real "cruel, manipulative chessplayer" vibe about them. Another character who I've been working on (on and off for a couple of years) is the famed General Hector Hernandez Magellan, the military genius who has led the Imperial forces in the Levitus Subsector to uncountable victories against innumerable odds. However, centuries of war have left his sanity in tatters, and occasionally, female soldiers under his command have been known to simply disappear after being summoned to his chambers. He has cannibalistic tendencies, commits rape on a regular basis, and has a particular fondness for necrophilia. However, since his soul is "free of taint from the ruinous powers", and his perversions are purely caused by plain, HUMAN insanity, the Imperial Guard tends to cover up his misdeeds, simply so that they can keep his tactical genius at the front line. The really scary thing about him is that when he dies, the Imperial history books will probably remember him as a gallant hero. The truth is that he was a terrifying psychopath.
With these characters, I tend to try to work in the things that genuinely frighten, or horrify me. Big, scary monsters, daemons that want to eat your soul, aliens that want to eat your flesh.... None of these things inspire quite as much fear as a human being. We are our own worst nightmares, really.
With Hector, I'm basically trying to create a man who is in a position of power over all his victims, and there's nothing his victims can do to get out of it. They officially can't deny his requests if he makes them an order. That's what makes him scary.
So, really, my character creation process isn't really complex, it's just horrendously disorganised and chaotic. However, it's what works for me, and I'm sure that no two Inquisitor players work these things out in the same way.
I found this quite intresting.
You can never have read too many books. If your having problems with writing, go off and read something, then right about it. Write a report or a summary or how it made you feel. This kind of thing doesn't work for everyone but it can be very beneficial. Alot of authors go with the 'Great writers aren't born' line and I really think its true but there is more to it than just reading. You'll always be more successfull if you write about what you know in some shape or form.
A back story, like a novel, should be writen in the past tense, it's something that has happened. If you don't work out what happened before you write it, you'll get bogged down and lost. I heard an interview of Robert Harris where he said that this is the most important thing to remember as he said he got to a point where 6 people were in a room together and he had no idea why.
You can't force inspiriation, so always carry note books and write a dream diary, I've had so many Ideas in my sleep or when I'm out and about.
Reading is normally the best source of inspiration. I'm sure everyone knows someone who barely reads and bases to much of their characters on films and Games, It's not a problem to base characters on these but when thats all they're based on they tend to turn into 2D cut outs.
On rap music. It's wrong to write of Rap music (or any kind of writing) as bad and there have been some amazing writers in rap.
I doubt anyone will read my ramblings this far but I'll end with a golden rule. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. If you've got writers block, spend your writing time doing something else. Go out wandering, get loaded, meditate play some sports.
All of these are great tips. Though I have managed to get over my block, I just started to read whether it was required for school or just for fun. The results where quite satisfactory. My writing grew more complex and ideas came to me faster. One issue is that here in Canada, even as far south as I am, it gets really dark and chilly at this time of year, which throws me off horribly as I tend to thrive in warm and dry conditions.
I also do a lot of drawing, so usually a character comes to me from a picture or one of my own sketches, which is picking up pace rapidly as well. I also like to only use a character if I can draw them, so I can recreate them however I choose, though this applies to my own as well. Its fun to add a personal touch to a cool character, making them your own.
On the subject of writing them down, I tend to go for the middle ground(as I usually do in most situations) and write down ideas as they come to me so I don't forget the good ones. My previous chronic posting was out of anxiousness and to gauge my progress, but I'm over that now. In fact, Elva's new uber draft is still in my INQ folder and needs some final touches before I post it.