this is something that iv wondered about for a while now,.. what do you do when your main character dies?
I mean, you have put all that time into modelling it, painting it, thinking of a background..
seems a little harsh to never be able to use it in a game again because his face got pulverised by a power fist.. I read a battle report here where 3 out of 5 members of a guys warband were killed.. what do you do in a situation like that?
I put up a similar topic a while ago here (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=569.0). Mine sort of took a different tack, asking why people weren't more prepared to see their characters die.
In summary, if you want a character to survive, have them survive. The dice don't rule your character. They may not be dead, just prevented from taking any further part of the scenario. In the case of some characters, it may actually have been a duplicate!
Alternately, the circumstances surrounding your character's continued life could by mysterious, and the basis of further games!
In most games, having a character out of action I often think as 'unable to take any further part in the game' - this isn't always total unconciousness or death or whatever, but more an inability to function in any way to affect the outcome of the game. You know in action films where a fellow gets show and he clutches his chest on the ground, clearly wounded beyond action but still soldiering on whilst the main protagonist goes to get medical assitance, or to clear the room of bad guys.
Pretty much as Molotov says... the dice don't own my character, so they don't get to make the decisions of when I'll stop using them. Usually I can find an excuse - sheer willpower, the hit wasn't as bad as it looked, they're just unbelievably tough, they got medical attention almost immediately, or other things like that.
I deliberately poke fun at this pseudo-immortality with some of my characters, leaving subtle hints as to why they don't die.
But sometimes I'm not subtle at all - half my reason for writing Jax Lynn (a mutant whose regenerative power is so powerful that she actually comes back from being dead) was to create a character who was genuinely immortal and recognised as so in-universe.
Don't ask me why I find such things funny. There are some things that man was not supposed to know.
As has been said the dice don't decide when my characters die as was perfect illustrated when Necris took a nose dive off a building with close to 30 witnesses
he still lives in a different form but he is still alive a kicking...
As it happens I've retired him from table top play for the time being but he will return eventually (Need a new mini to represent his new role)
Hey, death is a fickle thing. Just look at Marvel Comics. They kill their characters off all the time, and they never stay dead long. I think Charles Xavier has gained and lost the use of his legs about six different times. Clones, alternate realities, divine intervention, body doubles, emergency life support systems, and good old fashioned surgery are some of the many ways you can bring your character back from the edge of death.
Not saying Marvel is something to look up to these days when it comes to storytelling, but hey, they're the masters of the retcon.
In the last campaign I ran, main characters weren't allowed to actually 'die'. If something warranted a main character's actual death, I was prepared to get them as close as possible without just declaring "YOU BE DEAD" regardless of the player's emotional attachment to their avatars. And certainly, they would not be in a very good place afterwards - either requiring some serious hospitalisation, or being captured by the enemy.
Henchmen were allowed to die though, although none did.
yeah i have thought about the whole "body double" thing, but frankly its a bit cheesy, and could be very difficult to tie into certain campaigns.. same with a lot of marvel things- collosus dies, but comes back as a clone with all his memories
I know going out of action is fine, there is a chance of recovery, but im talking about the kind of critical head injuries like a power fist to the face, theres no chance of coming back with no head!
Eh, it's not as bad as it looks...
While this does detract from the narrative side a little, it does let you keep using a character sensibly. We can, after all, assume that inquisitors have access to a number of ways of recovering from any non-fatal injuries.
I have a cup of tea and a biscuit and the world is right again.....
Though taking the example of your powerfist to the face scenario I think a hobnob would definitely be in order.
....
Though (if I'm being serious) I always like the fact that even though you know your characters head got mulched what did everyone else see? It might have looked like that, but really it was just a stunning blow or some such....
' MEDIC MEDIC help the inquisitors head is mashed '
' right hold this bucket while i scoop up his brain ........ ok is that all of it right? off to the table he'le be up in no time'
There is also the old, wait for the current campaigne to end and then just use the same character again ignoring all that took place.
You need to strike the right balance, sometimes Its good to let a PC die just to show that you will.
I did once play a really brutal campaign which had alot of deaths. We were using the power genre rules from the Pangolin Saloon (After armour deductions we multiplied damage by three). Our main Characters stayed away from most of the action understandably and between games we'd build entirely new groups of followers to replace those who were killed, capture or left behind.
If all else fails, just remember that everything you've been told is a lie and assume the death is as well, what more reason do you need?
I've always had the opinion that characters should die, but it shouldn't be just decided by the dice.
The big question when dealing with characters is "how do they deserve to die?" I'm not talking about from the moral point of view but the narrative point. Does the long suffering henchman deserve to die after being left for dead by his mates? Does the cunning villain die after being shot by a cop in mid campaign? Does the old hero die in battle or does he have a couple of years peace before passing on.
If the death is right for the character then let it happen, if not then it was a close call
Quote from: Dexter on August 17, 2010, 01:53:55 AM
Hey, death is a fickle thing. Just look at Marvel Comics. They kill their characters off all the time, and they never stay dead long
This is why I prefer ultimate Marvel, there's still the odd resurrection here and there but they tend to think things through and resurrect only when necessary rather than bringing back characters as cash cows (I'm still waiting for the return of Jean Grey), as such I utterly despise the 'resurrection' of Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne.
Unless the previous paragraph hasn't made my views clear then here they are, Dead is dead. If there is a logical way and reason for them to be brought back then it's okay but otherwise...
Campaign wise the only resurrection I've done has been that of Sgt. Jarrik (who took a un-lucky bolt round to the chest and eventually bled out).
Is Bruce back already? I knew Steve was... worst part was (and I guess this feeds into the topic as well) that resurrection can competely invalidate the cool death scene and results that occured. I mean, Bucky as Cap along side Nick Fury, Thor, and Iron Man waiting to smack down some Skrulls? Excellent. Or how about the single best two issues I've ever read, Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? As a grown man I feel no shame in saying the last 10 pages or so made me leak eye-water a little bit...
So, ignore death if it gets in the way, but if its fitting, keep them dead. Most of my characters either have a particular (possibly unreachable) objective, or are sort of eternal warrior types - dying just isn't their style. Thats my take.
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on August 26, 2010, 11:08:39 PM
Or how about the single best two issues I've ever read, Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? As a grown man I feel no shame in saying the last 10 pages or so made me leak eye-water a little bit...
^I agree 100%, one of the best stories about death in comics
*SPOILERS*
It's basically about how some characters need death as part of their story but are just to good to have a single definitive death. Almost a essay on the subject in the form of a comic. A excellent read.
/SPOILERS
The only other comic I've read that is nearly as good with character deaths is Squadron Supreme. A marvel series featuring their take on the DC heroes. Because it was a one off series they could do whatever they wanted to the characters. If you want to get a idea of how to kill off a hero properly then you should definitely read it (Also if you're a comic fan then you should read it, it is amazing)
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on August 26, 2010, 11:08:39 PM
So, ignore death if it gets in the way, but if its fitting, keep them dead. Most of my characters either have a particular (possibly unreachable) objective, or are sort of eternal warrior types - dying just isn't their style. Thats my take.
I think that's a good description of almost any character in Inquisitor, any character who ends up permanently dead isn't tough enough for the game's setting.
Quote from: Dust King on August 27, 2010, 05:50:37 AM
The only other comic I've read that is nearly as good with character deaths is Squadron Supreme. A marvel series featuring their take on the DC heroes. Because it was a one off series they could do whatever they wanted to the characters. If you want to get a idea of how to kill off a hero properly then you should definitely read it (Also if you're a comic fan then you should read it, it is amazing)
Did you mean the original or the later remake?
Quote from: Jarrik32 on August 28, 2010, 02:27:41 PM
Did you mean the original or the later remake?
Well I was talking about the original because it had a solid ending, I do like the remake but I doubt it'll end as well as it started.
As we havn't started a campaign yet my Namelsee warrior hasn't died yet but as he will never reveal his face it opens up lots of possibilities for situations like it was a bodyguard in discuise. Or simply give him extra bionics every time he dies.
all my PCs have died so far. current PC is being hunted by the majority of a sector for various nasty crimes and wont last another campaign imo.
I like killing off my characters if it suits the narrative. gives their actions more importance. also means i can make a new warband...
If i put a lot of time and work into a characters background, stats and model then i normally play with them until they die and then i go back and say that all the campaigns/scenarios that i play after that happened in his earlier life.
thats exactly what i do. i end up making younger versions of my characters usually!
Gah, all this talking about american comics offends my sensibilities. But, matters of personal taste aside, killing off one's characters is an interesting issue. If I have a character die in a scenario I usually decide for myself, but I do take into account the manner of their death. I can't stand cliche ressurections like 'it was a clone/bodydouble" or some sort of inexplicable magical revival. But I'm okay with a character convalescing in a med-bay bed for some months after taking a 'mortal' injury.
I ran a campaign a year back that was essentially a 'goodbye' for a character I had had running around in various different game systems for six years. Basically he had pretty much run his course as a character and not had a suitable death yet, so I actually planned it - and then changed it at the last moment, since the guy playing him in the campaign convinced me that the old guy deserved to live out his last days in peace rather than die in climactic battle.
Quote from: Dust King on August 26, 2010, 09:14:51 AM
Does the old hero die in battle or does he have a couple of years peace before passing on.
... Possibly refrenced there. Nice going, Dust - you bought Amers a good six more years. But for that campaign I did pretty much establish that any of the heroes who died (and did not have a plot-centric role still to fulfill) would be permadead, regardless of the circumstances. So I had one guy get boltered to pieces in a scenario that turned out to be superflous (the villain's doomsday plot was a dud!) and I had a woman bleed to death from a stomach wound suffered at the hands of some random mooks (though the situation of that - about a kilometer and fifteen minutes from a long awaited family reunion - did make it tragically satisfying).
There have actually been a few characters who have not died in a scenario, but who I have decided to kill off in background stories, to fit the plot or because I really can't see them appearing again in any capacity (though those sometimes retire, instead). But then, I have 60+ models and 100+ characters, so it makes sense that I find the field a little crowded sometimes.
- - - - -
Hm, Running campaigns out of chronological order for a dead character actually sounds like a good idea. I'll keep that one in mind.
-A.
What happens when they die again. In the past?
Ever Play in Cold Blood on the Playstation? The whole thing was meant to be in his memory so when he died he just went, 'oh no, that can't be what happened?'
After reading this thread, I'm now tempted to let a character die and then have an actual funeral for him... Maybe with a star wars type funeral pyre seen,,,, :P I may build a funeral pyre now for use in games, be a good plot hook to interrupt a funeral
Search the body for important clues and offend the Ecclesiarchy at the same time? Sounds like a plan . . .
During a game we played recently a character died, but I had an awesome idea to keep him alive.
A complex mechanism calculates chance of success when a ballistic approachs the character. If it calculates the chance of success as being 0 it immediately activates a stasis mechanism.
For our game we just made it that the stasis had frozen him just as the bullet entered his head (so that later on, on the ship, machines could remove it with minimal damage), but for other games it might be a good idea to use the rules for a stasis grenade on the character; and when it runs out, he dies. Obviously it can only be used for bullets, not close combat hits and only if the hit would kill him outright...
Hmm, that is an interesting idea.
There's also the option for something with a slightly less intricate "trigger mechanism" though. Some device that if it reads the character's life signs (heart rate, breathing, brain function, etc ) as critical, then it activates a stasis mechanism - hopefully preserving the character until medical help arrives.
Of course, stasis mechanisms are temperamental technology, so it would only protect the character from death for so long - a few hours maybe, but that's a lot longer for help to arrive than without.
It strikes me that a similar principle applies to the Sus-an Membrane in Space Marines, allowing a Space Marine to enter a cryptobiotic state (at least, I think cryptobiosis is the right term) if they suffer major injury or trauma.
There must be a few Inquisitors out there who have tried to utilise similar technologies - whether it would work (be it well, or disastrously) is another matter.