What's the most Gratuitous abuse you have seen of the Rules' lassiez faire attitude to fair play? I remember fighting an Acrobatic Blood Angel Death Company with a Conversion Field. Anyone top that?
I know someone who uses the overwatch rules for his (high speed, high Initiative) sniper in the most annoying fashion, he will make his first two actions either aim or shoot, and his final two actions will always be overwatching the character he has just shot, so he can take another shot either at the end of the turn (thus effectively giving him a free shot right before he takes his turn again) or right before the character he is overwatching takes his turn. Overwatch was never meant to be used in this way, dammit!
Both of those are total GM failure. With a good GM who actually follows the spirit of the game, then anything like this should be nipped in the bud immediately.
If someone turned up a table I was running doing either of the above, I'd tell them in no uncertain terms to take a hike.
"Oh, your sniper is doing that overwatch thing again? By the way, did I mention that this area is notoriously prone to clear sky lightning?"
Inquisitor isn't about perfectly balanced play, but it is about enjoyable and sensible play. It's technically the GM's game, and he - or perhaps she, if you're lucky - is supposed to decide the characters (if they let you use your own completely unmodified, then they're doing you a privilege) and the rules.
They're also supposed to encourage interesting and punish uncharacterful play - I'd happily bend or ignore a rule for the sake of it doing something entertaining, but trying to use a rule outside of the spirit of it (but technically inside the letter of it) for the sake of winning, then you can get bent.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on August 01, 2009, 06:46:33 PM
If someone turned up a table I was running doing either of the above, I'd tell them in no uncertain terms to take a hike.
"Oh, your sniper is doing that overwatch thing again? By the way, did I mention that this area is notoriously prone to clear sky lightning?"
i had a squad of 5 Wraithguard (with a warlock to guide them) who would appear and have an agenda, a great need for the survival of the Eldar Race .. that often required overpowered characters to die horribly.
Now that sounds like a plan.
Fortunately, I'm not in the position where I have to deal out that kind of harshness on my regular players (they're a very reasonable bunch who couldn't give a toss about "winning"), so for the few occasions I deal with people who do have the wrong end of the stick, "vengeful weather effects" is a more cost effective method.
I really have to use that idea more - I'm a regular GM (and by regular, I mean EVERY SINGLE GAME for the past 5 years!) so I tend to go fairly easy on my regulars, which often leads to flagrant abuse of the rules. Having looked the 'overwatch' rule up, however, I must have completely misread it the first time round, as I understood overwatch as being able to aim at a certain area, and taking an aimed shot whenever you pleased during that turn. As it happens, you can only overwatch an area without an enemy in it, and if you take a shot, you don't get any aim bonuses. Result! I can't wait to dash that acursed sniper's tactics to the ground by quoting rules - something he has a habit of doing with annoying frequency whenever it involves his characters dying.
Quote from: RobSkib on August 02, 2009, 12:45:11 AM... by quoting rules - something he has a habit of doing with annoying frequency whenever it involves his characters dying.
Actually, players quoting the rules in Inq is of little use. "GM's decision is final" has that side-effect.
Anyway, Inquisitor's rules are scarcely more than guidelines - not that I recommend being too lax with them. The players do need to feel that they're playing a game with some structure.
QuoteI'm a regular GM (and by regular, I mean EVERY SINGLE GAME for the past 5 years!)
Ouch. I enjoy GMing, but it's not something I'd want to have to do every single time.
Yeah, everyone else sucks too much to GM, and although I do enjoy it, it's difficult to command authority to people that you see every day. Still, I'm going to enjoy pissing on his sniper parade, however :P
Also, a character with a high BS and deadeye shot (providing they aim and get a placed shot, of course) can always hit either the head or the groin. Now, you can't say it's particularly out of character for a sniper to shoot someone in the head, but shooting them in the groin because they'd rather not shoot an arm or a leg raises some eyebrows. It's not exactly characterful, the noble sniper who shoots people in the butt when they're backs are turned. Bah. This thread is just turning into a Grumpy Old Inquisitor thread, and damn right! Too many new kids these days running around punching each other in the groin... grumble...
I shot a Space Marine in the groin once. he came back the next session with a bionic groin.
I have a regular player in my gaming club whose Inquisitor is totally over-armoured. A lot of players, when first encountering the character, have complained about it. But I allow it happily for two reasons: first, the model has been extensively converted to represent the massive amount of armour; and second, the character has a long and inglorious history of being shot repeatedly in the head, so it stands to reason that he would learn from his earlier mistakes!
R.
Quote from: RobSkib on August 02, 2009, 12:43:05 PMAlso, a character with a high BS and deadeye shot (providing they aim and get a placed shot, of course) can always hit either the head or the groin.
If someone has scored a placed shot, I make them call their intended hit location before they roll for location, and for better or worse, the modifiers will always be applied to move them towards that pre-chosen location, whether or not they're capable of hitting said location, or would have preferred to hit their rolled location.
For one thing, it makes most sense, and for a second, it keeps play fair.
I've got quite a few of these house rules. Some people would probably find me quite a harsh GM, but I'm really more "tough but fair".
If you're playing reasonably, then what I do will hardly bother you. If you're playing unfair, then you'll start to hit these things.
That said, talking about overwatch, I
DO have a twist on the rules called "Freeze!" - Basically, you call a "Freeze!" action, and you're allowed to say: "My character will shoot if X happens OR if Y doesn't happen." (Within in-game universe conditions. "About to start his turn" is not acceptable. It's called Freeze, because that's more or less that I first wrote it for - Surrendering, or "stand-offs".)
Quite commonly tied to combined talking actions ("Stop, or I shoot"), but there's no demand for what the character says to be the same conditions as what they will actually shoot under.
Here, you almost exclusively do it towards a target in sight. If the conditions are met, then the character fires, almost as if on overwatch (levels of aim ARE allowed, provided the target is in sight). Basically, it's an offset shooting action in much the same way as overwatch. Instead of shooting in the Freeze action, you put that action aside for later in the turn, for if a set of conditions are met.
This kind of thing helps make character actions feel more simultaneous, rather than sequential.
Quote from: Gnaeus ConlitorI shot a Space Marine in the groin once. he came back the next session with a bionic groin.
Ah, the wonders of Imperial Medical science.
Didn't see this myself, but a local Redshirt described a game where he 1) fielded a Devastator Squad (yes, squad) and 2) one of those dragged himself, his unconscious sergeant and his rocket launcher (which was in a hand, not stowed) up a ladder... I didn't say anything (it seemed rude) but my thought was "Not if I were your GM..."
@DapperAnarchist: You know, I think that's a winner.
But I do have to wonder what the GM was smoking to agree to that. I guess they must just have been as ill-educated to the point of the game as the sod who brought the squad.
Frankly, the fact that the game was deadly enough to result in what sounds like a humiliating withdrawal for the Space Marines is enough to make me forgive him on that one.
R.
Either that, or it makes you ask what horrific monstrosities the other players brought to the table...
If I recall - the Sergeant wasn't wearing his helmet and got hit by a lucky shot, and the Rocket guy was moving him out of the way and seeking a better firing position. But yeah, a lot of the local GW staff seem to see Inquisitor as a way to have grudge matches where Space Marines and Officio Assassins can sweep all before them...
I just had a bad group when I used to go down to the local GW (now closed) for veterans night. The Acrobatic Death Company with a Conversion field was pretty awful but the worst offender was Mintoe. For some reason you had to inflict 5 times his toughness in damage to kill him among other things that made the only sure fire way of killing him chucking him out of an airlock. As Mintoe was a GM character we had no scenarios in space. The worst thing about it was the way I had to twink my characters to keep up with them. I made a lot of conversions which are now too badass to be used in a sensible game such as my Malican conversion with a Multimelta on his back.
Quote from: Gnaeus Conlitor....that made the only sure fire way of killing him chucking him out of an airlock.
I'll admit, I have a current character who's a little like that, but it's more a case of "Killing him
permanently". He's a mutant of fairly generous regenerative capacity and he's come back from medically dead on at least three occasions.
In game, he can still be killed (although his regeneration skill won't make it hugely easy to do so), but he will eventually come back -
after the game however, because such results are deemed "Beyond rapid regeneration". Still, there aren't a huge number of ways to keep him reliably dead.
But he's hardly an unfair character. Other than being highly resilient, he's pretty average and isn't particularly skilled or dangerous.
Backstory-wise, he spent a lot of his life as a bodyguard to a wealthy criminal, who was acceptant of his mutation, and who had a lot of use for his regeneration.
QuoteBut he's hardly an unfair character.
On the contrary. In "capture alive" scenarios (which are, let's be honest, pretty common*), he's a very fair character because opponents can do what they like to him and still be confident that he'll be breathing when they interrogate him.
*Point for aspirant GMs: Capture Alive Scenarios (CAS) are a great way to moderate overblown warbands** as it means that using those multimeltas, heavy bolters, power halberds and suchlike becomes very risky. And up-armoured characters are much easier to merely stun with weight of fire, thanks to their armoured protection.
Not dying, in INQ, isn't always the best idea.
**I still hate this word in INQ.
R.
Quote from: precinctomega on August 04, 2009, 08:25:05 AMwarbands ... I still hate this word in INQ.
Which is why I call them 'retinues' or 'groups' or even 'units'.
Quote from: Gideon Sterne on August 04, 2009, 08:44:12 AM
Quote from: precinctomega on August 04, 2009, 08:25:05 AMwarbands ... I still hate this word in INQ.
Which is why I call them 'retinues' or 'groups' or even 'units'.
You know, you guys are right. I'm going to stop using 'warband' too. It casts completely the wrong idea.
I haven't seen too much by way of 'abuse' in games, and hopefully that's a testament to good GMing. I'm known to be stingy with power, though, and have helped to design most of the characters that appear, and those I haven't had a hand in seem to be fine anyhow. In my experience, most overpowering happens with newbies who try to convert 40k rules (where, for example, a laspistol is only good for lighting cigarettes) to inquisitor. The only space marines we've ever had tromping the field were back in IQ 28 days.
There have been a few occasions, such as a guy with a hellgun firing into a duel between the two big close-combat fighters on the field, which was a bit of a shame but which I let happen 'cause the combat was just so damn drawn out. In the future though, I wouldn't allow it. On the whole, our group is pretty good (maybe 'cause it's so small, damn New Zealand) - surprising since on of us is infamous for, in warhammer 40k, managing to 'draw line of sight' - bending the tape measure in a narc around the great big obstruction between him and the target.
-Aidan.
?? I would have to say me with a flamer or Auto gun on semi
one will burn them the other punches holes in a meat sack ;D
Quote from: precinctomega on August 04, 2009, 08:25:05 AMIn "capture alive" scenarios, he's a very fair character because opponents can do what they like to him and still be confident that he'll be breathing when they interrogate him.
Actually, that brings up another point I've been mulling over. Interrogating him would be interesting. Physical torture would be of limited use , as he has little reason to fear pain - but then again, you don't really ever have to worry about (permanently) killing him as a result of what you're doing.
Unless you decapitate, cremate, liquidise, starve or persistently suffocate him, you can keep trying again, and again, and again...
Serious implications. In many ways, the fact he can't die (of most things) is a real double-edged sword.
He wouldn't have immunity to psychic interrogation though.
Actually, I should note that he doesn't wear armour - what point in there in hindering yourself with that weight if you don't need to? On a similar point, he has the Nerves of Steel skill, and justifiably so.
QuoteWarbands - I still hate this word in INQ.
I often steer away from it myself. I use "entourage" reasonably frequently.
The most abusive thing I've ever encountered was isn't really that much. When I gave a daemon hunting character to a new player, I told him he should not really use the psycannon, as bullets were so hard to replace, and stick to his side arm, but he disregarded that and used it with reckless abandon. I learned to limit the ammo on it much more severly.
QuotePhysical torture would be of limited use , as he has little reason to fear pain
Just because he needn't fear death it dosn't mean he is indifferent to pain. My sister would break is you tickled her, but not because she thinks it would be fatal.
"Retinue", "Staff" and "Entourage" make sense only in the context of "and". I.e. "Inquisitor X and his..."
"Group" and "band" are too pop music. Unit, too military. Squad, too 40k. Gang, too Necromunda.
Not that I have a distinctive answer. I tend to give specific groups their own codename. "Team 6" is a well-known example. It doesn't matter who's leading them or attached to them: they're all "Team 6".
Then I have Xerxes (Enobarbus), Sinister (Cleops) and Tormentor (Braman). These don't describe an inquisitor and his retinue, but rather a specific combination of characters. If I use a different combination, they get a different codename.
R.
Quote from: Inquisitor Cade on August 05, 2009, 10:45:42 AMJust because he needn't fear death it doesn't mean he is indifferent to pain.
No, the two are not necessarily mutually inclusive. However, he IS that way. Many years of regular and ultimately inconsequential injury have left him acclimatised to pain to the extent that it now means little to him.
Indeed, the two things appear as separate traits on his profile: "Nigh Indestructible" (the supercharging of his Regeneration) and "Pain is Nothing" (his indifference to pain).
Quote from: Aidan on August 05, 2009, 12:13:26 AM
surprising since on of us is infamous for, in warhammer 40k, managing to 'draw line of sight' - bending the tape measure in an arc around the great big obstruction between him and the target.
-Aidan.
Ahh I remember that, it wasn't so much the bending of the tape as the couple of minutes spent arguing about it (good times)
Also I quite like the sound of 'crew', it's a bit more informal than the others.
Quote from: Dust King on August 10, 2009, 04:41:52 AM
Quote from: Aidan on August 05, 2009, 12:13:26 AM
surprising since on of us is infamous for, in warhammer 40k, managing to 'draw line of sight' - bending the tape measure in an arc around the great big obstruction between him and the target.
-Aidan.
Ahh I remember that, it wasn't so much the bending of the tape as the couple of minutes spent arguing about it (good times)
Also I quite like the sound of 'crew', it's a bit more informal than the others.
No love for posse? Company seems right, eh? After all, it's some chap "accompanied" by some "companions"....generally. Ah well...evil characters/whatever are easier to name. From eldar pirates to chaotic cults, all you need is something melodramatic proceeded by a definate article. In games with only one inquisitor, you could always have some acolyte proclaime, "Rejoice! Your troubles are ended! The Inquisition is arrived!"
Since, for that particular game at least, that one character represents the the Emperor's Will incarnate.
The Firm?
R.
Quote from: precinctomega on September 09, 2009, 04:08:35 PM
The Firm?
R.
That implies two men who talk like this....
'Mr Rope, is 'e talking about us?'
'I think not, Mr Liche. A shame, perhaps. We are noted for our talents for... ahem, well, let's just say "pest control", eh?'
'You mean all them murders?'
'Indeed I did, Mr Liche. And, of course, that unfortunate business with the aardvark.'
"Is 'e ---ing talking about us, Mr Pin?"
"Unlikely, Mr Tulip. No one else knows about the aardvark."
R.
Well, it may also be Croup and Vandemar, Burke and Hare, Kidd and Wint....
lol anyway,
the last game i GM'd was a disaster!!!!
My gamers (all swedes that take power gaming too seriously if you ask me) brought
3 space marines, 2 eldar farseers and a rather nasty Daemon.
So yes, my gamers think that a good INQ game includes the 7 foot nigh killable beasties that jump from buildings and crush the lithe eldar thing below them, and 20 foot daemonic beasties that can take a mans head from his shoulders with but a glance!
so yeah ive got a power group that im leaving, as theyve all gone into DnD now.
kerby
Quote from: psycho on September 10, 2009, 05:27:33 PM...3 space marines, 2 eldar farseers and a rather nasty Daemon. So yes, my gamers think that a good INQ game includes the 7 foot nigh killable beasties that jump from buildings and crush the lithe eldar thing below them, and 20 foot daemonic beasties that can take a mans head from his shoulders with but a glance!
so yeah ive got a power group that im leaving, as theyve all gone into DnD now.
kerby
If anything, they deserve eachother :P
Hm. D&D will clearly suit their munchkin tendencies.
In fact, now that I think about it, borrowing the RPG term "munchkin" is highly appropriate for this sort of gamer.
R.
Yes! Munchkin is the perfect name for this sort of power gamer, I think this should become the semi-official (or depending on IQ2.0 official ;) ) term for these types. :D
i GM`d such a group of munchkins too >:(
they ruined nearly every game.
they made things like:
3 space marines fulfilling mission objectives in one round (they took 3-4 sprint actions and one charge action on the objetive with every single marine). i just allowed the marines because they promised that they are just for backup, filthy liars!
next mission, they startet killing every NPC on the table just because one of them had to be the villian. they were all just workers and other civilians! we played a scenario like the one out of "heavenfall" with the crazy vindicare, he haden`t even startet firing!
after the second evening i stoped playing with them and paused GMing for nearly one year before i built up another group.
Quote from: phil-o-mat on September 12, 2009, 10:05:17 AM
startet killing every NPC on the table just because one of them had to be the villian.
I actually think that this is quite in-character for marines... But when a guy says that the uber-powerful character of uber-death is "just for backup," I would probably start to become very sceptical.
"Okay, who is he backing up?"
"The other two marines."
"Oooookay... Did I mention that the villain is working on behalf of a radical ordo astartes inquisitor, and his master has gifted him with a needle rifle loaded with X3? (one of my own creations, basically it's an inverse-toughness test toxin that causes massive damage to high-toughness characters. Space marines die (not unconscious... Die.) in 1-3 turns after initial infection.)"
Alternatively, set up 4-5 very heavy weapon emplacements along with a smattering of NPC goons around a shanty-town, which the characters must sneak/talk/bargain their way into to gain access to a particular informant/relic/waffle, then say: "This planet has turned away from the light of the emperor. Here, his word and glory are a distant and dying light. Your characters will have to be cautious. Any character identified as being an agent of the emperor will be fired upon on sight. Space marine players, with their distinctive power armour, would find it very hard to hide and would be very easily recognised, which would thus result in them being fired upon, and they would be so bogged down with fighting the enemy that the wily human player sneaks through all the commotion and steals the relic/informant/special bagel away. Or perhaps the informant flees when he hears the gunfire, or perhaps the relic is smashed by the bad guys, as they know that with the astartes coming at them, there's no way that they can win, and they decide to make sure that the relic doesn't fall into the wrong hands.
Or, you could go for the old favourite of rope-bridges and sewer tunnels, which only light/small characters can traverse safely.
Although such players are a problem, a GM should always take steps to ensure that playing such characters isn't quite as much of an advantage as some players might seem to think.