This is really the planning stage of what will be a fairly large and long project. 7 models, each with a unique deamon bound sword. I took the name and vague idea from Naruto (Anime for those not aquainted with the title), in Naruto there are 7 blades given to only the best swordsmen of the mist village.
My idea is that each sword will personify one of the 7 deadly sins, and each sword will have a single deamonic ability. I'm also tempted to have the sword control the user, which would create an interesting story one user is killed the oppenent picks up his enemy's weapon only to become its new host. However thats only a idea atm.
The idea behind them will be that they are a small cult, chaos undivided, dedicated to summoning deamons or setting up cults on various worlds, the player can only field 3 of the 7 swordsmen in any game. Which models depends on dice roles or previous story developments.
Each model will (hopefully) give a rough sense of its host giving into the relevent sin.
I'm still in the process of selecting models but what i really need are swords... either interesting shapes or somewhere I can get a multipack.
Hmm - a cool concept, but it has the problem that the concept of the seven deadly sins is a strictly Christian notion. To base swords specifically around those "sins" would imply that Christianity (a religion no longer part of their universe) was somehow still relevant.
More appropriate would be eight swords to relate to the points of the Chaos star. You can still use the deadly sins as a starting point - there have been several different lists of said sins, so pick eight concepts from amongst them.
QuoteThe idea behind them will be that they are a small cult, chaos undivided
That seems a bit of a waste. While I might make the cult as a whole "Undivided", it seems that many of the sins gravitate quite nicely to specific gods. So, I'd suggest making the swords themselves aligned (either four aligned and four unaligned, or all eight aligned), their wielders dedicating themselves to particular aspects of Chaos, and only worshipping the pantheon between them.
If someone can provide me with 7 sins of the imperium i'd gladly use them, 7 has always been a mystic number in human society, odd numbers are almost always bad and even numbers usually good. So i'm going to stick to having 7 members of the group, however theres almost always someone in the background running things so maybe he can have the 8th sword...
And i think your right, the cult on the whole would be chaos undivided, with the indiduals being aligned to which ever Chaos god their sword was alligned with.
The 7 sins are usually, Lust, Greed, Gluttony, Pride, Envy, Sloth and Wrath. There are variations which replace Wrath with anger, Envy with jealousy, and Pride with Vanity, different words for the same sin, i did find one (wiki) which listed Dispair as a sub sin of Sloth, so perhaps that could be my 8th sin... though perhaps curiosity/knowledge is a more 40k sin lol
I really like this idea, though alot of it put images of ring wraiths in my mind.
Personally, I wouldn't have them as PC's I think they'd work best GM controlled and making only very brief appearences acting mostly through there minions. I like the idea of the holder of the sword being controlled by it and of a character defeating one of them and starting to become them, it would make an intresting hook if one of the players was slowly becoming possessed and trying to fight it and at the same time gaining more and more information about this cult.
I was under the impression the seven deadly sins had it's roots in Judaism and Islam as well as christianity and could well continue beyond them.
Did a little more research into the number 7 just to prove that humanity seems obsessed by that number. 7 sins, 7 colours of the rainbow, 7 articals of faith in Islam, 7 chakra wheels in Hinduism and Buddhism, 7 days of the week, the moon changes its phase every 7 days, and if you add the opposite sides of a regular 4 sided dice the number is 7. So i'm sticking to the number 7, something that runs that deep in our heads can be safely assumed to carry over into 40k.
Whilst I tend to wince at any concept inspired by an anime, I can see this idea having depth if given the right attention.
The Imperial Cult, in real terms, isn't a religion but rather a satire: an opportunity to lampoon the trappings of organized religion in all forms. Mitres are supposed to represent the shape of the tongues of flame that rested on the heads of the Apostles on the first Pentecost, but that doesn't stop them looking mad and cool in the Dark Millennium.
Seven Swords of Seven Sins? Brilliant! They even align well with the powers of Chaos: wrath for Khorne, lust and envy for Slaanesh; pride and greed for Tzeentch and sloth and gluttony for Nurgle.
R.
I'd be more convinced by the number seven if you could come up with a list showing it's significance in the 41st millenium. A quick Google search throws up plenty of hits for the number eight in different cultures through the years. Not that I have anything against there being seven of them - it's just your reasoning I disagree with.
If you wanted to have them aligned to a particular god, the seven is the sacred number of Nurgle. But I think them being undivided is better, with maybe one from each of the major powers and the others either worshipping Chaos as a whole or some of the minor powers.
Do you have ideas for models? Getting swords should be easy - plenty of 28mm models have large swords that could be used.
My only other concern is in making them sufficiently different as you could easily end up with a rather samey single archetype warband. It'll take some effort to make them look and play very differently from each other.
well there are at least 4 that I can think of off the top of my head
(http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/daemons_souldgrinder_sword_large.jpg?osCsid=2b3c896d9fff7565eed17a6a2421435f)
(http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/daemons_daemon_prince_sword_1_large.jpg?osCsid=2b3c896d9fff7565eed17a6a2421435f)
(http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/daemons_daemon_prince_sword_2_large.jpg?osCsid=2b3c896d9fff7565eed17a6a2421435f)
(http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/eldar_wraithlord_hand_sword_large.jpg?osCsid=2b3c896d9fff7565eed17a6a2421435f)
The Hive Tyrant's sword is also a good one to use
Quote from: Nevermore2010 on March 03, 2011, 02:26:50 AM
The 7 sins are usually, Lust, Greed, Gluttony, Pride, Envy, Sloth and Wrath. There are variations which replace Wrath with anger, Envy with jealousy, and Pride with Vanity, different words for the same sin, i did find one (wiki) which listed Dispair as a sub sin of Sloth, so perhaps that could be my 8th sin... though perhaps curiosity/knowledge is a more 40k sin lol
As I recall, greed and gluttony were both covered by 'greed' in the original draft of the seven deadly sins way back in the 4th century AD. Instead there was a sin called "Avarice", which is essentially the sin of being apathetic, and has some crossover with greed. In fact, the first draft of the deadly sins was the "eight evil thoughts", written by a Greek scholar whose name currently eludes me, and didn't become 'deadly' sins' until much later.
So I suppose, if you were looking to have eight sins, you could always bring Avarice / Apathy back into it.
I rather like the idea of knowledge or curiosity being regarded as a deadly sin by some Imperial cult. That seems to bring a much more 40k flavour to the idea. If you do want to stick to seven then I'd combine greed and gluttony, and add curiosity.
Quote from: Morcus on March 03, 2011, 04:04:58 AMI was under the impression the seven deadly sins had it's roots in Judaism and Islam as well as christianity and could well continue beyond them.
While there is a list of "six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him" in Proverbs 6:16-19 and thus shared by most Abrahamic religions, this list bears little resemblance to those traditionally thought to be "the seven deadly sins".
If you trace them back to their origin, there were originally a list of
eight, written by the 4th century Christian monk Evagrius Ponticus (This being the Greek Scholar Ynek talks about). As such, the list is Christian, not Abrahamic in origin.
Quote from: Nevermore2010 on March 03, 2011, 05:14:13 AMDid a little more research into the number 7 just to prove that humanity seems obsessed by that number.
Current religions having grafted some mystical significance to number 7 does not prove that it is somehow special to Chaos, where the mystical answer has long been said to be 8.
However, if you want seven swordsmen, then there is always the possibility that there were originally a set of eight swords, but thus far, the eighth has been lost and they have yet to find it.
Or, perhaps more interestingly, the eighth sword was a Tzeentchian sword and gave its wielder an entirely separate agenda, leaving the sacred circle of eight. Now the remaining seven seek the traitor.
Either of those could provide an overarching drive for the group.
Sounds like an interesting concept, although I agree with the others that eight is the number more usually associated with Chaos Undivided, so perhaps there could be some sort of symbolic eighth 'place' in their cult/team/squad/whatever deliberately left empty to represent the eighth point on the Chaotic star, or maybe they have an eighth sword with no weilder, or which no-one is alowed to use, or something like that?
Still, I'll definately be keeping an eye on this to see how it develops!
Also, I'm reasonably sure that 'avarice' is not apathy, but the coveting of material wealth and, as such, could be considered a synonym for 'greed' or, indeed 'covetousness'.
another way to have 8 swords would be if two of the group had fought each other, with one being killed/banished/etc, leaving one of the remaining seven with two swords and taking control of the group as a whole.
Quote from: Heroka Vendile on March 03, 2011, 01:56:34 PM
another way to have 8 swords would be if two of the group had fought each other, with one being killed/banished/etc, leaving one of the remaining seven with two swords and taking control of the group as a whole.
Sword of Malal ?
Malal, being born of the human emotions of hatred and fear (hence why he hates all other chaos so much), doesn't really fit in with any of the seven deadly sins. Wrath is a more knornate trait, whilst Malal's hatred is a far more gut-deep, cold headed hatred that I like to think of as being a more calculated, utmost loathing rather than the frothing-mouthed rage of Khorne.
Therefore, in my humble opinion, it might be difficult to find a place for Malal within the seven deadly sins. However, we could always assume that Malal's swordsman champion was the one who LOST the fight with his rival, thus, whoever beat the Malal swordsman now carries the sword of Malal.
This could be an interesting plot hook, as the sword of Malal would probably have daemon-banishing powers, making it very difficult for any of the other daemonblades to share a weilder-host with. So perhaps they carry it around in a sheath, never daring to touch it, lest they lose control of their weilder-host (albeit temporarily). They would also have to guard it against others who might dare to touch it, lest Malal attain a new champion with which to challenge the circle.
Or perhaps there was some sort of cataclysmic event which separated the blade of Malal from the others. For instance, a furnace exploded or something, killing all of the sword-weilders. The tzeenchian sword was later picked up by a passing child, who then carried away the other blades (perhaps swathing them in cloth to prevent himself from having to share his newly acquired childhost), leaving the blade of Malal behind for his own tzeenchian purposes which are beyond human ability to understand. Now, the majority of the circle of daemonswords wants to track down the blade of Malal, but the tzeenchian daemon has been pulling strings from within the group to subvert their efforts.
Perhaps the blades are only 'conscious' if they have a weilder, and thus, the other six blades have no knowledge of the tzeenchian daemon's plan....
It's just a suggestion, as to how to include an eighth blade to make the number synonymous with chaos, and still only have seven in the group. The only hurdle in this suggestion is that there's still no real 'deadly sin' which is relevant for Malal....
Malal is the god of self destruction the embodiment of Chaos' self destructive nature.
"Malal embodies the self-destructive aspect of Chaos turned upon itself. Even following Malal is an act of self-destruction, for the relationship between follower and patron is parasitical - servitude draining the very soul of the devotee until it withers away. Few would choose to follow such a god, certainly not for any promise of power."
The very nature of a sword of Malal would be to grant the wielder great power to visit the destruction of chaos upon it's enemies while it drains the life force from the wielder much akin to a suicide clock the use of a sword of malal would be a last resort finite thing
There is also the issue of Malal wanting only the destruction of all the other Chaos Gods so would naturally try and kill the others
Think i'm gonna keep to the 7 deadly sins theme for the 7 wielded blades, the 8th blade i think should have been broken into peices, each segment containing a tiny fragment of the deamon. The 7 swordsmen, or rarther the deamons within can only be free'd from their imprisonment inside the blades if all 8 are brought together with hosts.
Perhaps a rouge inquisitor in the distant past who once was a host (until his own will was able to beat the deamons) broke his sword into fragments and scatered them across the imperium. I think my 8th sin will be Vengence, that way there will be 2 swords to each faction of Chaos. I think its safe to say the sword our hypothetical inquisitor fell prey to was the Pride Sword.
As much as I want to 40k the sins, I honestly think they are the aspects that Chaos feeds upon, so adding Knowledge and Curiosity (which i can Totally see the imperium viewing as bad) doesnt really feel like it ties into something the deamons can feed upon/control you by.
Here are my first choice of models:
Wrath
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/aclark75/7%20Swordsmen/Wrath.jpg)
Vengence
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/aclark75/7%20Swordsmen/Vengance.jpg)
Sloth
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/aclark75/7%20Swordsmen/Sloth.jpg)
Lust
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/aclark75/7%20Swordsmen/Lust.jpg)
Greed
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/aclark75/7%20Swordsmen/Greed.jpg)
Envy
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/aclark75/7%20Swordsmen/Envy.jpg)
Still looking for a suitable Gluttony model... would have to be large, possibly even Fat, but without looking slow... any suggestions? Also thinking of switching the Greed and Envy models... or finding somthing more suitable for Envy...
Some Nice models, but personally, I would look for a sexy female to be the Slaaneshi Lust, Just a thought.
Something like a fat butcher might work for Gluttony, with a oversized cleaver???
That's a nice set of models you've chosen, but I don't really see how they fit the sins. Maybe you could talk us through how you plan to 40k-ify and convert them to embody each sin?
Have you found suitable swords to represent each sin?
I also disagree with your assessment of curiosity/knowledge - such things fall into the province of Tzeentch and are most definitely things with which he can influence and corrupt mortals.
i like the idea of a daemon sword with domain over a specific thing the ability to feed a persons anger, greed, lust and pride. Taking after the god that closest resembles the sin they represent, I feel the key here is the sword the sword needs to represent gluttony could have loads of mouths sculpted onto it etc etc. The Swordsmen i think you need to represent the characters all of them at different points in there possession but the key is the sword it needs to closely represent the sin and you need to look at it and go that sword is gluttony that one is wroth that one is sloth
I'd look at the key features of each god
I've been thinking of having a NPC / PC chaos guy possessed of a Tzeentch daemon but instead of having the blade filled with all sorts of powers I was intending on the host expressing the powers and some form of mutation while the sword itself remains fairly mundane it is the power it allows the host the weild which is the true boon.
I agree with Kaled, the models are rather nice, but dont really seem to fit with the sins yet. Plus if we're going down the pseudo-Christian route and need a reason for making knowledge a son you need look know further than Adam and Eve. The tree of Knowledge led to their casting out of Eden after all!
Thats given me a cool idea a sword made of wood with like a wooden texture as if it had been carved from the tree of knowledge (kind of apt since paper can be made from trees and books are the greatest source of knowledge in the 41st millennium). whoever has the sword should slowly go mad (assuming the sword contains all knowledge that is known and to be known) as it would be entirely impossible for someone to understand that knowledge, What if the sword is in the hands of someone from Baal but is currently spouting lost knowledge of the eldar if it was constantly whispering to you in eldar you would go mad
I may be running a little late for this conversation, but I'm going to urge you in the strongest terms to reconsider using a Christian based "7 deadly sins" theme. It's a great concept, but you're appropriating things that are already canonically established. The chaos gods have their own sacred numbers already and 7 belongs to Nurgle. While there's nothing inherently wrong with has 7 swordsmen I would argue that having a specific numerological attachment via Chaos to that number would require an adherence to establish canon which is:
Slaanesh - 6
Nurgle - 7
Khorne - 8
Tzeentch - 9
You could get more mileage out of this idea in a number of ways. Have them be a Khornate cult devoted to 8 aspects of Khorne (Murder, Wrath, Mutilation, Slaughter, Bloodlust, Execution, Vengeance and Smithing). I made those up in about 30 seconds. I may have run out of steam towards the end, but that idea can be applied to any of the chaos gods and their sacred numbers.
If you wanted to include every power you could say that the bound daemons were servants of each god who formed an alliance to overthrow their masters but were laid low. That also gives them focus and personality (what fun is a warband without an agenda?).
What would be the most fun in my opinion would be to create a minor pantheon of chaos powers perhaps even tied to a region in space (a minor warp entity could have been born due to an Exterminatus perhaps and they believe they can fully manifest somewhere on that planet). Create your own entities that work within the framework of the established mythology, feel free to use the 7 Deadly sins as inspiration but don't port them so directly.
This is a great concept, but as proposed I feel that it's the equivalent of saying, "I've got a great idea for an imperial cult that devotes itself to the Emperor. They are led by a space Pope who is the direct mortal line to the Emperor's words and they reside on Mars." Interesting concept, but it steps all over what's already been established rather than meshing with it.
Since this is the modeling forum, I'll also say that the models look great but I don't think the sloth one is very representative of said sin. I do find the idea of a Sloth entity being created at the peak of couch potato culture though...