The Conclave

The Ordos Majoris - Hobby, Painting and Modelling => The Dark Millennium => Topic started by: Molotov on April 26, 2011, 06:36:17 PM

Title: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Molotov on April 26, 2011, 06:36:17 PM
Interesting blog article here by Andy Hoare, who created the Ordo Chronos for FFG: link (http://andyhoare.blogspot.com/2011/02/existential-cogitations-on.html).

Also, he postulates the existence of an "Ordo Redactor", working in a similar role to Marco's "Ordo Perditus".

Interesting reading, hope you enjoy it too.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: DapperAnarchist on April 26, 2011, 06:58:49 PM
Just because its called Ordo Reductor in the Calixian Sector doesn't mean its Ordo Reductor everywhere :D I've been tempted to make a character who gets into all sorts of trouble because his seal says "Inquisitor of the Ordo Traitorii", which is one out-of-the-way Conclave's version of the Ordo Hereticus, but some Puritans think either 1) it must mean Traitor Inquisitors, or 2) that its a breach of the rules in some technical way...

But that is an interesting one indeed. I disagree that Sicarius and Sepulturum aren't relevant - the Sicarius is separate to keep its secrets, being the most secretive of the lot (usually) and Sepulturum isn't just Plague Zombies, but disease of all kinds...
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Shannow on April 26, 2011, 07:05:00 PM
Thanks for the link :) great read and definitely something that has gone on my to do list,,, 1,210 and counting......
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 26, 2011, 08:02:36 PM
Certainly interesting.

I do partially agree with his "Well, why isn't this within the jurisdiction of Ordo X?" issue - which is why Katlien Vance was written as part of the Hereticus, but part of a cabal within that interests itself with the heresy of Inquisitors specifically, as opposed to the original note on the contact card from the Spring Conclave that she was part of an Ordo specifically for overseeing the Inquisition - but not entirely.

An Ordo is simply a large group of individuals which have come together in an organised fashion to pool their resources. If Inquisitors wish to pool together to stop Barney the Dinosaur specifically and call it the Ordo Jurassic, then it will happen.
Why they would wish to be outside the greater power of one of the primary Ordos is another matter, but it's an interesting question.

In many cases, I imagine that the Ordos Minoris are actually often more sub-Ordos than Ordos all of their own. The Inquisitors within doubtless have a spectacular number of ties to the relevant Ordos Majoris that can be called upon as needed.

Also, he postulates the existence of an "Ordo Redactor", working in a similar role to Marco's "Ordo Perditus".
I'm inclined to agree with DapperAnarchist here.

One of the themes I wrote into the Ordo Perditus background was that an Ordo of secrets would be secretive about what they do, because, to quote Inquisitor Byssus: "The amateur hides what a secret holds. The master hides even that there is a secret at all."

With that in mind, it would be very them for the Ordo to have different names in different places.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 27, 2011, 03:31:08 PM
The ordos are, from my point of view too present in the fluff, I would think that most inquisitors would have some affiliations with all of them they know, most wouldn't dedicate themself to only one specific threat but would fight that what threatens the Imperium no matter the guise it takes. I also think that the ordos would mostly be a collection of small, local groups without much ordo-wide interactions.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 27, 2011, 04:06:45 PM
most wouldn't dedicate themself to only one specific threat but would fight that what threatens the Imperium no matter the guise it takes.
The idea that a Hereticus Inquisitor only fights heretics, a Xenos Inquisitor only aliens, etc, is a misconception. Inquisitors can approach whichever threats they please, but they will usually prefer to go after those which fit their speciality - and as there are always multiple threats, there are always choices for which they chase down.

Also, I think you're forgetting the old adage "Jack of all trades, master of none" - specialisation is no surprise.

As an example, you don't get "Generic emergency services" - you have the Police for when someone's breaking into your shed, the Ambulance for when you've fallen off your shed, and the Fire brigade for when your shed is burning down. (They are also known to deal with non-shed related incidents.)

Nor do you get qualifications in "Everything" - you get Physicians, Engineers, Chemists, Lawyers, Actors, Historians, etc. People choose to specialise and take on one particular area.

That the Inquisition would also specialise to bring the right skills and the right equipment to face a given threat is common sense.

Of course, they are sometimes called upon to deal with threats which no-one better prepared can reach, and will sometimes reach a threat to find out it's not what it seemed, so they will sometimes have to soldier on against their speciality, but the cases in which no-one else can help will be relatively rare - and non-specialisation would be unlikely to benefit them significantly enough in these cases to make it worth it overall.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 27, 2011, 04:17:40 PM
In normal life people tend to specialize because they function in large organizations. An inquisitor however is a lone agent and usually has no choice in what he or she will uncover, it's very hard to go looking for daemon cults, one would usually look for any kind of prescribed cult activity. Of course, that does depend on the amount of inquisitors there will be active at a certain time in a specific area. In most situations noone will be around to take on a given threat. It would be a great dereliction of duty for an inquisitor to go after only what they prefer, or even prefer to go after those enemies.

Of course some inquisitors will specialize, I think looking outside, a xenos is the most likely one, daemons, heresy and witchcraft are just too mixed together to specialize in one of those.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Shannow on April 27, 2011, 04:27:52 PM
daemons, heresy and witchcraft are just too mixed together to specialize in one of those.

I think perhaps your still viewing daemons as 40k daemons in this particular respect. Witchcraft and heresy is separate as it is relatively low level in terms of power but has the great potential to corrupt other. Daemons however are series warp events that are massive threats to entire planets,,, though basic skills in routing cults out may remain the same I would certainly argue a hereticus inquisitor is much less likely to be able to cope with a daemon trying to tear its way from warp space or possessing an already potent psyker.

Crossover? Yes. But the same as to make indistinguishable? I would say no. BUT the above is entirely my take and you are of course entitled to your opinion  :)

R
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 27, 2011, 05:04:21 PM
In normal life people tend to specialize because they function in large organizations.
What else do you think the Inquisition is other than a large organization?

Quote
An inquisitor however is a lone agent and usually has no choice in what he or she will uncover
Not in the slightest.

An Inquisitor will have a vast network of informants, as well as no small number of allies with their own contacts. Their Ordo as a whole will be contacted by any number of Imperial organisations requiring some form of aid on a daily basis. But it would be very, very rare for an Inquisitor to discover the first leads on any case themselves.

What this means is that at any one time, there will be a huge number of possible threats to chase down.

Yes, there are the cases that something is not as it seems. But firstly, as Shannow says, it's not that vague.
Secondly, all Inquisitors will have developed experience and skills which can be applied to more generic cases, so they would not be powerless in the face of any other threat but their specialisation.
Thirdly, you can get on the phone to guys who know the subject better.

And if there are no/few specialists, that last one can't happen. Imagining ringing an Inquisition support line:
"Yes, I have tried stabbing the daemon. I tried that first, it didn't kill it. Look, I just want you to send out a guy to have a look at it!"
"I'm sorry, sir, all our daemon killing operatives are busy at the moment, and we have a 16 month waiting list. Have you tried intoning the 2,137 verses of Saint Kelola's prayer against the daemon?"
"Yes, but it killed my priest as he was chanting."
"Well, have you tried getting a new one sir?"
"Yes, and it killed him too."
"Oh. I see. Have you tried closing all the windows, then opening them again?"
"What fething good would that do?!"
"Don't get angry at me sir. It's on my script."
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Shannow on April 27, 2011, 05:29:01 PM

"Yes, I have tried stabbing the daemon. I tried that first, it didn't kill it. Look, I just want you to send out a guy to have a look at it!"
"I'm sorry, sir, all our daemon killing operatives are busy at the moment, and we have a 16 month waiting list. Have you tried intoning the 2,137 verses of Saint Kelola's prayer against the daemon?"
"Yes, but it killed my priest as he was chanting."
"Well, have you tried getting a new one sir?"
"Yes, and it killed him too."
"Oh. I see. Have you tried closing all the windows, then opening them again?"
"What fething good would that do?!"
"Don't get angry at me sir. It's on my script."


This resulted in regurgitated apple and a coughing fit! Kudos Marco kudos  ;D
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Ulgavitch on April 27, 2011, 07:11:27 PM
I just laughed my tea all over the monitor at that!

Thanks Marco, your brilliance owes me a new monitor.  :)
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 28, 2011, 08:12:23 AM
That's a funny situation.

However, calling someone for their expertise would be a bit difficult due to the relative slowness of communication in the forty-first millennium. Added to that complication inquisitors tend to be a bit secretive about where they actually are(except for the famous types who have a slight tendency to be in the public) When dealing with especially something daemonic you would want to act as quickly as possible, any delay might lead to full-scale incursions which lead to vastly more work, not only in removing the threat but then removing the evidence.

What I meant with inquisitors being lone agents working outside of large organizations is that they have a far greater degree of autonomy, that is the very reason they were set up in the first place. The inquisition is a very small organization by the standards of the time, of course it will still be larger than any we have on earth now but that is due to the scale of the Imperium. Of course inquisitors have large networks of agents under them who will be capable of doing much of the work themselves, the inquisitor will only appear when his or her presence is required.

I am in no way denying that many inquisitors will be members of an ordo but merely that a significant proportion of them would be unaffiliated.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Kaled on April 28, 2011, 10:13:37 AM
An Inquisitor wouldn't need to know the whereabouts of a particular expert - one of the purposes of Inquisitorial Conclaves is to act as a central point of contact. An Inquisitor is supposed to inform the local Conclave that he's operating in their area - he can then send a message to the local fortress and it should be passed to someone who has the required specialist knowledge. Plus an Inquisitor is going to have sufficient contacts within the Inquisition that if he doesn't know someone who can help then, he should know someone who knows someone who can help.

Joining an Ordo is a shortcut to setting up this sort of web of contacts - someone in the club is bound to know someone who can help. Plus membership brings with it the use of the Ordos resources - which in the case of the big three are considerable. Not joining doesn't mean an Inquisitor can't have contacts and resources, indeed the Inquisition as a whole has these in abundance, but it can make it harder for him to get such things.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 28, 2011, 11:32:26 AM
As Kaled says, the Ordo itself will have a central base of operations in each sector and subsector. You don't need to get in contact with an individual Inquisitor specifically (although, of course, one should suspect that any Inquisitor worth their salt has allies in the other Ordos they can contact directly).

I think the thing here is you're underestimating the vast power and aid an Ordo can offer - it is after all dozens, if not hundreds, of Inquisitors in your sector alone all pooling their resources - and overestimating how much not specialising would help.

While I earlier referred to multiple, rather disjointed qualifications, in reality, Inquisitors of different Ordos will share a lot of common experience.
Unless it's a particularly large scale threat, most Inquisitors will have enough experience and common sense to deal with other areas - many of the investigation skills will be the same, and a bolter works as well on most of the threats.
And if it is a large scale threat, casual dabbling in the area is unlikely to be enough to help! That's when it's time to get in contact with the appropriate Ordo and request their aid specifically.

Obviously, not every Inquisitor will join an Ordo, but those who wish to shirk the massive support of an Ordo will be rare. Contrary to what the Rulebook says (in the Monodominants description), I suspect that even those Inquisitors who do think everything is an equal threat and don't wish to personally specialise will probably chip in with an Ordo simply to get access to the contacts and resources it can offer.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 28, 2011, 12:42:27 PM
I think the thing here is you're underestimating the vast power and aid an Ordo can offer - it is after all dozens, if not hundreds, of Inquisitors in your sector alone all pooling their resources - and overestimating how much not specialising would help.

I think that there we have reached the center of our disagreeing, the number of inquisitors in a region of space at the same point in time. With dozens or even hundreds of inquisitors in a sector the ordos would indeed gain such power and importance, however, if there are never more than say, ten inquisitors in a sector this would change. Much more would depend on far more informal ties between individuals without needing anything like an ordo, especially because some of these would have been trained by others in the same region. With this number of inquisitors in a sector they would have to be far more self-sufficient than when there are hundreds.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: MarcoSkoll on April 28, 2011, 01:10:51 PM
I think that there we have reached the center of our disagreeing, the number of inquisitors in a region of space at the same point in time.
And it's clearly enough that a system based around Ordos is not only existent, but commonplace.

There might be the odd sector that is an oddity in that is sparse and safe enough it only needs ten Inquisitors to deal with any possible threats, and thus might do without threat specific Ordos (although would likely have a general purpose sector Ordo for the sake of collaboration), but I dare say these sectors are not numerous enough to justify the statement to the effect of "most Inquisitors wouldn't join an Ordo" you made earlier.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 28, 2011, 01:17:16 PM
I think that most sectors wouldn't have many inquisitors, there of course wouldn't be enough but that, at least in my mind, seems fitting for the setting. If there would be enough inquisitors operational large-scale rebellions as do frequently occur would be far harder to organize and nearly nonexistent.

These inquisitors could of course organize themselves but it would not be one of the big named ones.

The fluff focuses on the most important sectors where most inquisitors would be, the largest part of the imperium would be backwater sectors without such a massive inquisitorial presence.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Kaled on April 28, 2011, 01:37:17 PM
I'm still not sure how you've reached that conclusion. Every sector is really on the frontier of Imperial space in some way - the Imperium controls a miniscule proportion of the galaxy but is spread thinly across its entire span. Alien empires rise and fall often unnoticed by the Imperium even though they're technically within it's borders so the threat from xenos is ever present even when it's not on the scale of a massive war. Witchcraft and uncontrolled psykers appear on every world, the minions of chaos are ever ready to move against the Imperium. The threats faced by th Inquisition are not restricted to key sectors and frontier worlds - they're everywhere. The magnitude of the threat will differ and so some Ordos will have a bigger or smaller presence in some sectors, but, like the threats it faces, the Inquisition is everywhere. Some sectors may just have a hamdful of actual Inquisitors but they would seem to be the exception not the norm.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 28, 2011, 02:00:34 PM
The threats faced by the inquisition are not faced only by key worlds but efforts do focus on them, many worlds can leave the fol without being noticed, this implies that the inquisition isn't present there. Inquisitors also aren't needed for most threats. The inquisitor only directly faces the gravest threats, most cults will be rooted out without their direct involvement, the same goes for witchcraft and xenos activity. The inquisition only comes into play when lower levels of authority cannot find or destroy the threat. But I guess all this depends on how one looks at the setting.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Ulgavitch on April 28, 2011, 02:14:51 PM
Quote
The threats faced by the inquisition are not faced only by key worlds but efforts do focus on them, many worlds can leave the fol without being noticed, this implies that the inquisition isn't present there. Inquisitors also aren't needed for most threats. The inquisitor only directly faces the gravest threats, most cults will be rooted out without their direct involvement, the same goes for witchcraft and xenos activity. The inquisition only comes into play when lower levels of authority cannot find or destroy the threat.

I beg to differ. The Inquisition is involved in what-ever takes its fancy or interest, that's sort of the point. There isn't a hierarchy of threats which the Inquisition ignores, as even the lowliest cult can be incredible dangerous. A committed four or five man cult could summon a daemon to destroy a world much easier than a two hundred man cult, because they are smaller. The Inquisition has to keep an eye on all of this.

The other thing to note is that the Inquisition controls knowledge as well as threats. The three Ordos Majoris don't just protect the fabric of the Imperium, but it's people from information which would warp their minds. You don't send Arbites or PDF troops un-supervised to clean up a cult, because who knows what they will discover? The threat might then spread further through those 'new' minds. 

You need the trust in and suspicion of an Inquisitor to make sure that the threat is destroyed safely. Even if it then means having the PDF soldiers who cleared up the cult killed so they tell no-one either...

 
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 28, 2011, 02:36:49 PM
I think that most threats would be removed by groups which I perhaps wrongly called lower. An inquisitor would only deal personally with the most important affairs, the rest he or she would leave to underlings, most small cults would be cleaned up by these lower organizations, they would just be rounded up and executed, this of course presents the risk. The problem you point to, of small, dedicated cults is indeed a great danger, however, even when inquisitors try to look into it they won't find such small cults unless they do something stupid. It is the same problem as we have in the real world, loners or very small groups can and will remain undetected if they are careful.

I must however say that I had completely forgotten about suppressing the knowledge. It would take either the inquisitor or more commonly one of his subordinates to deal with that.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Kaled on April 28, 2011, 03:36:17 PM
An Inquisitor would only deal personally with the most important affairs, but that doesn't mean the rest are dealt with by 'lower' organisations - every Inquisitor heads a large organisation of agents (both knowing and unknowing), informants, cells of acolytes etc all of whom work to combat threats to the Imperium. They may not be Inquisitors but they are still the Inquisition. Even if a sector did only have a dozen Inquisitors it would still have many thousands of Inquisitorial agents working to root out heresy in all its forms. The sector conclave would be small in terms of number of Inquisitors but could still have pooled massive resources they could draw on in times of need.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 28, 2011, 03:58:08 PM
Well then, I think we agree. A large part of the rest will be dealt with by underlings, including unknowing ones who will often be part of those lower organizations.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Ulgavitch on April 28, 2011, 04:31:04 PM
Quote
Well then, I think we agree. A large part of the rest will be dealt with by underlings, including unknowing ones who will often be part of those lower organizations.


It always reminds me of how manipulative an Inquisitor has to be. I occasionally forget, while they are doing all their action heroics, that they always are the center of their own spy ring and networks. Their greatest weapons (at the risk of sounding cliched) are the other people doing their bidding.

So, yes, if you mean by lower parts, it could be other inquisitorial agents knowing or unknowing. We agree. They must have been carefully selected, however, because the protection of knowledge is important regardless.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Flinty on April 29, 2011, 09:35:23 AM
A useful analogy for the Inquisition might be the modern Intelligence services of any country. They each have thier own structures and hierarchies and areas of interest. Sometimes, several agencies may take an interest in the same area, event or individual; they might co-operate, sometimes they will have divergent or conflicting aims. Each branch or arm will have its own, and sometimes shared, support and logistics functions; and presumably each will maintain its own level of secrecy with regards to other branches.

The unifiying factor is that they are all (in a multitude of ways and with degrees of success) working towards a shared goal of national security, be it internal or external, abd in the Imperium, without.

 
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Dolnikan on April 29, 2011, 11:39:26 AM
A useful analogy for the Inquisition might be the modern Intelligence services of any country. They each have thier own structures and hierarchies and areas of interest. Sometimes, several agencies may take an interest in the same area, event or individual; they might co-operate, sometimes they will have divergent or conflicting aims. Each branch or arm will have its own, and sometimes shared, support and logistics functions; and presumably each will maintain its own level of secrecy with regards to other branches.

The unifiying factor is that they are all (in a multitude of ways and with degrees of success) working towards a shared goal of national security, be it internal or external, abd in the Imperium, without.

 

That indeed is a very useful analogy, I personally would consider each inquisitor to be a separate branch, ordos would then be cooperation groups of a bunch of branches.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Inquisitor Dionzi on May 26, 2011, 06:27:22 PM
That's a good point - remember that the presence of an Ordo in a specific area is referred to as an Ordos - a subsidiary bureaucratic establishment that can 1) administer/oversee the entirety (sorta) of Inquisitorial efforts in the sector across all three Ordos, or 2) be a specific field office for an Ordo in the sector.

Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Easy E on June 16, 2011, 07:46:55 PM
So, do people change Ordos?

Fro example, Eisenhorn is an Ordo Xeno at first, but that doesn't stop him getting involved with Demonhost's and such.  At some point in his career, as he encountered more and more of such creatures could he choose or petition or something to switch to the Ordo Malleus? 

Related, can people formally sever ties with their Ordos to go free agent? 
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: MarcoSkoll on June 16, 2011, 09:04:27 PM
At some point in his career, as he encountered more and more of such creatures could he choose or petition or something to switch to the Ordo Malleus?
If we're using Eisenhorn as an example, there is another Inquisitor who changes Ordos (I forget his name - it comes up near the end of the second book). So yes.

Quote
Related, can people formally sever ties with their Ordos to go free agent?
Yes, but why they would want to is another matter.

The Inquisition in the Eisenhorn books is very bureaucratic, quite unlike the normality of the Inquisition (the sector is apparently "special"). For the most part, an Inquisitor's Ordo won't bother him, nor he it. So you can basically consider about any Inquisitor a "free agent", even if part of an Ordo.

However, those pooled resources are very useful if you need them.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Molotov on June 16, 2011, 09:28:33 PM
From memory it's Titus Endor, who is coerced into changing Ordos.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: DapperAnarchist on June 16, 2011, 09:44:28 PM
And is the last heir of the treehouse of the Ewok family...

A better question than "can they change" (I think its obvious they can, how would the Ordo Malleus recruit, if even Inquisitors are kept away from the darker secrets of daemon-summoning and banishment) is can you be in more than one Ordo at a time...
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: SpanielBear on June 16, 2011, 09:47:08 PM
Another thing to add to the quitting an Ordo question; just as an Ordo represents a pool of resources and knowledge not normally available, so too does each member of the Ordo represent some of that unique content. An Inquisitor with Xeno experience might leave the Ordo to move to the Malleus, but I doubt he will refuse to assist the Ordo with a local Genestealer infestation should they request his aid. And if he did refuse, I doubt that would be looked on kindly.

At the more extreme end of the spectrum, being inducted into an Ordo might involve the learning of specialist secrets and hidden truths. Having such knowledge would make an individual dangerous. Imagine a country training a scientist in the manufacture of nuclear weapons, supplying him with all the necessary materials, and then he suddenly announces he wishes to travel and see the world for a few years. Unsupervised. Without a forwarding address.

I'm suspecting problems at border control, at the very least.
Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Easy E on June 20, 2011, 08:02:32 PM
We know that you don't have to choose an Ordo at all.  Using Marco's thought process why would you ever chose to be a free agent not associated with an Ordo? 

Here are some thoughts:
1. Other may question your "right" to be an Inquisitor
2. You are too busy to do the parperwork
3. You were raised in the field, and have not yet returned to the Conclave to do so

Title: Re: The Ordo Chronos
Post by: Shannow on June 22, 2011, 10:10:00 PM
Parper work  - form 3a, section 2d, paragraph 4 - to be filled out in event of sudden release of noxious gas. :P

hehe