The Conclave

The Ordos Majoris - Hobby, Painting and Modelling => Painting and Modelling => Topic started by: Dolnikan on May 20, 2011, 08:35:05 AM

Title: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 20, 2011, 08:35:05 AM
Earlier this week GW announced a new range they call citadel finecast, which appears to be the replacement of metals by resin as has been rumoured(and deemed unlikely by me) They haven't given much information yet but on other sites people 'in the know' have confirmed that it will be resin of a more flexible kind than Forgeworld's.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16400050a (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16400050a)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 20, 2011, 08:42:17 AM
I betcha there won't be an Inquisitor miniature amongst them .. sadly. Ah well, I wonder if I can get a Resin Space Marine instead. He'll probably hold together easier.

I doesn't say anything about Risen on there though, how do you know this will be it?
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 20, 2011, 08:51:29 AM
I read about it on warseer, Harry(a very reliable rumourmongerer there) confirmed it. There have also been talks to managers about the great new resin they will use.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Shannow on May 20, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
Went into Bristol GW today and had a long chat with the manager, he said they are releasing 100 miniatures in the first wave and they will be in Resin, judging by the promo posters he showed me they look very nice and some have the possibility to have a few gubbin worthy of use in Inq though he made no mention of prices....
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: biggreengribbly on May 20, 2011, 05:26:18 PM
Went into Bristol GW today and had a long chat with the manager, he said they are releasing 100 miniatures in the first wave and they will be in Resin, judging by the promo posters he showed me they look very nice and some have the possibility to have a few gubbin worthy of use in Inq though he made no mention of prices....

Lucky Bristol. Swansea's boss was refusing to discuss the matter in anything but the absolute vaguest of terms until the 28th to 'make it a bit more exciting'.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Shannow on May 20, 2011, 05:30:33 PM
Well to be fair, he was actually the Bath manager filling in for Bristol and had to unpack a huge order so probably a bit disgruntled and bitterly releasing secrets :P
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 20, 2011, 07:22:20 PM
though he made no mention of prices...
Not surprising really. There have been leaks from the independent retailers that most prices are going up 20% over current metals (although all prices are going up, not just the resin), so I can't see he'd wanted to have mentioned it.

Indeed, the news means I'm voting with my wallet. I'll keep playing, but what I don't already have I can do without or can buy elsewhere.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: steveb on May 20, 2011, 07:45:09 PM
I've heard rumblings that direct sales will continue to produce metals for figures that haven't yet been switched to the new resin. This would presumably include all the Specialist stuff. Would seem like sense or there would be a load of figures unavailable for a good while until they get remastered.

But I guess concrete details will come after the 28th.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 20, 2011, 09:23:13 PM
Quote
Not surprising really. There have been leaks from the independent retailers that most prices are going up 20% over current metals (although all prices are going up, not just the resin), so I can't see he'd wanted to have mentioned it.

I know, we're not supposed to discuss pricing so I'll just say ... gosh.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ynek on May 20, 2011, 11:05:31 PM
Indeed, the news means I'm voting with my wallet. I'll keep playing, but what I don't already have I can do without or can buy elsewhere.

Heh. I haven't bought a GW miniature in years. When a company starts asking 10 for what is essentially a piece of shaped metal, I raise an eyebrow.

Nowadays, I use eBay, largely because GW no longer stocks many of the things I am interested in (Specialist Games miniatures, primarily,) and I also do a lot of self-sculpting / self-casting. Perhaps when my skills at making moulds meets my (borderline acceptable) sculpting skills, I'll start retailing....

But that's just me daydreaming...

The short, two word version is: I agree.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 21, 2011, 02:25:53 AM
Well, my Inquisitor stuff is mostly self-sculpted (...or heavily converted Airfix). Still, I do have an Eldar army I've been working on every now and again, and I'd been buying miscellaneous sundries out of what was an ill founded sense of loyalty.

But they've now pushed too many things too far, and I rather hope enough people agree with me that the drop in sales will smack some sense into the management.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: precinctomega on May 21, 2011, 02:24:45 PM
In the last 12 months or so, I've spent about 2500 on Games Workshop products, of which only about 100 was spent with them directly and the rest was through discount retailers.  However, it's noticeable that in the last three months the number of commissions I've had to paint stuff that isn't GW has increased substantially.

R.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Macabre on May 21, 2011, 04:29:44 PM
GW long ago priced themselves out of the gaming community (so much so that their target demographic, i.e. teenagers can no longer afford to purchase their products leading to low profit yields) and now the only thing keeping them afloat is their high street availability. I guarantee if other systems (such as Warmachine) had similar availability, GW would decline further.

As too this new 'finecast', I personally don't care much for resin as its a pig to work with, and having seen the GW results, I can honestly say that they're less than impressive.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 21, 2011, 10:01:53 PM
Oh dear. I seem to have derailed this thread. A couple of comments...

Quote from: precinctomega
However, it's noticeable that in the last three months the number of commissions I've had to paint stuff that isn't GW has increased substantially.
Interesting... it's not necessarily a mass exodus - it could be that your studio is becoming more known outside the GW community - but it certainly doesn't sound good.

Quote from: Macabre
I guarantee if other systems (such as Warmachine) had similar availability, GW would decline further.
Oddly, enough, it's quite often said to be GW's stores that are part of the problem. While on one side of things, it's a big advert, on the flipside, the overheads on the stores are a big drain on their coffers.

... and now an attempt to crowbar this back on topic:

~~~~~

I am interested to see the new resins. I know it's not going to be the wonder material GW are suggesting (I've worked with enough resin models to know that much), but it's nonetheless one of the biggest changes to their product in years.

The casting quality and quirks of working with the new material (which as I understand, is actually a plastic/resin hybrid) will be a very much make or break thing for GW, so its success or lack thereof will affect GW's future in the market.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Backyardpatrol on May 22, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
If you get a dud metal casting, you just throw it back in the pot. If you get a dud resin casting... Well I suppose if you grind it up finely enough you could use it as filler in another model.
The cost of a resin changeover has got to be high.
This puts them on par with Boutique manufacturers with even smaller profit margins.
Although metals not their core right now, it's plastic injection molding. Can resin profits pay for metal toolings?
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 22, 2011, 02:52:06 AM
That does raise new questions about quality control.

A "sorta okay" metal is easy to throw back into the melting pot, but I wonder how many "sorta okay" resin models they'll let through because they can't.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Dionzi on May 22, 2011, 03:38:01 AM
That's a seriously unpleasant thought, Marco....
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 22, 2011, 12:06:18 PM
It also matches to many people's experience of Forge World. Unless the output is much less mistake prone than FW, GW Finecast is going to be dumping a lot of stuff. And while Forge World are small enough that calling them gets you through to a small company where things can be done, GW is a big international company now...

Though perhaps they have solved that problem, which wouldn't surprise me that much. We may critique some of their model design, and their rule design, and the background they produce, but they do seem to have the most advanced production technology out there...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 22, 2011, 01:50:15 PM
But they do seem to have the most advanced production technology out there...
Hardly. They've never done an injection mould with more than two slides (which was the Baneblade, I think). Other companies have done seven, possibly more.

And slide moulds are still a 40 year old technology, with Tamiya having used it in the late 60s - so they're not exactly forging ahead on that one.

They're good, but they're not as cutting edge as they'd like to pretend.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on May 22, 2011, 02:12:25 PM
aye; pickup any Spartan Games miniature; we do things with resin that put GWs metals to shame...
with some of the more complicated things i've cast, i'm reeling from the prices GW are charging... may grab the cheapest figure to see what quality is like; Forgeworld quality and price is a disgrace.. combined with Marcos' point about metals being melted back down.. for its price resin isn't worth breaking down for reuse (you grind it up and use the powder to bulk up the liquid resin)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 22, 2011, 03:33:44 PM
Fair enough - though it wasn't either their resin or their metal production I meant, but what I've been told about their plastics... Their metals seem to be at best ordinary (though benefitting from having people like Goodwin and Diaz around, of course) and the resin, though nicely designed, is infamous for coming broken, missing, bubbly, or twisted.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 23, 2011, 08:54:18 AM
Those price increases, are they worldwide or a UK thing?(sorry for going off topic again)

In my limited experience other manufacturers tend to have better casting quality than GW, they just have some very good sculptors and a large model range with a nice universe to play in.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: viper_eX on May 23, 2011, 12:29:45 PM
Those price increases, are they worldwide or a UK thing?(sorry for going off topic again)

In my limited experience other manufacturers tend to have better casting quality than GW, they just have some very good sculptors and a large model range with a nice universe to play in.

worldwide i fear, as they increase in germany as well...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on May 23, 2011, 05:13:03 PM
More news!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700019a
might be late.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 23, 2011, 10:09:50 PM
More news!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700019a
might be late.

Dunno where to start here as I have a few things to say and not much inclination to write a long post. I suppose I'll start with saying that I haven't bought any stuff from them for ages and don't intend to.

Metals have always been nicer than plastic for crisp details, despite these advanced techniques that they apparently use when making their plastics (which seem to be getting better but still aren't as good as pewter). Regarding the quoted post and link therein, they're saying that these previously pewter made models, now done it some sort of resin composite, will be even crisper? I'll believe it when I see it I guess.

As for quality control, well their prices will soon be on a par with FW, I suppose they'll aim for the same level of QC too, and presumably even that abysmal standard will be unattainable given the volume of product involved.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 23, 2011, 11:56:28 PM
The cynical side of me says several things. In approximate order:

- "after all they are the ones that have spent the last few months living and breathing Citadel Finecast". Yeah, I wouldn't have put "breathing" in that sentence, given the reputation of resin.

- No, one of the main reasons you've changed is because Resin is far cheaper than Tin. Detail is just your excuse.

- Hmm, funny they don't put pictures of these new resins alongside the metals they're replacing so we can see this vast leap in detail.

- I'm expecting the stores to not look like that. It's basically the same model as you could've had years ago, it just weighs less and costs more. Most painters won't be able to do the extra detail any justice, and any but the most diaphanous layers of paint mean it'll end up looking the same as the one you bought last week, your wallet will just be an awful lot lighter.

In short, it reads like a load of hype. Prediction: Flash in the pan.

Perhaps a good business decision overall because of the drop in materials costs (although the cost of converting the moulds cannot be trivial, and assuming they haven't pushed the profit/sales balance even further from equilibrium), but as far as it being some suddenly roaring success which every gamer is rushing out to hoard for their collection, I'm not seeing it.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: biggreengribbly on May 24, 2011, 12:27:42 AM
But if they say it loudly and often enough, that makes it true, right? That's how this 'marketing' thing works, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: precinctomega on May 24, 2011, 07:27:30 AM
Precinct Omega will be sticking to white metal for the foreseeable future.

R.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 24, 2011, 08:42:22 AM
It doesn't seem all that highly detailed to me to be honest, not much better than the pewter, and certainly not better than what I have seen from other manufacturers.

Quote
There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world,
They are one of the biggest manufacturers in the world, making this technically true, there is no company on the wargaming market of GW's size with their level or quality, after all, they are the biggest. Real marketing, not lying but merely hiding behind words.


Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 24, 2011, 08:44:18 AM
Marco:
Quote
your wallet will just be an awful lot lighter.

And your miniature case ... because that's what's really important, right?

Biggreengribbly:
Quote
That's how this 'marketing' thing works, right?

Having worked in marketing, depressingly this often proves to be true. However, even the best marketing cannot make an unaffordable (not expensive, unaffordable) product desirable to those that can't afford it. I wonder if we may have passed that boundary with this latest price hike.

In which case ... all the marketing in the world can't help!
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on May 24, 2011, 11:06:17 AM
Re: precinctomega..

Really? I'd have thought resin would work well with its cleaner detail and found it quite cheap to outsource and easy to do stuf inhouse..
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 24, 2011, 12:48:05 PM
With everything I read about how much they have to do to convert the moulds to use resin, it does seem like they're likely to just not bother with bringing Specialist Games on to their wonderful new technology (this new tech that people have already been using for years).

Perhaps they'll keep doing them in metal (Now at a higher price, because we're still making these old models just for you, the customer) or drop the ranges entirely, I don't know.

I wonder if we may have passed that boundary with this latest price hike.
But it's not just about affordable. I can afford to play GW prices, I am however no longer prepared to. When I can keep myself entertained longer for less, why do I need to?

Okay, my skill set is unusual. Not everyone can, or indeed enjoys, making teeny weeny models from scratch.
But GW are starting to put themselves into a very, very dangerous market with each price rise.

Two regular boxes of Space Marines, the core of a Space Marine force: 46, and about to go up.
One copy of most modern video games at release: 40-50, even at high street prices. Drops to below 20-30 if you look online and you're prepared to wait a few weeks.

They need to offer better fun/cost ratios than other entertainments, and given the ease of buying Call of Honour 7.4: Portal Theft Evolved and wasting endless hours on online play (also a much less niche pastime which is less likely to get your lunch money stolen), they're not going to be doing that.

I keep wondering where the people at GW's head office got their qualifications that they learnt that the solution to falling sales was to make your product even more expensive.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 24, 2011, 04:17:56 PM
Quote
But it's not just about affordable. I can afford to play GW prices, I am however no longer prepared to. When I can keep myself entertained longer for less, why do I need to?

I was using 'affordable' in the marketing and pricing sense of the world: a product which the majority of the core purchasers can no longer make significant purchases of. I think we're a little old (I definitely am)
to be regarded as the core audience, and we've probably got more disposable income. Therefore for us, and we're probably a subsidary or niche market, it remains a larger ticket item - expensive but still available.

Though I'm not sure what their market research people are telling them, I would wonder about the disposable income of the average teenage boy. Especially considering the macro-economic conditions.

Quote
They need to offer better fun/cost ratios than other entertainments, and given the ease of buying Call of Honour 7.4: Portal Theft Evolved and wasting endless hours on online play (also a much less niche pastime which is less likely to get your lunch money stolen), they're not going to be doing that.

I keep wondering where the people at GW's head office got their qualifications that they learnt that the solution to falling sales was to make your product even more expensive.

Absolute nail on the head. The behaviour of GW in terms of a retail organisation is so bizarre you could write an essay on it.  This is an organisation that has never had a sale, does not do any marketing outside of WD and responds to both an increasingly competitive marketplace and poor economic conditions by raising it's price by 20%. That is so utterly perverse in terms of retailing behaviour that it makes my head spin.

Previously, it used to be that GW could abuse it's position of market dominance (especially in the late 90's, early 00's) but now even that is slipping away. I'm hearing talk of a twenty percent market slip in the last year. Who responds to that kind of kicking with a price rise? A sale, an add campaign, reach out operations - something else. Not price rises. It's bad business sense. 

If the resin is cheaper - then pass the savings on to the customer! But I guess they need  their 70%
margins, to maintain the balance on a smaller audience. It seems like they've forgotten they are running a retail business... it genuinely does. 
 
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on May 24, 2011, 04:24:42 PM
Oh look, more news http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700035a
Shame, no prices
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 24, 2011, 04:43:32 PM
They used to do sales all the time. These were mostly "store opening" sales where it was 3 for 2 on blisters, but the store where I am has been established for as long as I can remember, at least 20 years, and they had slaes there too, so they weren't all store openings. They weren't all 3 for 2's either, they'd do bargain bin type events. Of course this was all back when the hobby made some sense.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on May 24, 2011, 06:17:24 PM
With everything I read about how much they have to do to convert the moulds to use resin,

with the existing spin moulds no converting is required; more getting the right resin and techniques (much harder'n it sounds)
on the flipside, making new moulds isn't that difficult; about 48 hours with setting time... of course you can do a batch at once (like 10 moulds, each of 5 figures)  ;)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 24, 2011, 06:22:46 PM
... How tough can resin be? Cos its depressing enough if a metal model falls, comes apart, and paint chips off. Imagine it shattering...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: viper_eX on May 24, 2011, 06:39:15 PM
... How tough can resin be? Cos its depressing enough if a metal model falls, comes apart, and paint chips off. Imagine it shattering...

it's harder than metal but not as much as glass, so it doesn't shatter too fast (depending on what mixture they will actually use and how high you had the model when it falls)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 24, 2011, 08:50:37 PM
I think we're a little old (I definitely am) to be regarded as the core audience, and we've probably got more disposable income.
I think most people on here are. They market mostly to early teens.

As far as the disposable income of the average teenager, I think they're anticipating Mum/Dad buying models at the request of little Johnny, and being happy to be able to bundle him into the GW store to play a game or two whenever they're out shopping to avoid him whining about having to be in Marks and Spencers.
But trying to support your business on that seems crazy to me.

Quote
This is an organisation that has never had a sale, does not do any marketing outside of WD and responds to both an increasingly competitive marketplace and poor economic conditions by raising it's price by 20%. That is so utterly perverse in terms of retailing behaviour that it makes my head spin.
As Ferran says, they have had sales, but I don't remember one locally within my gaming hobby (Approaching 12 years now). I remember Skullz, which you had to accumulate silly numbers of to get anything back, but again, ages ago.

So for practical effects on their current business model, they don't hold sales.

Which seems like it could be daft. It would be a way of testing the waters to see how things would be at lower prices... and if someone decides to use a sale as an excuse to start a new army, then they're probably going to want to make it bigger at some point in the future. Ergo, profit.

Also, as far as advertising, I believe they've removed WD from WHSmith. Which is incredibly stupid as far as keeping their profile.

Quote
If the resin is cheaper - then pass the savings on to the customer! But I guess they need  their 70%
margins, to maintain the balance on a smaller audience. It seems like they've forgotten they are running a retail business... it genuinely does. 
I don't know what GW is saying right now, but they tend to flip flop between claiming to be a Retail business, a Manufacturing business or a Hobby business depending on how things are going and how grumpy the shareholders are.

As far as their margins, they're basically huge, which is what irritates me even more about the claims of rising materials costs.
There's 20 pence worth of plastic in an average regiment/squad box. More than it was ten years ago, but they could have easily absorbed that rise into the margins. Given that most of their costs are essentially unchanged - labour won't have massively changed, making the steel moulds is basically the same cost, etc, prices shouldn't have rocketed. Materials costs are tiny and shouldn't even show up on the surface.

with the existing spin moulds no converting is required; more getting the right resin and techniques (much harder'n it sounds)
The stories on Warseer start from they need to modify them with at bigger gates and vents and go up to some people I think know what they're talking about discussing the possibility that they're actually injection moulded resin. Which could be nonsense, but I don't know the subject all that well.

... How tough can resin be? Cos its depressing enough if a metal model falls, comes apart, and paint chips off. Imagine it shattering...
It's not that vulnerable. It's a long way from being as strong as metal and is brittle rather than malleable, but because it's also incredibly light, so it hasn't really got the weight to damage itself.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 24, 2011, 09:31:40 PM
Marco:

Quote
As far as their margins, they're basically huge, which is what irritates me even more about the claims of rising materials costs. There's 20 pence worth of plastic in an average regiment/squad box. More than it was ten years ago, but they could have easily absorbed that rise into the margins.

Absolutely - what's worse is that if you read their shareholders report, it's quite clear that they are proud of this fact. Despite (or in spite of...) the damage it is doing to their underlying market. I don't know why they can't mass manufacture for that price - do they need a map of retail stores everywhere you go?

Or it's total incompetence within their management ... always a possibility.   

It make me mad, and sad. I used to enjoy the hobby, spent many happy hours in GW or doing GW stuff ... and now, due to an excessive desire for profitability, they've wrecked it.

But back to the Resins - I'm getting the impression that I shouldn't bother buying stuff from FW then? I had my eye on a couple of models to use for Inq.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 25, 2011, 02:07:24 AM
It make me mad, and sad. I used to enjoy the hobby, spent many happy hours in GW or doing GW stuff ... and now, due to an excessive desire for profitability, they've wrecked it.
I still do enjoy the hobby. It's taken me many places I hadn't been before and probably wouldn't've otherwise.

But I can tell you, the company themselves aren't really part of my hobby any more. They've given me ideas and skills (if rather indirectly in the latter case) which I've picked up and run with. While it would have been very nice to see them running alongside, they've gone off in a completely different direction - doing it for the money, rather than for the love of simply doing it.

Whether I consider myself a Games Workshop gamer any more is a tough question. I still play games they've written and use models they made, but what I do isn't really what it means to be a GW gamer any more.

It's what it used to mean, but these days to be a GW gamer means you're a young teen with parents with more money than sense, a predicted attention span of about 18 months, always buying the latest shiny models and barely pushing your hobby further than making Space Marine Mary Sue #15,458,498,852 - a basically stock model except for a crudely done weapon swap.

Do I want to be seen that way? No, not at all. I'm definitely still a hobbyist/gamer, but a GW one?... a few years ago, it would have been a yes. Now I don't know, and that's probably actually very telling.

Quote
I'm getting the impression that I shouldn't bother buying stuff from FW then?
Actually, pretending GW actually have some sense, they may swap a lot of FW stuff onto the same resin. It'll save costs, and it sounds like they've put some real time into developing this resin (although they could be lying between their teeth. Wouldn't be the first time).
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Macabre on May 25, 2011, 06:11:29 AM
They haven't put any time into developing this 'new' resin. Having been fortunate enough to see some of these unpainted new finecast range earlier this week (surreptitiously of course by pulling strings with the local GW staff), they are riddled with hairline cracks, molding scars and on one (the ork big mek) fresh from the packaging the detail on the body was horribly distorted by bubbling.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on May 25, 2011, 07:19:12 AM
 ::) though, great for nurgle models.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 25, 2011, 10:14:07 AM
Too bad that they don't even do proper quality control.

My girlfriend and I have stopped making regular purchases a few years ago. Nowadays we don't really buy anything GW, especially not for our armies, that is simply too expensive for us. Of course we could buy stuff without going bankrupt but we can no longer justify paying those prices to ourselves.

We still like playing the games, painting and modeling. I used to like opening the blisters an boxes but now I only have the feeling that I pay far too much for what is still a small lump of metal.

GW is a very strange, in my opinion even illogical company. They continually raise their prices without taking into account that they lose customers by doing so. I sometimes get the idea that they think people have a set budget to spend on their stuff and will always keep spending that amount, no matter how little they get for it. It just seems like completely incompetent management. They have seen a continual decline in sales and have failed to respond adequately to it. They only raise the prices leading to a further decline in sales leading to new price increases.

They are active in a market where more and more competitors arrive, they however don't even try to compete with them, they ignore the competition and just hope that it will go away.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 25, 2011, 01:29:11 PM
They haven't put any time into developing this 'new' resin. Having been fortunate enough to see some of these unpainted new finecast range earlier this week (surreptitiously of course by pulling strings with the local GW staff), they are riddled with hairline cracks, molding scars and on one (the ork big mek) fresh from the packaging the detail on the body was horribly distorted by bubbling.

...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 25, 2011, 03:25:21 PM
Tomorrow I buy the Devout Sisters before they get resined... That might be where I stop.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Kaled on May 25, 2011, 03:43:49 PM
Perhaps instead of complaining (even though it is for very good reasons), we should look at this as an opportunity to recruit a few new players for Inquisitor. If people are thinking 40k is too expensive then maybe half a dozen 54mm models will seem like a more attractive proposition...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 25, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
what are Warseer's rules for attempts to encourage people to try out a particular game?
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Kaled on May 25, 2011, 03:54:38 PM
No idea. What's the worst that can happen..?

I'm working on a leaflet containing shortened version of the FAQ I wrote that we can hand out at Conclave events (or clubs etc) in an attempt to better inform people about the game and maybe convince them to give it a try.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 25, 2011, 04:04:27 PM
This should probably move to Community, but that sounds like a great idea!
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 25, 2011, 04:34:21 PM
Quote
I'm working on a leaflet containing shortened version of the FAQ I wrote that we can hand out at Conclave events (or clubs etc) in an attempt to better inform people about the game and maybe convince them to give it a try

Dave, I'm a freelance copy-writer and graphic designer, and I'm currently between jobs. If you want any text or design work done (I've done a fair few leaflet and poster campaigns) just ask and I promise you'll get a professional looking job.

I put together a poster to recruit players at my old club, I never got to use it. PM me and I'll show it you as an example.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 25, 2011, 07:41:43 PM
That is an interesting idea, both parts of it. I'm all for anything that has the potential to raise the profile of the game.

As far as the cost issue, I was looking at the "To play a GW game. What is the REAL cost?" thread on Warseer recently and people were summing up totals of 300-400 or more before books/tools/paint, and those were "standard armies" with no thought to terrain or such.

And all that was running through my head as I was reading was that you could put together a five man Inquisitor warband for 100, or a Necromunda/Mordheim gang/warband from a couple of plastic boxes and maybe a couple of metals to mix it up - all for about 50.

Specialist games are far cheaper to get into - which may be why GW doesn't really like them as much. To me, it would still look like money going into the coffers, but whatever they think.

As prices are going up, yeah, the lesser cost of entry could be one hell of a crowbar.

And leaflets - assuming we're not hidden away in the far corner, then it sounds great. If we can get past many of the misconceptions, then Inquisitor is a very unique offering that can do what you can't elsewhere.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on May 25, 2011, 08:21:51 PM
I have to agree with everything you said Marco, all those reasons for starting were actually the same reasons for me starting in the first place. There's a good levering point. Use examples of others who have got started on INQ for those reasons and say how well they have done at it.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: blacknight on May 25, 2011, 11:41:26 PM
I must admit I will be a bit disappointed if the resin models are not that good, based on what you are saying compared to the gw news.  The new tomb king characters are available for advance order now and some of the models are only available in finecast.  They are also more expensive than the metal equivalent characters.

This is especially hard down in New Zealand as the exchange rate has not been altered for a while so that while gw assumes it is 1:3.1 it is actually closer to 1:2.2 at the moment.

Anyway the leaflet campaign sounds like a great idea and would have huge potential with some people still wanting to be in the hobby but not having the funds or inclination to by more expensive armies.  There is not much of a specialist games community here (excluding spacehulk) that I am aware of and gaining more interest in it would have great potential.  There has been a bit of interest in store when I take inquisitor scale models in to paint with alot of people remembering them and wondering if the game is still played and available.

Anyway my 2c

Regards

Blacknight/Marc
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 26, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
A leaflet campaign is a good idea. I would certainly hand some out.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Stormgrad on May 26, 2011, 01:57:12 PM
GW and me, i first got into gw games at school im sure this applies to a few of us currently here on the clave, GW maidstone was a place to go on saturday spend a few hours with 5 or 6 others around a table while your freshly painted death company tear the throat out of your friends khorne bezerkers.

GW to me was christmas and birthdays and pocket money spent well, because of GW games i learned a great many things that help me now (at 12 i walked to the station, and got a train for the first time by myself all the way to maidstone and back again, i did most of my socializing with other GW Gamers, i learned how to do a basic budget and plan purchases because i wanted to work out when i could afford to buy that next unit, i even learned i could save money by cutting things out that i didnt need or want as much as that bike mounted chaplain and most importantly lie about my age so i could go to the pub after for a drink). Now im sure in time i would of developed these skills on my own but i pushed to learn them and be an Independent Young Adult so i could Go to GW on a saturday spend a few hours with my friends.

During this time ive endured price increase and ive fallen in and out of love with GW's games and products but theres a part of me that is perhaps nostalgia that cant help but go into GW maidstone when im in town, ok so the shop has moved (2 doors down) but the manager is still the same guy i used to want to be when i was 13, now i dont want to be him (id need a hell of a better paying job to afford the merchandise his selling) but i still want to go in there set up my poorly painted blood angels and have a few laughs with people i can call friends.

Now im not sure if its that GW has changed so much or that ive grown up as im sure you all will agree as we grow older our attitudes change but prices now are double that of when i started and not even my nostalgia can make that an affordable price hike. Im ranting now but i wish GW the best with there citadel Finecast range, and im sure they will produce one or two peices i see a use for and ill buy but this time last month, when i found out that i was going to be spending 6 hours a day for 3 days a week on the same street as GW maidstone i was delighted now im depressed

so much for that drop troop army i had been planning (or any army)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 26, 2011, 03:10:34 PM
was in GW Chester today, and the guy behind the counter (who's very good at customer service by the standards of GW - not lunging on top of you to find out all about what you want) said that the Finecast schedule is that all metals will be Finecast in two years...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Flinty on May 26, 2011, 10:23:32 PM
I've been following this on a few other forums, partly as I wondered if GW would drop the metals altogether, and so either ditch the Inq range or maybe move it to 'plast-resin'.

Quote
not sure if its that GW has changed so much or that ive grown up as im sure you all will agree as we grow older our attitudes change but prices now are double

This was a very common thought on the threads - if GW is based on a pocket-money customer base with a two year lifespan, these price rises are very ill thought out, plus the 'vets' are whinging like hell.

What I find depressing (also part of getting older) was that awful post on the GW website Octavian Lars posted where selected staff pick a model to paint. What were the comments on the new finecast figures? - crisp...err...takes paint well, shows off detail (what? the mold is identical!) and...that was it, repeated 6 or so times.

Sadlly you need very little brain power to spot a tawdry and very half hearted attempt at marketing hype. If they can't even be bothered to be enthuised with thier own products, god help them.

(Having said that I am going to buy one of the Talos variants).
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Stormgrad on May 27, 2011, 01:21:39 PM
to be honest with you flinty i had plans to purchase a few figures recently id even considered collecting a new 40k army (elysian drop troops, not very cheap when your planning on including 18 valkyries) But i dont think i will i think i will make a very few select purchases for special projects, the talos being one of them
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on May 27, 2011, 03:59:49 PM
My local store has now got finecast in (independant stockist) and the ones I did have a look at were of stunning quality compared to metal. EDIT: good stunning, not bad.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 27, 2011, 05:42:40 PM
Just flicked through the latest white dwarf at the newsagent on my way home. Excuse my French but the whole "finecast" concept is a big &^%$!*" joke. The name in particular is the most glaring slap in the face. It should be called "Economycast" with the subtitle "We don't care if you prefer metal"
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 28, 2011, 01:35:13 AM
The latest What's New Today (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800012a) has some interesting information.

The first picture shows a sprue... and one quite unlike what I've seen on any metal model.

I don't know whether this would have been usual for metal models (but we never saw them before because they could be clipped off in the factory and the material reused), or a sign of a completely different casting method using new moulds. The latter of which could be bad news for a slow selling range like Inquisitor.

The Durability section is quite interesting. It seems very different to regular resin, abnormally elastic compared anything else I've seen.

Overall, even looking through all the marketing BS, it actually looks like it could be a fair replacement for metal. They're not going to talk me out of my boycott, but I am intrigued.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Nevermore2010 on May 28, 2011, 10:04:21 AM
I think the main problem with this is not the Qualtity of the models (GW minatures have been getting better and better quality wise over the years) but with just what will be converted to Resin, and if its not converted will it be dropped? Add to that the FACT that its no longer a pocket money hobby (more like all my pay hobby) will GW really manage to attract new customers to any of their ranges?

I was considering collecting a new Tau army, but after adding up how much i'd need to spend just to field a small army i was looking at a couple of hundred pounds. I have an inquisitor model i want to do and i can pick up Esienhorn AND covenant on Ebay for 20 and then trade for the other parts i need. Sounds like i'm spending 20 on one model but in reality i could make 2 or three out of the parts, thats almost a full warband and 3 is certainly enough for a quick game.

I feel sorry for those who played Epic and Battlefleet Gothic. Because they dont recive updates and just like Inquisitor they dont spin money for GW so they get ignored.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on May 28, 2011, 11:59:25 AM
Just bought a finecast librarian.. Proper post when i get home :-)

The diff with epic is they have peeps actively sculptin and casting to keep the game alive..
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Vermis on May 28, 2011, 01:09:55 PM
I'm torn on finecast myself.  On one hand I don't have anything against resin (unlike people I know who rant about 'heft') and some of the examples shown by GW look pretty good.  One or two bubbles don't deter me, nor does the flexibility.  On the other hand, some of the examples shown by other people are frickin' horrific, and there's the goofy price hike too.

I want to get at least one to check it out with my own eyes, but it's kind of likely to be only one.

Just bought a finecast librarian.. Proper post when i get home :-)

Ooh.

Quote
The diff with epic is they have peeps actively sculptin and casting to keep the game alive..

Aye.  Don't worry about Epic players!  Take a look at the Tactical Command forums sometime.  Plenty of people still working on rules updates and army lists, modelling, pointing out proxies, etc. etc. - much like The Conclave does for Inquisitor.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Elva on May 28, 2011, 03:52:45 PM
Looking at the Canadian prices online, they seem to range from a couple dollars more for a single model(which seems reasonable) all the way to well over $20+(which is utter bull).

I am curious to see the results, however I'd rather have GW spend their 'hard earned' funds on a worldwide campaign like they did years back instead of fixing something that wasn't really a problem.

Though if I'm going to go for resin models, I'd be more inclined to go forgeworld if there is a suitable alternative, in which case its probably ten times better. Awhell, I'm sure the models and customer reactions will tell for themselves.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: viper_eX on May 28, 2011, 04:36:38 PM

Aye.  Don't worry about Epic players!  Take a look at the Tactical Command forums sometime.  Plenty of people still working on rules updates and army lists, modelling, pointing out proxies, etc. etc. - much like The Conclave does for Inquisitor.

like Charax once said:
It's on the internet now, it will never die :D
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Macabre on May 28, 2011, 05:35:03 PM
No, you've misquoted him, I believe he actually said;

He is on the internet now. He will never die. :p
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Hugh Jarse on May 28, 2011, 06:13:43 PM
I just took my boy into GW Bristol to have a recce at the Finecast..... utter carp is my first impression, I picked up a couple of blisters to compare them and found bubbles, pits, and the pics on there website that Marco Skoll posted have been pre cleaned up, the amount of flash on them is akin to the cheap resin stuff I used to get in small plastic bags years ago for the scale military stuff I do  :-\

Not to mention the price.... seriously??! For a single model..... I remember the days when you got 2, yes 2, Landraiders in a box for one of yer dads crisp five pound notes  ::)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on May 28, 2011, 06:20:55 PM
Were they Epic Land raiders though.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on May 28, 2011, 07:31:04 PM
I just took my boy into GW Bristol to have a recce at the Finecast.....

i was in there this afternoon :) the black-shirt wasn't impressed when he asked what i thought about the move to resin and i answered "i make resin models for a living" :D

got me the Terminator Librarian... wanted Dante but they didn't have him  :'(
um... seriously, i want to know who GW's Chief Mould Maker is so i can slap 'im.
A few bubbles, but horrible flash and those stupid waste-of-resin sprues!

with regard to moulds, it's obvious someone's not playing ball; on the base tab of the librarian the flash / seepage from the loincloth covers up the words on the tab!
i'm pretty sure it's not a typical split-mould and the odd flashlines would suggest a spin cast...

i'm guessing it's a 2 part Biresin (you get Isocyanate and a Polyol / filler mix) with some black dye added (to darken it slightly) and then an extra filler powder added; the texture and weight of the resin isn't a "normal" quality methunks and this would explain the few bubbles.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Hugh Jarse on May 28, 2011, 07:32:32 PM
Were they Epic Land raiders though.

Nope, your full on 40K scale 'oldy, first world war styley, tracks totaly exposed' ones with 2 nasty looking Las cannons on spindley little sticks sticking out either side  ;)

I suppose if you compare those castings  of old Orks, IG and Space Marines to the new finecast stuff GW have come on leaps and bounds  :D
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Hugh Jarse on May 28, 2011, 07:43:47 PM
i was in there this afternoon :) the black-shirt wasn't impressed when he asked what i thought about the move to resin and i answered "i make resin models for a living" :D



Ha ha! Makes I laugh, they don't like it up 'em  :D

The spoty little herbert with glasses on that pounced on I as soon as we walked through the door wasn't much impressed either when he asked if I collected, to which I replied 'yes, since I was 13'. He replied 'I've been collecting since I was 10!!', I couldn't help myself and said 'Nice, but I'm 42, how old are you?'.... He started talking to my son at that point.... I think cuz they had more in common, what with the age gap being smaller 'n' all  ;)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: precinctomega on May 28, 2011, 08:12:53 PM
I was initially pretty "meh" about the resin move.  It's something other companies (like PP and, yes, Spartan Games of course) have been doing for a while.  The "finecast" label isn't going to impress me and I don't see it impressing anyone else with a vision on the hobby wider than GW.

However, I was reminded the other day that there is a surprisingly large population out there that doesn't know about the wider hobby world.  It's something they do with a couple of mates, with no idea that there are clubs, tournaments, forums, conventions or - indeed - other games and manufacturers.  So for those people, I can imagine that the shift to resin is a fairly big deal.

When it comes to the typical character model, I'm not that fussed.  I actually like the sprues.  Resin is notoriously frangible, and mounting the parts in sprues will ensure that they remain intact despite handling.  Where I'm most interested is in the largest models.  Seeing the Orc Wyvern in resin was what put this into my mind, especially as I was, at that very moment, unpacking a boxful of white metal Tyranid big gribblies from a client and sighing at the amount of metal I would have to clean up and the hassle of pinning, gap-filling and counterbalancing I had to look forward to.  A resin Hive Tyrant is unquestionably a Good Thing.

If (BIG "if") they eventually remaster the INQ range and release it in resin, I might well dump a fair whack of my own cash back in GW's pockets.

However, what with the ridiculous price rise and this idiotic new sales policy they've put in place, short of a renewal of the complete INQ range (in resin), GW won't be seeing any of my personal expenditure in the immediate future.  Skrapyard, Infinity, Malifaux, Relics and Black Scorpion pirates and cowboys will be inhabiting by non-INQ gaming future for the foreseeable.

R.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: DapperAnarchist on May 28, 2011, 08:26:35 PM
Interesting that some people are getting bad quality, but some (check wiltrichs.com for a positive review) are getting good quality...

But Hugh, you are so right about GW staff. The managers are usually to ones to talk to, as they aren't quite so "look! A customer. I must speak to them, and say important things! like how Dark Eldar were introduced in 4th Edition!"
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 28, 2011, 08:31:24 PM
I really don't think this is going to work as a marketing strategy.

You can buy a resin 'finecast' set of Vampire Blood Knights for 61, right ... okay, or you can buy an entire Kings of War army for 40.00, over an hundred well cast plastic models, including elites and war-machines.

61 for five minatures? Really? That's like 2 xbox games, three if you are frugal. That's a truly absurd price. Madness.  

It's so much, I'd balk at paying it and I work for a living!
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 28, 2011, 11:23:06 PM
How do you guys feel about this pic and the quote from the GW website (bolded some)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/Jazz_is_for_losers/Random%20stuff/m1830291a_Blog270511_11_XL.jpg)
Speaks for itself but reading the Games-workshop article on Failcast is still a bit depressing.

Quote
Dan: I can honestly say that this model was one of the nicest figures I have ever painted - it was just so easy to work with. The resin is very easy to clean up and a real joy to paint. Sometimes I can cut corners when I'm painting to try and get a unit done quicker, but I knew I had to spend every spare second I had between Tuesday and today painting it. An interesting thing I did find was when painting the cape. I needed to paint the cape hood, which was behind the head of the hammer. Solution: simply bend the hammer slightly out of place to paint behind it. This material is just pure awesome to work with!
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Shannow on May 28, 2011, 11:26:28 PM
It feels,,,,,,un-natural,,,,,,,,
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: viper_eX on May 29, 2011, 01:33:52 AM
since it's so easy to bend, does the colour still hold or does it splinter?
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Gestalt on May 29, 2011, 02:09:59 AM
Don't believe the hype!
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 29, 2011, 03:03:26 AM
Well, I actually made excuses to be over at my local yesterday to take a look at the new models.

Peering at several blisters, and generally trying not to break into laughter at the prices (I think they're meant to be a joke), the overall quality was actually fairly impressive - quite a bit better in person than any of the pictures GW has on their site.

And I hate to say it, but they do seem to be an improvement - looking at things like Lelith, the Avatar and the Emperor's Champion (all of which I own in metal, all for different odd reasons*), the casts are very visibly crisper than before. Couple that with the insane talent of some of GW's sculptors, and there are things amongst the range which are up amongst the best commercial models I've ever seen.

*I should finish Lelith. She's still on the modelling table, and was being turned into a 28mm version of my DH Assassin - so basically got forgotten when we went from having a campaign day to VoIP sessions and had no reason for a mini any more. Still, no sense in wasting expensive metal, might as well finish her some time.

Some of the older sculpts didn't hold up as well though, the new material showing up flaws in the sculpt that might not have been previously visible. But it does speak quite a lot about the material that it can reproduce the original greens that accurately.

How do you guys feel about this pic and the quote from the GW website
I did get my hands on some of the store models, and while I wasn't about to do a serious bend test on them, the material was quite eerily elastic compared to my normal experience of resins.

I have done the "bend the model a bit" thing when painting some of my greens, so it's certainly do-able. I wouldn't recommend it though - there's always a chance you'll get a bad cast or slightly stiffer resin mix that will just snap and leave you with a repair job.

The black-shirt wasn't impressed when he asked what I thought about the move to resin and I answered "I make resin models for a living"
I got asked something similar. However, my tact filter was in place, so I didn't respond with some snarky comment about the pricing.

Although, I did still end up correcting one of the other customers when they listed the order of materials costs as Plastic -> Metal -> Resin, but as the staff were within earshot, it came with an (only partially true) addendum that the new prices represented changeover costs too.

I often run into that kind of trouble in GWs, wanting to say all these things which would be fair game on forums, but which I shouldn't be saying in store - either because it's a complaint or a rumour/leak that hasn't yet been confirmed.

~~~~~

And on the notes of rumours, just how many nay-sayers were there when I made a topic telling people that the news was there was a production halt that might be the start of a switch to resin?  ::)

I don't copy over just any old flimsy half rumours from Warseer... I copy across the ones which would most ruin my credibility if they're wrong. :P
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: GAZKUL on May 29, 2011, 05:30:40 PM
I have noticed that with some companies like JMD the sculpt quality is far superior to GW with much less residue and better detail so am not expecting much from Finecast. I'll have a bit of a look but am unlikely to buy any of it mostly due to the fact that i have no money ATM and if i did then Historex have got one or two things.......

I just hope they don't ask me my opinion about them cause i'll probably end up saying something brutally honest about the overpricing compared to the better quality miniatures available elsewhere.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Elva on May 29, 2011, 09:37:15 PM
I really don't think this is going to work as a marketing strategy.

You can buy a resin 'finecast' set of Vampire Blood Knights for 61, right ... okay, or you can buy an entire Kings of War army for 40.00, over an hundred well cast plastic models, including elites and war-machines.

61 for five minatures? Really? That's like 2 xbox games, three if you are frugal. That's a truly absurd price. Madness.  

It's so much, I'd balk at paying it and I work for a living!

I once thought that bloodknights could not get anymore expensive. I now look back at that time Nostalgically.

It feels,,,,,,un-natural,,,,,,,,

Picking up a brilliantly painted Empire Captain and having him feel lighter than a Clanrat did not sit well with me either.

I still like the forgeworld models better. After putting together some of my Elysians(which arrived just yesterday in fact) I can say that they are far better then that 'futuristic' 'lighter than air' stuff they're using. GW has more important things to fix than something that isn't broke. *playtesting and better marketing strategies*cough*cough*
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Swarbie on May 30, 2011, 11:17:31 AM
Not too sure about Finecast. Sure they look good, and might make Inq28 easier (easier to cut through a resin model than a metal one, I'm sure), but the price increase hits the people in Australia and New Zealand pretty bad. $39 for a Skulltaker model? Not a chance, buddy.

GW also appears to be saying that you don't need to wear a mask to work safely with their resin. I hope to the gods they've researched this fully and got it right, because otherwise things could be bad . . .
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Molotov on May 30, 2011, 12:09:12 PM
[Finecast] might make Inq28 easier (easier to cut through a resin model than a metal one, I'm sure)

I'm certainly intrigued, but withholding judgement. Despite the facade presented on the GW site, I'd hope that the higher-ups are working on perfecting the process. The prospect of some of the Inquisitorial metals being far, far easier to convert is certainly something I'm really interested in!
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Swarbie on May 30, 2011, 12:11:04 PM
Yeah, so I might finally get somewhere with the physical side to Inquisitor :P
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 30, 2011, 12:39:07 PM
I don't know what to think, I will have to see for myself, when I happen to be near a store.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on May 30, 2011, 03:44:16 PM
following SteveB (http://spyglassasylum.blogspot.com/2011/05/citadel-finecast.html)s "review" Here's (http://buildyourimagination.co.uk/files/finecast.JPG) my pic.
it's strangely flexible, fair few bubbles and some naff mouldlines, but luckily there was the choice of a few.. there are Worse Horror Stories (http://s1106.photobucket.com/albums/h376/mechanicalhorizon/?action=view&current=P1010064.jpg#!oZZ17QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1106.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh376%2Fmechanicalhorizon%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DP1010118.jpg)...
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Shannow on May 30, 2011, 03:57:32 PM
That is a horror story and a half! Worrying it got through QC, or rather what QC!?
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ulgavitch on May 30, 2011, 04:04:21 PM
Quote
there are Worse Horror Stories...

Gav, that's a snuff film, and I worry about what will happen if the younger members of the conclave were to see it. They're not as hardened to this stuff as we are. ;-)
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Necris on May 30, 2011, 07:10:19 PM
Well I'm not impressed

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1190022a

I bought the Empire Captain on saturday and had to return to the store because his hammer was missing after a rather long winded argument with the store manager (one I have already complained about recently to GW HQ) I got a replacement

When I got home and opened said mini I discovered that the arm his hammer was missing the forearm section of his arm (not a big issue to GS to fix it but a big issue as I'd just bought a shiny new fine cast mini and hell I shouldn't have to fix it!)

I took it to another local store and had it swapped but again had to swap the dammed thing while in store because of the number of breakages on the mini (Gun, feathers, hammer)

I got given another mini as a means of apology (Vampire Lord/Lady) which seems to be fine save for the sword appearing to be bent (I haven't as of yet had her out to check this in more detail).

Not to fussed about the amount of flash on the mini but some bits of the captain are very fragile (the knives in his plumage for example) and just seen destined to break off before too long

No I'm not impressed at all.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ancelyn on May 30, 2011, 07:37:16 PM
I can't believe you paid 9.50 for that :o You were mugged. GW are rapidly becoming a company that it is impossible to buy things from. Altogether now..."RIP-OFF".
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 30, 2011, 08:29:30 PM
Many people seem pretty determined to carry on funneling funds to this company.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Necris on May 30, 2011, 09:46:57 PM
I am happy to pay for minis from GW, I have been a fan of their products for over 20 years and will continue to be despite the price increases. They are a company after all and the first and foremost goal of any company is to make money.

I am more concerned with GW's seemingly diminishing customer services and the fact that utter *expletives* can get jobs as managers when I can't

I have also explored other games like confrontation, warmachine, infinity and flames of war and to be honest they are as equally prices for example a warmachine starter set cost me 35 and I got 3 minis for 1 faction so if I wanted another they would be another 35 and then I could have a game, in reflection for 60ish you get a starter game from GW with 2 armies. Likewise I've spent as much on my flames of war army as I did on my last 40K army and I've played with them twice where as I am currently playing in a series of campaigns with my 40K army
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ferran on May 30, 2011, 10:13:44 PM
Aren't you a dentist or something? Or was that VanHelser? Anyway, even given the relatively high amount of spare scratch available to the average dentist I'd still say that GW products aren't value for money. I know that my own dentist buys a lot of, err, marching powder shall we say (since I know the guy that sells it to him) and even given the rather high expense of such a habit I'd still consider it to be a lesser waste of money than GW products. I take your point though about other companies and their equally unreasonable prices, I suppose it's down to perception a lot of the time, eg I recently bought the avatars of war daemon champion for a tenner and though I can't say I thought it was good value I was just about able to convince myself that it was an acceptable price for a very occasional luxury purchase. Most of the time I'm just sticking to using the large pile I've already built up over the years. I wouldn't consider a nicely sculpted but rather light, bendy, flimsy piece of plasticresin to be an acceptable trade for 10 (I think you have to consider each case individually, fair enough if the current GW starter sets are 60 that might be fine but it's irrelevant if I'm buying single miniatures to paint up then shelve).
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Macabre on May 31, 2011, 12:13:54 AM
If Gav is right about this new finecast being Biresin then by weight, GW is making roughly 560% profit from the cost of material to retail price on each miniature (assuming of course on the median weight of most GW 28mm single miniatures), even accounting for the cost of labour on production for each (mass produced) miniature and assuming that the production staff are reasonably well paid, GW are still looking at about 450% profit per batch.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on May 31, 2011, 12:42:26 AM
I am happy to pay for minis from GW, I have been a fan of their products for over 20 years and will continue to be despite the price increases. They are a company after all and the first and foremost goal of any company is to make money.
I could know someone for decades and think them my very best friend, but that doesn't mean I'd excuse them stabbing me in the back.
GW has been behaving appallingly towards their customers on all fronts for a long time, and no matter how much I've enjoyed/still enjoy their products the line has to be drawn somewhere - otherwise they'll just get away with it and keep getting away with it.

As I see it, they are now asking me to pay not only an exorbitant quantity of money, but to pay with my dignity and self-respect as well.
At those prices, they're either laughing at me behind my back or they're idiots. And if I choose to buy from people I know must be either charlatans or morons, then I'm just degrading myself.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Shannow on May 31, 2011, 12:46:53 AM
The phrase 'fool me one shame on you, fool me twice shame on me' springs to mind
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on May 31, 2011, 08:22:03 AM
following SteveB (http://spyglassasylum.blogspot.com/2011/05/citadel-finecast.html)s "review" Here's (http://buildyourimagination.co.uk/files/finecast.JPG) my pic.
it's strangely flexible, fair few bubbles and some naff mouldlines, but luckily there was the choice of a few.. there are Worse Horror Stories (http://s1106.photobucket.com/albums/h376/mechanicalhorizon/?action=view&current=P1010064.jpg#!oZZ17QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1106.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh376%2Fmechanicalhorizon%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DP1010118.jpg)...

That's a real horror story.

GW is expensive but when one has enough disposable income(or parents who do) it remains easily affordable.
I'm actually happy nowadays that my girlfriend and I have a large pile of models we haven't painted yet. That pile even makes price rises a good thing, finally the pile will shrink.

Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Van Helser on May 31, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Aren't you a dentist or something? Or was that VanHelser? Anyway, even given the relatively high amount of spare scratch available to the average dentist I'd still say that GW products aren't value for money.

I'm the one with the scrubs and the sharp tools, and probably a good whack of disposable income for indulging on little resin men.  That said, I haven't bought a 40k figure since 2008 that wasn't for Inquisitor modelling, and won't be for any time soon.  A large part of that is to do with no time to play 40k, but a lot of it is to do with costs.  There is an alarming lack of sense with GW's recent price increases, and if people like me are baulking at the cost of figures, then what chance does the core demographic have with keeping up with the latest releases?  Considering you can pick up a fairly new Xbox 360 game for 20 quid that can give you days of game play, why on earth would you part with hundreds of pounds for a new army that will require months of painting? 

As far as the new material is concerned, I think that there will be an improvement in quality as time goes on.  I think they've rushed the transition and should have started with a couple of popular models, perfected the casting techniques and then moved on to other figures.  I think the main benefit is the lack of weight - no more pinning, which can only be good.  The price increase, while questionable, is entirely in line with what any business will do when releasing something new.  I think we'll all be interested in seeing what happens to GW's share price over the next financial year...

Ruaridh
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Necris on May 31, 2011, 09:58:53 PM
As I said Marco the price and minis are not an issue for me

It's the declining quality of customer services, there was once a time when I could phone a troll and spend an hour talking about the hobby but alas all of the trolls have been put down and replaced with sales representatives who care little about the hobbyist save for their card number, I've forgotten the last time when I was asked what I was working on when placing a mail order over the phone.

It's getting the same way in certain stores I visit one such store the aforementioned manager couldn't care less, he's only interested in meeting his sales KPI's, he has few young bloods who's only option is his store for their introductions to the hobby and he only 'suffers' their presence because he has to as one of his KPI's

On the flip side the store I consider my local (which is further away from my house) has an awesome manager he knows kids and can engage with them, he is interested in what each and every customer collects and their plans with each purchase (genuinely) and can remember what people collect, the only time he's ever tried to up sell to me was a alternative to a conversion I was working on. He makes the time for his customers and will even extend his work day to play a game (I've known him keep his store open till 10pm if there was a good game running.)

It is a shame that the latter manager are becoming rarer

Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Macabre on May 31, 2011, 11:18:58 PM
I echo Tony's sentiments, I was banned from the Coventry store by the former manager, purely because he'd banned all SG games within the store and knew that all I played was Inquisitor and didn't want my influence 'corrupting' (his words) the rookie gamers away from the three core games.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on June 01, 2011, 06:26:49 AM
I echo Tony's sentiments, I was banned from the Coventry store by the former manager, purely because he'd banned all SG games within the store and knew that all I played was Inquisitor and didn't want my influence 'corrupting' (his words) the rookie gamers away from the three core games.
I know they have every right to do that, but it just seems wrong. People should be allowed to see the SGs as they are, not bas a sub-standard branch of GW.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on June 01, 2011, 07:03:17 AM
[MODE=Admin]ok, this is getting way off topic here; back to resin please...[/MODE]
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on June 01, 2011, 09:24:40 AM
@ VanHelser, you will at least have the skills to fill holes(sorry for the incredibly bad attempt at a joke)

A friend of mine went to a store to get something for his chaos marines, he told me that almost all of their finecast models ha some serious casting probblems beyond the skills of many people to fix.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on June 01, 2011, 11:07:20 AM
And a LGS told me gw accept no returns for exeptional flashing..
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Ancelyn on June 01, 2011, 11:33:06 AM
I see two problems with this range, the cost to the consumer and the quality of the casting. I am sure GW will improve the casting process, given time and practice. Although it is very worrying that they are distributing sub-standard miniatures with no evident quality control... ship 'em out and bugger the customer?  The Outrageous WTF pricing policy of GW is a whole seperate can of worms.
   It would be nice to see ]I[nquisitor Finecast models, if only for the ease of conversion options.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on June 01, 2011, 01:52:14 PM
It's sort of a shame that all the rejects are being junked (whether that means they're going in the bin or back to the factory to be ground down, I don't know), because I'd not mind getting some of them for cheap.

None of the miscasts I've seen would be that hard to fix (by my standards, at least), so I'd happily fix a flaw or two if I were getting them at a "B-grade" price.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: Dolnikan on June 01, 2011, 05:55:11 PM
Even I might get some at a reduced price, but they aren't because the company would lose profits that way, making a model costs them very little, the costs are in the overhead. They believe that they will always sell a specific ammount of something so it would eat away their profits.
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: greenstuff_gav on June 01, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
its worth noting all our miscasts go into the bin (or employees pockets  ;D ) 'cause you can grind resin down to a powder and use that to bulk out the unmixed resin but for the simple factor of time and re-working out the mix ratio it's not actually worth the effort :O
Title: Re: Citadel Finecast
Post by: MarcoSkoll on June 01, 2011, 08:33:06 PM
Yeah, I know it's not going to happen. It's just a shame to see models which'd be an easy fix getting junked when I'd give them a home. But I'm certainly not having them at the full price.