Ok, so my Inquisitor is a Xanthite, and I was wondering what the reaction would be if I gave him a Dark Eldar Klaive as his main close combat weapon. The background is that he was fighting against them on the battlefield (not in the =][= version), and ended up fighting an Incubi, which he killed with his psychic powers, and took the Klaive as a battle trophy.
I am also considering having him building an imperial copy of a Klaive after seeing them in action on the batlefield.
The profile would be as follows:
Reach: 3
Damage: 3D10+2
PP: -20%
Weight/encumbrance: 35
Can be used one-handed with damage 2D10 and P-25%.
Thoughts? Comments? Scathing attacks? All welcome.
Taking a xenonweapon in combat as a trophy seems not uncommon, using it more so, but fine for a xanthite. An imperial copy sounds good as well.
The main part of the background I'm questioning is whether a human, even one who has made it to the rank of inquisitor, would be able to survive a hand-to-hand clash with an Incubi, who are described as being almos perfect swordsmen. Also, a xenos weapon would not be made for human hands, so would be difficult to use.
A copy would be cruder, and not as good a weapon, but could be built to comfortably fit a human.
How the inquisitor defeated the incubus is explained. I just wonder how he encountered them and ow he got the weapon to work.
He's a member of the Ordo Xenos, and so he was investigating reports of disappearances in and around an agri-world, which turned out to be the handiwork of certain morally questionable space elves. Upon discovering this, he cobbled together an army out of imperial guard regiments from nearby sectors, and through the use of the Emperor's tarot, was able to bring the dark Eldar to battle during one of their raids. The Incubi, being the elite killing machines that they are, immediately singled out the most powerful unit in the army to test themselves against- the inquisitor and his retinue.
As to how the weapon works, the weapon itself is simply lethally sharp metal sheathed in a disruption field, much like an imperial power weapon. I imagine that the inquisitor would take a look at a book of Eldar runes from a library of xenos species (most likely with neither the consent nor knowledge of the owner), and try to match eldar runes to ones on the weapon until he knew which ones turned it on and off.
If its the one I'm thinking of then why not just say "counts as power halberd"?
It is just a Glaive after all.
Because I think that the klaive is probably the best my favourite close combat weapon games workshop ever designed, and having a human carry one is the best reason I can come up with for including one in my character group (to me, warband sounds too millitant, though I use it to mean battle-retinue) short of having a close combat monster in ancient armour, with a broken soulstone which handily incpacitates enemies on his chest, and is also very old, and unfortunately, tends to kill everything it sees for the hell of it (which sums up the incubi).
I see your concern, and might just do a "counts as" to minimise confusion. Acutally, taking a look at the dark eldar model, the klaive is taller than a standard 28mm model, so a power halberd seems great, though I might reduce the damage to 3D10, as it just seems more right to me. Saves a lot of work with stat changes too. Thanks, Heidfield!
Oh, and one more thing, please refer to it as a "glorified glaive" ;D
Sharp blade on the end of a stick designed for cutting and stabbing... not much glorified about that :P
The klaive itself is nowhere near to a halberd. There's no stick, for a start. It's basically a mahoosive blade with handles set into it at various points, and a disruption field generator near the hilt. I would actually say it has more in common with a long, thin cleaver than a halberd, as the blade runs all the way down.
Of course, the 54mm version is going to require a huge amount of filing to get the blade looking like it might actually cut something, rather than the rounded strip of green stuff which I start with when sculpting weapons.
I'm probably misremembering then - I was thinking that the Incubi models had a polearm weapon - though from what you're describing it would probably still end up being used like one (in the same way as a bat'leth ends up being used like an axe).
You're thinking of the old Incubi models. they've been redone, and I honestly almost drooled when I forst saw them.
Anyway, here's the link: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900141a
So, the glaive has basically become a very large power sword? I really should try to keep up with those changes. Good luck with the filing work.
What you have there is a sword, isn't it? Probably a two handed one at that - even if it's light enough it'd be unwieldy in one hand. Given that, the profile seems fair enough - frostblades do the same, and they're 2 handed power swords. Not sure why he's not using a good imperial powersword though - his weapon of choice would raise a few eyebrows. Maybe it was subsequently 'cleansed' (and rendered less effective in the process) by the mechanicus.
Just because an incubi is an almost perfect swordsman that doesn't mean they're unkillable, and inquisitors are noted for their resourcefulness - the background doesn't claim it was a fair fight, after all.
In the background, he killed the incubi with his psychic powers, but before he did this, which he was forced to resort to after the Incubi smashed his power sword, though the strain of using psychic powers while being assailed by negarie emotions from the incubi's tormentor meant that he was recovering for a good three or four years from the mental strain.
I would imagine that as a Xanthite, he saw no reason to have the sword cleansed, especially if it would reduce its effectiveness. I have a couple of interesting ideas regarding scenarios where the Klaive is stolen, which might male for an interesting way to bring the mechanicus into a campaign.
And thankyou Dolkinian, the filing work is going to take a fair amount of time. I tried a 28mm version, to try out ways to build one, and that required about half an hour of filing just to get it to a reasonable slope of the cutting edge.
At the moment, my main worry is that I'm not representing that it was made for an Eldar to use, and so would have grips and spacing not suited for a human. An imperial copy would not suffer from these problems, but would be unlikely to be made by the imperium, as the mechanicus tend to be resistant to new ideas, especially ones which suggest making something untested and new. Making a copy of a xenos weapon rather than a blessed imperial design may well be enough for them to report my inquisitor for heresy! An alien weapon carries the risk of denunciation as well, but at least there would be no awkward "it was made, the details aren't important" in the background.
A Glaive is a polearm with a sharp blade designed for cutting and stabbing (as opposed to weapons like the Halberd which has a heavy blade designed for cutting or a Bill with its rather more cleaver-like blade).
These new Incubi however appear to be equipped with two handed swords with a heavy, piercing, hook at the tip. As heads, hands and weapons (particularly weapons, your average Imperial Guardsman carries a weapon at least five feet in length – even taking into account the upscaling of models in general) are upscaled in Citadel models I would simply call it a two handed powersword (erroneously listed as a Frostblade (could be worse, it could be erroneously listed as a power Falchion*)).
The Incubi used to be a bodyguard unit, though whether that's still the case I couldn't say, so polearms made sense for them; two handed swords though are a weapon more suited to shock troops, sacrificing defence for offence... Of course more modern weapons and tactics call for different considerations for guard units, there's little need to fend off cavalry in the 41st Millennium but one would have to expect long range engagement and heavy protection...
The stated intent of Gamesworkshop with the creation of the Klaive was to give incubi a weapon more akin to the weapons of the Eldar aspect warriors. They wanted something that would appear more as a weapon that (once mastered) would or could lead to an artistic and seemingly invincible style of fighting. That last line is editorialized but basically they wanted to get away from a heavy kind of polearm which (while practical in some situations) lacked flexibility. They didn't want Incubi to just be heavily armored bodyguards, but the Dark Eldar version of Aspect Warriors. That is why they gave the Klaives three grip points so that it can wielded in a variety of ways (meaning adaptable to multiple situations).
Now there are two ways to look at this. One could analyze from a practical standpoint whether or not the weapon would accomplish those goals from the view of someone with extensive training in hand to hand and melee weapon combat. From that front I have no idea how the Klaive would stack up because I lack any kind of training in the aforementioned field (others may not). The other way to look at this is through a combination of intent (GW's intent) and the unknowable (to us as 21st Century people) nature of the 40K universe. GW said that these weapons are amazingly adaptable close combat weapons and so they must be. Any attempt by us to poke holes in this theory are inherently wrong because we fail to take into account to differences between human and eldar physiology, both in their reaction time, flexibility, innate ability to master things in weeks (or days) that would take a human a lifetime.
So that's how I see it. For reference on what I said re: GW's intent you would have to go back and find the videos released leading up to the newest DE release that were put on the daily GW online blog section. There were a couple of them (maybe up to 3?) and they discussed a lot of the ideas around the new units.
Also, on the front of being able to use DE technology I think there are largely obstacles beyond finding the "on switch." Because of the differences between eldar and humans it is entirely possible that humans would lack the ability to, say, send a psychic impulse to the weapon needed to turn it on (or a psychic human may not be able to send impulse in the right "warp frequency" or their tongue cannot pronounce the words to activate it, etc, there could be many reasons).
I also don't want to step on the whole idea of a psycher being able to off an Incubi. I'm not saying it can't happen but there tend to be lots of characters in the 40K-verse that had odds-defying defeats of seemingly invincible foes. There are plenty of impressive ways to beat the odds without saying "I killed a daemon-prince/chaos space marine/super-elite alien warrior." This is more to taste. For my money I find a character who somehow (perhaps in a cowardly manner) survived an attack by these creatures and remains in awe of their ability to kill. They could then try and emulate aspects of their effectiveness in an attempt to learn from their prowess and turn it against them (in this case by convincing/commissioning a tech-priest weapons-master to create a non-traditional power sword with multiple grips. The inquisitor then obsesses over battle-field footage of the Incubi in an attempt to decipher their enigmatic fighting style).
Again, that last bit is more to taste but it just seems a lot more interesting to me that way rather than having another against the odds win by an Inquisitor against a warrior that is supposedly non-hyperbolically top of the warrior food chain.
I think people are getting confused between a Glaive with a G (which is indeed a blade on a stick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BladeOnAStick), contrary to what the French would have you believe) and a Klaive with a K (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpellMyNameWithAnS) (which is what Incubi carry these days, in lieu of the old Punishers)
As for why an Inquisitor happens to be carrying one? As an alternative to using psychic powers, you could just say he shot the Incubus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhyDontYouJustShootHim) and stole his weapon. Simples. Incubi aren't exactly known for shooting people any more, thus invoking Combat Pragmatist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombatPragmatist) on the Xanthite's part.
Not really a confusion of names, more a confusion as to the models referred to :-)
my only comment is that it's often stated that eldar and dark eldar weapons are usually gene-locked so that either only the owner or only a member of the eldar race can actually activate the weapon.
True, there probably shouldn't be any magic technological functionality when used by a human, but remember, this is still a very large sword/thing and is still going to leave a stain if swung properly, and considering its dark eldar, it probably has some sort of jagged/monofilament/very vicious edge which makes it more dangerous than just a normal two-handed sword, its not beyond belief that it could be a very useful weapon to an inquisitor
My thoughts exactly. Just because it has a disruption field, doesn't mean that an Incubi wouldn't sharpen his weapon- it would just make it more useful if the field is somehow disabled. My inquisitor being a Xanthite, he might have kept a finger or two from the Incubi to avoid the gene-locking problems...
The Mechanicus comes in a multitude of flavours - I see no reason why some HereTek or other non-conformist member or group of the Priesthood could not have manufactured/copied/emulated/reverse engineered a Klaive and tweaked it to make it human operable. Its possible that this may have happened a considerable time ago, and your Character is not the only person to have one...da, da, Dahhh!
A copy means it might not be quite as impressive as an original, but I don't suppose there are many still living who have close, first-hand knowledge. It might also give you some scope for a few interesting quirks or glitches, psychic bleed effects/flashbacks, random power surges/failures, emissions capable of being picked up by nearby DE and so forth.
Well, my inquisitor is a telekine, so there's definitely some mileage in the whole "psychic phenomena" aspect. Maybe the atrocities the weapon has borne witness to, as well as long exposure to the tormenter of the incubi, could have impregnated the metal, and sometimes overwhelm the bearer with images of death, torture and hopelessness.
Alternatively, the imperial idea would be more along the lines of "shady deals with a less-than non-heretical mechanicus figure", resulting in a weapon which is fairly useful, carries recognised imperial markings (thus circumventing the whole alien weapon = instant heresy argument). I am still reluctant to do this because another of my planned characters has done exactly this, but for organs and bionics, not weapons. However, as it is imperial technology, it is less than perfect. I like Flinty's idea of power surges, so maybe it could cut out if it deals above a certain amount of damage (20+ seems fair, as it does 3D10+2 damage in my current rules), representing the disruption field being overloaded. It would probably stay cut out until the game ended, only doing 3D6 damage for the rest of the scenario.
Quote from: Alyster Wick on January 15, 2012, 04:47:40 PMBecause of the differences between eldar and humans it is entirely possible that humans would lack the ability to, say, send a psychic impulse to the weapon needed to turn it on (or a psychic human may not be able to send impulse in the right "warp frequency" or their tongue cannot pronounce the words to activate it, etc, there could be many reasons).
It won't be psychoreactive. The Dark Eldar, due to the continual leeching of their souls by Slaanesh, and the threat of mishap involved in using psychic powers, have as a culture allowed their natural psychic talent to atrophy. In essence, the Dark Eldar aren't psychic, unlike their Craftworlder cousins.
As a consequence, Dark Eldar weaponry does not react to psychic impulses like Craftworld Eldar technology does.
I'm not sure about the "Alien Weapon = Instant Heresy" argument. That certainly applies to the commonry, but the Peers of the Imperium break all sorts of rules, much as the kings and nobility of medieval and renaissance Europe would impose strict rules on the ordinary people, while not following them themselves. An Inquisitor known for certain to be virtuous, faithful, and committed, would be quite able to carry a Klaive as a trophy, proof that he had shown his superiority over the foul Eldar (that he used a Baneblade to do it neither here nor there...).
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on February 11, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
I'm not sure about the "Alien Weapon = Instant Heresy" argument. That certainly applies to the commonry, but the Peers of the Imperium break all sorts of rules, much as the kings and nobility of medieval and renaissance Europe would impose strict rules on the ordinary people, while not following them themselves. An Inquisitor known for certain to be virtuous, faithful, and committed, would be quite able to carry a Klaive as a trophy, proof that he had shown his superiority over the foul Eldar (that he used a Baneblade to do it neither here nor there...).
When it comes to Peers of the Imperium, nothing is ever clear-cut.
A good rule of thumb for such esteemed individuals is that they can do anything they want, so long as nobody who disagrees and is also influential enough to stop them finds out.
The influential Magos Automachus Gyre and the feared Inquisitor Elias Krael may benefit greatly from the Cold Trade run by renowned Rogue Trader Nathaniel Vort, but they must all be cautious when dealing with Cardinal Kregory Inassis, Lord Grand Marshal Naxander von Straussen, and Inquisitor Helgardt Deuron, whose more puritanical leanings may result in conflicts both physical and political.
In most cases, the ability of a Peer of the Imperium to defy the laws of the Imperium rests primarily in his influence, and his ability to keep his vices and illicit inclinations away from the attentions of the more influential.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 11, 2012, 04:26:48 PM
It won't be psychoreactive. The Dark Eldar, due to the continual leeching of their souls by Slaanesh, and the threat of mishap involved in using psychic powers, have as a culture allowed their natural psychic talent to atrophy. In essence, the Dark Eldar aren't psychic, unlike their Craftworlder cousins.
As a consequence, Dark Eldar weaponry does not react to psychic impulses like Craftworld Eldar technology does.
This does make a lot of sense. I know they generally didn't practice any psychomancy (is that a word?) as the increase in psychic potential would make them a juicy target. I didn't know if it extended so far as to preclude them from using psychic powers as a means of communication (the way their craftworld counterparts literally augment their speech with psychic impulses as part of their language, see Shadow Point for reference).
However the lack of wargear made from psychoreactive materials such as their craftworld brethren would seem to support that (while not definitively proving anything it certainly bolsters that view). Just curious though, do you have a source on that? I wouldn't dream of questioning N01 on anything eldar related, just wanted to know if you drew that conclusion by cobbling together your encyclopedic knowledge or if it is stated plainly in text somewhere.
In either event, the new DE codex leaves the door open for a certain amount of warp-play in the Dark City. Daemonic pacts are mentioned in at least one story and it is strongly implied that Mandrakes are Dark Eldar who dabbled too deeply in sorcery. Not that this means the DE maintain enough psychic ability to still use psychic impulses, but if the canon doesn't explicitly say then I think some of these updates could be used to open the door to that possibility.
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread but I think it's a relevant point (if a little lost in minutia).
Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 16, 2012, 03:05:29 AM
In either event, the new DE codex leaves the door open for a certain amount of warp-play in the Dark City. Daemonic pacts are mentioned in at least one story and it is strongly implied that Mandrakes are Dark Eldar who dabbled too deeply in sorcery. Not that this means the DE maintain enough psychic ability to still use psychic impulses, but if the canon doesn't explicitly say then I think some of these updates could be used to open the door to that possibility.
For the sake of making sure everyone's on the same page, I'd just like to remind everyone that sorcery and psychic ability don't have to go hand-in-hand. Quite a lot of sorcerers have no psychic talent (see Dark Heresy: Disciples of the Dark Gods).
Also worth pointing out that any out-and-out Warp play in the Dark City is likely to be jumped on very quickly by more pragmatic Dark Eldar that would prefer it if Slaanesh didn't suddenly have an easy way in.
Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 16, 2012, 03:05:29 AMHowever the lack of wargear made from psychoreactive materials such as their craftworld brethren would seem to support that (while not definitively proving anything it certainly bolsters that view). Just curious though, do you have a source on that? I wouldn't dream of questioning N01 on anything eldar related, just wanted to know if you drew that conclusion by cobbling together your encyclopedic knowledge or if it is stated plainly in text somewhere.
Extrapolation from two related points - page 5 of Codex: Dark Eldar explains the lack of psychic talent amongst Dark Eldar (as I've already described), and then in the following paragraph mentions that Dark Eldar weaponry is manufactured, rather than psychically grown. A section later in the book explains that this is typically done by countless millions of slaves labouring in munitions factories.
Eldar technology employs psychic impulses because it's inherently psychoreactive - that's how the Eldar interact with the universe. The materials each item is grown from, and the manner of its intended use, all combine to produce a blend of form and function that responds to the minds of Eldar - that's how it always has been for the Eldar as a species. The Dark Eldar have diverged metaphysically from what might be perceived as traditional Eldar nature.
The Dark Eldar use slave labour to manufacture their technology. It isn't psychoreactive, and thus can't respond to psychic impulses like Craftworlder devices do.
This is extrapolated from WHFB, but in that system, the language of the Dark Elves is a bastardised version of Elvish script, with some different characters. However, an Elf would still be able to get the gist of Dark Elf script by reading it (Brunner reference). I would assume that this would apply in 40k, as the Eldar are simply elves in spess, and having a common ancestry language, and thus would posess several cognates and near-cognates, such as French and Spanish do today. There may also be false cognates, but they're a given in almost any language. What is most important is the root alphabet used, and I'm sure that the inquisition would possess at least one copy of an Eldar->Gothic translation list, which would be used by xenoscholars to figure out the meaning of any script on alien artifacts. The Eldar language appears to be a mixture of pictoral and linguistic description, with the position of the letters being as important as the letters themselves. I realise that I am going off on a bit of a tangent here, and maybe should start a thread in the Dark Millenium for this, but never mind. Maybe with such a grimoire to hand, and with a fair amount of study, an inquisitor might be able to decipher most of the runes on the weapon. he may have got a few wrong though, which might lead to some interesting situations....
Wasn't the whole point of the Dark Eldar that they raid for souls to give to Slaanesh as part of a pact which kept their own souls safe (in a counterpoint to The Laughing god, who trades the souls of his Solitaires for the souls of all of the rest of his people).
Why would they need to "opt out" of psychic ability as long as they're paying their dues?
For the Eldar who took the 'dark' choice it seems rather extreme to effectively cut out their tongues, remove half their fingers and lobotomise themselves to save themselves from The Fall when there are other options available...
(Eldar language is heavily influenced by psychic overtones...etc to the point that the first speakers of what must now be the Dark Eldar language must have been about as intelligable to each other as someone with no tongue would be to us.
Eldar technology is so heavily based on psychoreactive materials and psychic impulses that using what they had without using psychic abilities must have been akin to trying to type this post in boxing gloves (at the very least).
Eldar's whole perception of the universe is rather pscho-centric - to put all that aside must have been equivalent to deciding you could do without half your brain (or alternatively your gonads).)
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on February 16, 2012, 01:29:31 PM
Wasn't the whole point of the Dark Eldar that they raid for souls to give to Slaanesh as part of a pact which kept their own souls safe (in a counterpoint to The Laughing god, who trades the souls of his Solitaires for the souls of all of the rest of his people).
Why would they need to "opt out" of psychic ability as long as they're paying their dues?
For the Eldar who took the 'dark' choice it seems rather extreme to effectively cut out their tongues, remove half their fingers and lobotomise themselves to save themselves from The Fall when there are other options available...
(Eldar language is heavily influenced by psychic overtones...etc to the point that the first speakers of what must now be the Dark Eldar language must have been about as intelligable to each other as someone with no tongue would be to us.
Eldar technology is so heavily based on psychoreactive materials and psychic impulses that using what they had without using psychic abilities must have been akin to trying to type this post in boxing gloves (at the very least).
Eldar's whole perception of the universe is rather pscho-centric - to put all that aside must have been equivalent to deciding you could do without half your brain (or alternatively your gonads).)
I'm guessing either you, I, or both of us need to have a re-read of Codex: Dark Eldar to determine what's what -- I remember reading that the Dark Eldar's psychic powers becoming atrophied because they didn't want to draw Slaanesh's attention any more than they'd already done. This extends to other psychic types that enter the Dark City, and is part of the reason why Baron Sathonyx is generally disliked by the rest of Commoragh's high society -- psychic power usage is just too damn risky.
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on February 16, 2012, 01:29:31 PM
Wasn't the whole point of the Dark Eldar that they raid for souls to give to Slaanesh as part of a pact which kept their own souls safe
Which would be fine, if that was what they did. As far as I can tell, that was one of several fan theories based on the general lack of information in the original Dark Eldar book. The current one explains the matter in actual detail.
Dark Eldar don't sacrifice souls to She Who Thirsts. Instead, they feed on the pain, fear and suffering of others to replenish their drained souls - souls drained by Slaanesh's influence.
If I'm not mistaken it was the case that the real psykers were considered to be interesting playthings and psychic souls provide much more sustenance. They however have not lost all of their much more simple abilities, they just lack the powers of the trained psykers of the species.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 16, 2012, 09:09:11 AM
Extrapolation from two related points - page 5 of Codex: Dark Eldar explains the lack of psychic talent amongst Dark Eldar (as I've already described), and then in the following paragraph mentions that Dark Eldar weaponry is manufactured, rather than psychically grown. A section later in the book explains that this is typically done by countless millions of slaves labouring in munitions factories.
Eldar technology employs psychic impulses because it's inherently psychoreactive - that's how the Eldar interact with the universe. The materials each item is grown from, and the manner of its intended use, all combine to produce a blend of form and function that responds to the minds of Eldar - that's how it always has been for the Eldar as a species. The Dark Eldar have diverged metaphysically from what might be perceived as traditional Eldar nature.
The Dark Eldar use slave labour to manufacture their technology. It isn't psychoreactive, and thus can't respond to psychic impulses like Craftworlder devices do.
That does make sense to a large degree. To offer a slightly different take on it, once could extrapolate that the Dark Eldar (who feel into absolute hedonism) have largely lost interest in pursuits such as "growing" their own weapons and because of the abundance of slave labor (there is very specific mention of numerous races living on the Dark City, in fact it's inferred that the Dark Eldar may be outnumbered by these) that most Dark Eldar weaponry is manufactured this way because as kings of the realm they are too damn important to do that kind of work.
There are a lot of things in the new codex that infer a large degree of psychic tom-foolery in the Dark City. The work of the haemonculus along with much of their wargear deals with items that (at the very least) sound psycho-reactive in nature. Additionally there are the mentions of wealthier denizen of Commorragh cutting off a finger so that they may be regrown at a later time if the rest of their body dies. While none of this directly shouts "they still have psychic abilities" it does at the very least leave the possibility open.
To speak more specifically about the Klaive, of all the Dark Eldar weapons they seem to have the most in common with their craftworld kin (at least from an aesthetic standpoint though this is only my opinion). Additionally the Incubi are also referenced as being the DE equivalent of the craftworld aspect warriors, a devotion which heavily infers a level of commitment that delves into a fusion of mind and body involving psychic levels of focus. On top of that there are the "rumors" that they even abide by a code of honor (which infers a level of separation between them and their brethren). If there was a black/niche market supplying psycho-reactive materials in the Dark City I think the Incubi temples would be a suitable source.
On top of all this is the ambiguity of where this type of action would lie on the psychic spectrum. Their abilities may have atrophied in comparison to their craftworld equivalents (where entire worlds are guided by the psychic precognition who can generate warp lightening storms on a whim) but does that mean that they no longer send subtle singles? Can they no longer receive them as well?
A while back (on the old Conclave) I postulated that the Solitares who travel with the Harlequins may completely "cut out" their warp tongue as a way of not corrupting their kin and keeping their souls isolated from She Who Thirsts. If the Dark Eldar are already having their souls sucked out but keep refilling "the milkshake" by feasting on pain and suffering then how much (if at all) would a couple psychic impulses affect that? Indeed, would this be a venue of experience that they would want to close off? As another view, would closing off this sensory experience be impossible if they had to take in pain and suffering by using it? This isn't a provable concept on my part but I think it is plausible.
I am in no way saying that your take is wrong N01, but unless I'm missing something I feel like the door is left open to say that it isn't unrealistic that the Dark Eldar would in some cases have weapons made from psycho-reactive materials (or use some type of psycho-locking mechanisms on some weapons).
Quote from: Koval on February 16, 2012, 07:46:08 AM
For the sake of making sure everyone's on the same page, I'd just like to remind everyone that sorcery and psychic ability don't have to go hand-in-hand. Quite a lot of sorcerers have no psychic talent (see Dark Heresy: Disciples of the Dark Gods).
Also worth pointing out that any out-and-out Warp play in the Dark City is likely to be jumped on very quickly by more pragmatic Dark Eldar that would prefer it if Slaanesh didn't suddenly have an easy way in.
On your second point I agree, on your first I'm also on the same page with you. That said, while sorcery and psychic ability don't have to go hand in hand I feel as though opening up a door when you are a member of a species as psychically receptive as the eldar would probably be as risky as being a psycher. I can see multiple sides of this, such as saying that an Eldar focused on psychic training is keeping their mind open while sorcery keeps their soul separate from the proceedings (at least "more separate" if that concept makes sense). Their body may take the brunt of feedback but their soul could be buffered a bit more. That idea isn't without its flaws but I think it makes a certain amount of sense.
Anyway, enough rambling for the night.
Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 17, 2012, 04:24:12 AM
Additionally there are the mentions of wealthier denizen of Commorragh cutting off a finger so that they may be regrown at a later time if the rest of their body dies. While none of this directly shouts "they still have psychic abilities" it does at the very least leave the possibility open.
To my knowledge, this is more of a case of turning their feeding on suffering up to eleven. It can be performed with almost any body part, so not just a finger, though that would seem to be something that the Haemonclus might demand in return for the service (they have made stranger demands- ++Cross-ref archives++ -Forbidden/dark kin/haemoncli/rumours/service charge/heartbeat-). The regeneration also seems to require a mixture of extreme pain and the arcane sciences of the haemoncli, and all regenerating dark eldar reside in pods above the torture tables in the oubliettes of the haemocli covens.
To quote someone whose name I can't remember and can't be bothered to find out:
"If sufficiently advanced, science and magic are indistinguishable to the untrained observer" or something along those lines. This being 40k, substitute magic for sorcery and psychic happenings.
Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 17, 2012, 04:24:12 AM
On top of that there are the "rumors" that they even abide by a code of honor (which infers a level of separation between them and their brethren).
It is even rumoured that they will keep their word... which is more than most inquisitors can say.
Edit: whoops, forgot double brackets on quotes
Quote from: Draco Ferox on February 17, 2012, 06:55:44 PMTo quote someone whose name I can't remember
Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
But 40K HAS magic, real magic, that is, phenomena not explainable in terms of the behaviour of material objects under the laws of this universe. Psychic powers and sorcery affect the behaviour of material objects and mental states in a way that contradicts the laws of physics/biology/chemistry/science in general, and so must be beyond Clarke's 3rd Law. The Necrons might possibly be considered to be within the 3rd Law (or at least mostly within it) as might the AdMech, but many things are outside of it. My reading of the codex, with the idea of mental states radiating and being fed upon, was that is was psychic, though perhaps in a way that is only safe in the partially insulated Webway.
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on February 18, 2012, 12:30:55 AM
But 40K HAS magic, real magic, that is, phenomena not explainable in terms of the behaviour of material objects under the laws of this universe. Psychic powers and sorcery affect the behaviour of material objects and mental states in a way that contradicts the laws of physics/biology/chemistry/science in general, and so must be beyond Clarke's 3rd Law. The Necrons might possibly be considered to be within the 3rd Law (or at least mostly within it) as might the AdMech, but many things are outside of it. My reading of the codex, with the idea of mental states radiating and being fed upon, was that is was psychic, though perhaps in a way that is only safe in the partially insulated Webway.
It's worth noting that the sciences of the Eldar are known (and stated in canon - page 5 of Codex: Dark Eldar, and page 22 of Codex: Eldar) to be sufficiently advanced to appear as witchcraft to less-developed species. This is particularly the case with the Dark Eldar, who have no
real witchcraft to fall back upon.
As for their devouring of the suffering of others... the result of a metaphysical change on their part. Physically, they're Eldar in the conventional sense... but spiritually and psychically, they've been twisted into beings who feed upon the torments they inflict. Within that context, it does seem very much like the souls of the Dark Eldar have become fundamentally different from those of their Craftworlder cousins.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on February 17, 2012, 07:11:52 PM
Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"
— Agatha Heterodyne
What about when it comes to Eldar Pirates, I thought they drew from all the respective Eldar Races, are their sufficient differences that this would become an issue, what with their souls being different?
They would p[robably have completely different cultural backgrounds, with those from the craftworlds and the exodites being raised with some more moralty than the dark kin. I presume that they will still speak the same language but that the nonverbal communication would have changed a bit due to the vastly different cultures.
On the subject of language incidentally...
The original WFRP rules do not list Dark Elves as having a separate language from the High/Sea Elves - it is implied that they still speak the Tar-Elthárin of their ancestors...
Even with the later clarification that their "language" is different it is quite possible that it is still a Dialect of Elthárin in the same way as Tar-Elthárin and Fan-Elthárin
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on March 10, 2012, 03:26:03 PM
On the subject of language incidentally...
The original WFRP rules do not list Dark Elves as having a separate language from the High/Sea Elves - it is implied that they still speak the Tar-Elthárin of their ancestors...
Even with the later clarification that their "language" is different it is quite possible that it is still a Dialect of Elthárin in the same way as Tar-Elthárin and Fan-Elthárin
What does WFRP have to do with 40K, other than both being the brain-children of GW?
QuoteThis is extrapolated from WHFB, but in that system, the language of the Dark Elves is a bastardised version of Elvish script, with some different characters. However, an Elf would still be able to get the gist of Dark Elf script by reading it (Brunner reference). I would assume that this would apply in 40k, <snip>
The two games are in the same mould and it's been suggested the same universe and the same time... It's by no means foolproof but it's possible that an extrapolation from one to the other might shed some light on the subject at hand...
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on March 11, 2012, 01:37:31 AM
QuoteThis is extrapolated from WHFB, but in that system, the language of the Dark Elves is a bastardised version of Elvish script, with some different characters. However, an Elf would still be able to get the gist of Dark Elf script by reading it (Brunner reference). I would assume that this would apply in 40k, <snip>
The two games are in the same mould and it's been suggested the same universe and the same time... It's by no means foolproof but it's possible that an extrapolation from one to the other might shed some light on the subject at hand...
Official stance on the matter, last I checked, is that the two settings are entirely separate. There used to be hints otherwise, but those have since been retconned.
There however isn't much of any kind of source about the languages of the eldar, both dark and craftworld, being the same or different. It is one of those many areas where anything goes, as long as it can be fitted in. I think that the languages of the two subspecies will have remained roughly the same. The craftworld eldar are a conservative society where innovation is not a big thing. The dark eldar see themselves as the only true eldar, they use many things from before the fall and are proud of that.
Of course some changes will have slipped in but with the relatively large populations they have and their respective cultures they would mostly speak the same languages, there would be no more difference between the eldar from Commoragh and those of Ulthwe than between those of Ulthwe and Alaitoc.
I would say that the hatred of the Dark Eldar toward their "cousins" is what really differentiates them, and drives them to use weapons that are polar opposites; Eldar have mastered light, and make use of advanced laser weapons, wheras dark Eldar make use of darklight (think that's the term) and antimatter weapons. I do not, however, think that they would have differed much in terms of language. I was extrapolating the differences and similarities in langage from the tribal-esque look of the dark eldar runes, which would have been based off Eldar runes, but twisted and barbed by their fallen kin to resemble the hate that each feels inside. I am sure that a part of this drive to distance themselves is jealousy at the fact that no mattter what, they will inevitably have their sould taken by She Who Thirsts, but for the most part, I see them being more similar than any of their species would be willing to admit. I would say that innovation is a big thing on the craftworlds, but it is kept in check by the older Eldar, lest they slip back into the easy ways that lead to the fall. I all Eldar being able to communicate adequately, and some may even go so far as to learn the languages of other craftworlds, just as people knowadays learn second, third and even nth languages. The main difference would probably be colloquialisms unique to craftworlds and Commorragh, though Eldar pirates would presumably drop in on craftworlds every now and then to trade, and so these individual terms, while not found in the whole of Eldar society, would still be present on craftworlds if one looked for long enough.