The Conclave

The Ordos Majoris - Hobby, Painting and Modelling => In the Field => Topic started by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 05, 2012, 10:41:34 AM

Title: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 05, 2012, 10:41:34 AM
In my (planned) campaign, players will have to buy their resources (such as food water and fuel) from a shop (after finding the right outlet)
 here is the "shop" list


Weaponry
Solid Shot, These prices are a representative for the average of this weapon; retailers may charge more or less and may be open to haggling and offer varying calibres etc. Consult the GM for more.

Pistols
Name   Price (£)   Price per round (£)   Price per magazine (round cap) (£)   Price per special round (£)
Revolver   50   2   - (6)   5
Autopistol   70   1   6 (10) 10 (15)  12 (20)   5
Stubber   60   1   6 (10) 10 (15)  12 (20)   5
High cal stub pistol   120   4   8 (10) 12 (12)  20 (15)   10
Naval stub pistol   150   8   - (5)   15
Shotguns
Name   Price (£)   Price per round (£)   Price per magazine (no rounds) (£)   Price per special round (£)
Shotgun   25   1   - (1)   3
2X barreled   35   1   - (2)   3
Sawn off   20   1   - (1)   3
2X barreled   30   1   - (2)   3
P.A. Shotgun   70   1   - (8)   3
Auto Shotgun   180   1   8 (10) 12 (20)  15 (30)   3
Rifles
Name   Price (£)   Price per round (£)   Price per magazine (no rounds) (£)   Price per special round (£)
B.A. Rifle   100   2   - (1) 2 (5) 4 (10)   8
Hunting Rifle   120   8   - (1) 2 (5) 4 (10)   15
Stub Rifle   180   4   8 (10) 12 (20)  15 (30)   8
Assault Rifle   200   2   10 (25) 15 (30) 20 (50)   4
Automatic weapons
Name   Price (£)   Price per round (£)   Price per magazine (no rounds) (£)   Price per special round (£)
SMG   90   1   8 (10) 12 (20)  15 (30)   5
Mid Stubber   150   4   15 (30) 20 (50) 30 (100)   10
Heavy Stubber   200   8   20 (30) 25 (50) 35 (100) 70 (200)   15
Light Autocannon   250   10   25 (30) 30 (50) 40 (100) 75 (200)   20
Light Assault Cannon   400   4   100 (400) backpack feed   10












Las weapons
Laspistols
Made of:  a barrel, a lasing chamber, a discharge generator, a muzzle, a grip and a frame.
Magazines are available separately
Frame   Price (£)
Standard   20
Concealable   10
Auxilliary Las   15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Barrel   Price (£)
Short   10
Mid   20
Long   30


Grip   Price (£)
Standard   5
Duelling   10


Discharge generator   Price (£)
Mars   80
Triplex-Phall   100
Necromunda   80
Thracian   120
Heruna   100


Muzzle   Price (£)
Standard   10
Doppler (red/blue)   40
Distortion   60
Stealth   80






Magazine   Price (£)
Civillian   40
Millitary   80
Heavy Millitary   120
Power Feed   200
Hot shot   180







Lasguns
Made Of: a barrel, a lasing chamber, a discharge generator, a muzzle, a stock and a frame.
Magazines are available separately.
Stock   Price (£)
None   -
Skeleton   10
Folding   20
Heavy Duty   40
Lasing Chamber (Megathule)   Price (£)
18   100
19   120
21   140
28   160

Frame   Price (£)
Standard   40
bullpup   50






Lasing Chamber (Megathule)   Price (£)
16   60
18   80
19   100
21   120
25   140

Barrel   Price (£)
Carbine   10
Mid   20
Extended   30
Long-Las   40
Muzzle   Price (£)
Standard   10
Doppler (red/blue)   40
Distortion   60
Stealth   80







Discharge generator   Price (£)
Mars   90
Triplex-Phall   120
Necromunda   80
Thracian   140
Valdis   200

Magazine   Price (£)
Civilian   40
Military   80
Heavy Military   120
Power Feed   200
Hot shot   180









Bolt Weapons
.75 Bolters (DC drum compatible)
Bolter Mark (mag type)   Price (£)
2 (straight) DC   1400
3 (Belt Feed)   1600
4 (Sickle) DC   1800
Magazines
Type   Capacity (rounds)   Price (£)
Straight   15   10
Belt   30   5
Sickle   20   20
Drum   40   40
Other .75 Bolt Weapons
Name   Price (£)   Magazine Cost (£) (Capacity)
Bolt Pistol   1000   10 (12)
Bolt Sniper   2000   - (1)
Storm Bolter DC   2200   30 (30)
Bolt Compact   800   - (6)
Light bolt pistol   900   7 (8)
1.0   bolt weapons (rounds cost 25% more)
Name   Price (£)   Magazine cost (£)(Capacity)
Heavy Bolter   2500   50/60 DM
Bolt Cannon   1800   -   (1)
Rounds (0.75)
Name    Price (£) (1.0 rounds)
Standard Official   50 (63)
Standard Unofficial (2D10)   25 (31)
Kraken   140 (175)
Metal Storm   60 (75)
Stalker   100 (125)
Inferno   120 (150)
Hellfire   150 (188)
Tempest   200 (250)
Dragon Fire   90 (113)
Vengance   170 (213)
Wych-bolts   70 (88)
Psy-bolts   250 (313)
Tracker Rounds   60 (75)











Plasma weapons
Name    Price (£)   Plasma cap cost (£)
Plasma Pistol   30000   2000
Plasma Gun   45000   3000
Plasma Flamer   50000   3000
Aux Plasma   25000   2000
Plasma Cannon   70000   5000
Flamers
Name   Price (£)   Fuel tank price (£) (litres in tank) fuel not included
Flamer   800   50 (2)
Heavy Flamer   1000   100 (4)
Hand Flamer   600   25 (1)
Aux Flamer   500   10 (0.5)
Meltas
Name   Price (£)   Fuel price per full can (£)
Inferno Pistol   15000   1000
Meltagun   20000   1500
Multi Melta   30000   2000

Needle weapons
Name   Price (£)   Reload (£)
Pistol   800   300
Rifle   1000   400
Digital Weapons (special import only)
Name   Price (£)
Las   10000
Inferno   50000
Flame   20000
Needle   30000


















Explosives
Launchers
Name   Price (£)   Price for projectile (£) (not warhead)
Aux grenade launcher   60   -
1 shot grenade launcher   75   -
Drum mag grenade launcher   100   20 (magazine)
Missile launcher   5000   700
Rocket launcher   3000   500
Disposable rocket launcher(super-krak warhead + rocket included)    3500   -
Grenades (WHO warhead only)
Name   Price (£)
Frag   50
Super frag WHO   120
Krak   70
Super Krak WHO   160
Plasma   140
Haywire   250
EMP   200
Photon   150
Stasis   2000
Psyk Out   10000
Melta Bomb   1000
Demolition charge   500
Gas (toxin)   40 (20)

Possession of xeno weaponry can result in execution for heresy
Tau Weapons
Name   Price (£)   Reload (£)
Pulse pistol   500   100
Pulse carbine   700   200 + p.f.grenades
Pulse rifle   600   300
Rail rifle   1500   500
Rail carbine   2000   400
Shruiken weapons
Name   Price (£)   Magazine Price (£) with ammo
Pistol   15000   10000
Catapult   20000   15000
Avenger Catapult   30000   25000
Cannon   50000   45000







Thrown Weapons
Name   Price (£)
Star   15
Knife   20
Axe   15
Javelin   15
Bolas   25
Close Combat Weapons
Name   Price (£)
Knife   15
Short sword   25
Sword    50
Axe   40
Flail   55
Spear   30
Halberd   80
Hammer   60
Falchion   100
Great Axe   70
Great Hammer   80
Bastard Sword   120
Knuckle Dusters   25
Armoured Gauntlet   40
Bayonet   15
Chain Weapons
Name   Price (£)   Fuel tank (l)(good for 1 game if used)
Chansword   800   2
Chain Axe   1000   2.5
Eviscerator   1200   3
Chainblade   600   1
Power Weapons
Name   Price (£)
Power Sword   3000
Power Axe   5000
Power Fist   7000
Chainfist   10000
Power Halberd   8000
Power Hammer   6000
Power Knife   2000
Power Falchion   13000
Shock Weapons
Name   Price (£)
Shock Maul   1000
Neural Whip   1500
Electro Flail   1800



Shields
Base
Name   Price (£)
Buckler   30
Shield   60
Armour
Name   Price (£)
Wood   20
Reinforced Wood   50
Metal   90
Reinforced Metal   120
Special
Name   Price (£)
Suppression   100
Mirror   140
Storm   300
 Other Items
Minerals
Quantity   Substance   Price (£)
1Kg   Red Asur Baronis   1000000
1Kg   Yellow Asur Baronis    100000
1Kg   Blue Asur Baronis   50000
1Kg   Unrefined Phosphor Beta   1000
1Kg   Refined Phosphor Beta   20000
1L   Promethium   100
Commodities
Name   Low quality price   High Quality Price
Camel   750   1500
1L water   100   200
Headgear   10   20
Human Slave   500   1000
Mutant Slave   200   250
Robes   15   30
Tent   50   100
Other liquids (l)
Name   Price (£)
Pure water   500
Strachaen camel blood   50
Bluegrass nutrient infused water   130
Greenberry nutrient infused water   150
Food (Kg)
Name   Price (£)
Flatbread   10
Strachaen camel steak   15
Orangeberries   90
Rare Game steak (RIV etc.)   5000
Import cuisine (see GM)   (see GM)

C+C welcome
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Draco Ferox on February 05, 2012, 02:25:32 PM
I like the idea of a shop in a campaign, and having varying prices with different merchants seems good too.

There are a few questions I have, however:
1. Will all items be available from all shops (I assume items such as as xeno weapons will be black-market only)
2. What will happen if a character is unable to pay for basic supplies (food, water, fuel etc)
3. What starting equipment will the PCs have?
4. Is there any mechanism for selling items back to the store, maybe for less common items only?
5. Can PCs rob shops? (scenario?)
6. Relating to the above, are there warehouses where goods are stored? (that "you're fighting in a fuel dump, no guns or you asplode" scenario comes to mind)
7. Are there rewards for turning in black market dealers instead of trading with them?
8. Will shops close at certain times (festival days, nights etc), to limit how much trading can be done?

Overall a good concept, but once you introduce shops into a campaign, it's almost inevitable that one of the players will want to "acquire" a large, heavy vehicle and ram-raid a shop/warehouse (this would be me if I participated).

EDIT: when you have put a bracket, and eight and a bracket for the ammunition, it comes out as a bracket and a shades smiley emoticon. Spaces may be able to change this.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 05, 2012, 02:40:03 PM
I have one big question, how do players get their money, and how much will they get?
Storywise some characters would be enormously wealthy, and xenos weapons would be much more expensive than you listed them.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 05, 2012, 03:15:30 PM
Other than the above questions, the big thing to bring up is you really shouldn't use pounds. Throne Gelt, Imperial credits, something else... just make it something non contemporary.

Also, some of your numbers seem a little funny - like a litre of dirty water costing twice what a revolver does.
If that were truly the way, I suspect water wouldn't be changing hands for money, it would be changing hands for lead.

Laspistols also come in at a bare minimum of 155, which makes them more expensive than any pistol short of a bolt pistol, as well as some forms of machine gun! And a standard Mars Pattern is 215, most of what you're charging for an autocannon.
Not exactly in keeping with the "cheap & plentiful" fluff behind lasweapons.

I assume you don't have the Dark Heresy books, but it might be worth looking at at least the core one. Aside from being full of lots of good fluff on the Inquisition and Imperium in general, it does put monetary numbers down for the classic 40k equipment and weapons.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 05, 2012, 05:24:56 PM
Other than the above questions, the big thing to bring up is you really shouldn't use pounds. Throne Gelt, Imperial credits, something else... just make it something non contemporary.
the pound symbol was a representative sign, I would use imperial credits in a campaign.

Also, some of your numbers seem a little funny - like a litre of dirty water costing twice what a revolver does.
If that were truly the way, I suspect water wouldn't be changing hands for money, it would be changing hands for lead.
Velterax is a desert world and water is precious, (likely that small wars will break out over water)
Laspistols also come in at a bare minimum of 155, which makes them more expensive than any pistol short of a bolt pistol, as well as some forms of machine gun! And a standard Mars Pattern is 215, most of what you're charging for an autocannon.
Not exactly in keeping with the "cheap & plentiful" fluff behind lasweapons.
Velterax's specialy is in solid shot firearms, thus there is less demand for las-weapons so they are pricecd accordingly. Also, like bolters, las weapons are a status symbol.

I like the idea of a shop in a campaign, and having varying prices with different merchants seems good too.

There are a few questions I have, however:
1. Will all items be available from all shops (I assume items such as as xeno weapons will be black-market only)
no, the gm will decide (xeno weapons will be, like you said, black market)
2. What will happen if a character is unable to pay for basic supplies (food, water, fuel etc)
they will suffer suffer stat damage, etc.
3. What starting equipment will the PCs have?
they will gat their basic equipment and a sum for equipment
4. Is there any mechanism for selling items back to the store, maybe for less common items only?
yes, but for a reduced amount (haggling possible.)
5. Can PCs rob shops? (scenario?)
yes!
6. Relating to the above, are there warehouses where goods are stored? (that "you're fighting in a fuel dump, no guns or you asplode" scenario comes to mind)
yes (like firearms depots, have you seen joe 90 episode hijacked)
7. Are there rewards for turning in black market dealers instead of trading with them?
yes, and you may get to keep the stock, but sometimes as an inquisitor, you don't want to start wars. BM traders can have friends in high up places
8. Will shops close at certain times (festival days, nights etc), to limit how much trading can be done?
of course!

Overall a good concept, but once you introduce shops into a campaign, it's almost inevitable that one of the players will want to "acquire" a large, heavy vehicle and ram-raid a shop/warehouse (this would be me if I participated).

EDIT: when you have put a bracket, and eight and a bracket for the ammunition, it comes out as a bracket and a shades smiley emoticon. Spaces may be able to change this.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 05, 2012, 06:20:26 PM
Velterax is a desert world and water is precious, (likely that small wars will break out over water)
I'm not hugely keen on the "single biome" planet cliché. Planets with a human inhabitable climate will, almost by definition, take very strongly after Earth in having significant latitudinal variation. (There is a 147 degree C range between world high and world low temperatures.)
Slack is of course cut for worlds with sealed environments, but other than that it feels uninventive (and unbelievable) to just have a planet with a single type of terrain.

Anyway, there's precious and there's ridiculous. When a weapon is a fraction of the cost of your daily water requirements, there would be nothing BUT wars over it. I'd make it scarce and heavily rationed, but only exorbitantly expensive if you're trying to buy extra on the black market or something.

Quote
Velterax's specialy is in solid shot firearms, thus there is less demand for las-weapons so they are pricecd accordingly.
I suppose that's reasonably logical in a desert (Bullets would be less impeded by sandstorms than lasbolts). Not so sure about the status symbol thing though.

EDIT: when you have put a bracket, and eight and a bracket for the ammunition, it comes out as a bracket and a shades smiley emoticon. Spaces may be able to change this.
Alternatively, tick the "don't use smileys" option in the additional posting options, or break it up some other way.

An easy way to stop a forum parsing tags is to just throw matched [i][/i] tags somewhere in the middle of the code. Which would look like this (8[i][/i]) and give you this (8)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Draco Ferox on February 05, 2012, 06:34:48 PM
I'm not hugely keen on the "single biome" planet cliché. Planets with a human inhabitable climate will, almost by definition, take very strongly after Earth in having significant latitudinal variation. (There is a 147 degree C range between world high and world low temperatures.)

I suppose that's reasonably logical in a desert (Bullets would be less impeded by sandstorms than lasbolts). Not so sure about the status symbol thing though.

On your first point, isn't Tallarn supposed to be an entirely arid world (though IIRC, that was to do with an invasion by the iron warriors)? And this is the imperium, there is no shortage of worlds with varying climates. For an all-desert planet, it would perhaps have to be classed as a death world, but even so, it's not inconcievable that one might exist.

And on your second, while a lasbolt may be impeeded more than a bullet, wouldn't the laser mechanism be less prone to jamming due to dust than the operation of a solid shot weapon (manual weapons excluded)? Isn't the reason the AK47 is so reliable because most of the parts have large tolerances, so particles don't interfere with operation? In this case, the mechanism of a laser weapon would, having no moving parts, be less susceptible to this sort of problem.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 05, 2012, 06:46:31 PM
On your first point, isn't Tallarn supposed to be an entirely arid world
Yes, but that doesn't mean it's good writing or that I like it. The science behind it isn't plausible in the slightest.

Quote
And on your second, wouldn't the laser mechanism be less prone to jamming
Ah... a very good point, and one that I'm kicking myself in the head over (figuratively, although I would like to be that flexible). In spite of the better response to visually opaque conditions - but let's be honest about that, if you can actually see them to shoot them, then a lasgun wouldn't have that much trouble vaporising what sand might have been in the way - solid shot weapons just don't make as much sense as the low moving part mechanism of lasers.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 05, 2012, 07:21:13 PM
I wasn't sure why, but I felt solid shot weapons more suited the planet's temperament rather than practicalities (this is 40K), and half the planet was virus bombed while the other half was desertified by the birth of slaanesh.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 05, 2012, 07:41:05 PM
If there has been water once, where did it go? it can't have gone into the athmosphere, then it would just have condensated again. It could somehow have fallen apart but because water is very stable it would just have come back.

An arid planet is a possibility. It would only require a very low amount of oxigen, which would lead to other problems such as always having to carry oxigen tanks around.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 05, 2012, 07:45:18 PM
There are oceans, but they are heavily contaminated by the by-products of phosphor-beta refining.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 05, 2012, 08:30:08 PM
half the planet was virus bombed
You can't virus bomb half a planet. It spreads across the entire world, reducing anything and everything organic to mush and then the atmosphere itself ignites and boils off into space. The result would be a desert (Desert: any area with extremely low precipitation), but because there would be no atmosphere to support rainfall.

Quote
while the other half was desertified by the birth of slaanesh.
I thought you had Velterax near the Tau empire in the Ultima Segmentum? That's roughly 80,000 lightyears from the Eye of Terror - they wouldn't even be able to see it (unless there's some clause about the warp doing it), given it was only created ten millennia ago.

However:
There are oceans, but they are heavily contaminated by the by-products of phosphor-beta refining.
If there are oceans, then there will be precipitation, and there will be non-desert areas.

(Although I have just noticed that I've fallen into a bit of misconception. Deserts don't have to be sand, and in fact, only 20% of the world's deserts ARE. The largest desert in the world, by a margin of more than half again over the Sahara, is the Antarctic.)

I suppose that if the right atmospheric pollutants get dissolved in the clouds and make the rain dangerous, then the only habitable zones would be the areas without precipitation (i.e. the deserts).
But that is specific to atmospheric pollutants. Water evaporating from the sea wouldn't bring any pollutants with it.

So it might be that the only safely habitable areas are desert, which is a more plausible solution (and achievable without someone blowing up the planet). Still, I can't see that water would be such an insurmountable problem. If you can run a pipeline to the sea, it's not hard to distil out pollutants to get clean water.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 05, 2012, 08:37:11 PM
If the inhabitable areas are sufficiently far removed from the oceans water could become very expensive, especially when a single party manages to gain a monopoly over them. It would however never become the case that water becomes more expensive than weapons, that would need only very small amounts of water to be present as well as huge caches of surplus weapons just lying around.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: DapperAnarchist on February 05, 2012, 09:43:59 PM
This could apply either in a particular region (though then the question is, why can't the PCs leave the region and return) or in a habitat of some kind - a starship, a station, a hollow asteroid, a moonbase...
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Ynek on February 05, 2012, 10:00:49 PM
Water evaporating from the sea wouldn't bring any pollutants with it.

If you can run a pipeline to the sea, it's not hard to distil out pollutants to get clean water.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but certain forms of pollution, such as radioactivity, do not go away just because the radioactive matter has changed state from liquid to gas.

Filtering out the radioactive water molecules to get suitable drinking water is a possibility, but if 99.999% of the planet's water is radioactive, this would mean that you get 1ml for every 100l you process. If the filtering process is particularly expensive (for example, if the minerals required to make the filters have to be shipped in from off-world) then water becomes a very expensive commodity indeed.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 05, 2012, 10:30:47 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but certain forms of pollution, such as radioactivity, do not go away just because the radioactive matter has changed state from liquid to gas.
But H2O isn't radioactive. The concept of something being radiologically contaminated requires the presence of radionuclides, which distillation removes in exactly the same way as anything else. Even radioactive forms of water, such as Tritium Oxide, are easily separated due to having different boiling points. (Deuterium Oxide, despite its association with nuclear reactors, is not radioactive, but is still easily removed.)

In other words, if you distilled the cooling water from Chernobyl, it would be less dangerous than what comes out of your tap. The concept that pure H2O that once contained radionuclides is radioactive would be pretty much akin to homoeopathy.

Quote
If the filtering process is particularly expensive (for example, if the minerals required to make the filters have to be shipped in from off-world) then water becomes a very expensive commodity indeed.
In which case, it would seem more likely that the water would be shipped in from off world. If they can ship in enough food for a hive world, there's no reason they couldn't ship in enough water for a desert world.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: DapperAnarchist on February 05, 2012, 11:55:12 PM
Well... the water could all have been stolen. By the Mechanicus, or an alien raiding party of some kind, or something like that. Or it could be a world like a hot mars (I know Mars is actually quite wet, but run with it). Thin atmosphere, requiring rebreathers, little water in the crust, perhaps a viral or fungal lifeform that gets into any water left out for too long and is activated by the wetness (like the flowers and frogs that apparently live in the desert? Or is that one of those lies, like lemmings running over cliffs?), all of this (with an explanation of why settlers arrived in the first place - fuel sources would be a good one) would add up to a world where water is rare.

However, if you want a desert location with little to no water - the Wastes that surround a Hive fit that nicely. It might not be that scientific (especially once it was decided that Armageddon has jungles and oceans...), but it is established.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 06, 2012, 06:46:07 AM
Thanks, this thread has really helped me question my planet's scientific origins, thank you. You have just brought about a shift in my planet's fluff!
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Kaled on February 06, 2012, 09:25:29 AM
Going back to the shops... I'm curious - many characters in Inquisitor will have access to vast sums of money, so what is the setup for your campaign that prevents them having access to it?

Also, if I were playing in your campaign I'd have my characters knocking out opposing characters and stripping them of everything they own - weapons, ammo, clothing, supplies etc. And some characters would think nothing of chopping off a downed opponent's leg and eating that rather than paying for food. In fact there are all sorts of devious things players could do to save money. Are there going to be any restrictions on such shenanigans?
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 06, 2012, 09:33:32 AM
The reasoning behind it is that many of my characters are honourable, but they will only be able to carry a certain ammount of money, and don't want to blow their cover/start a war.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Kaled on February 06, 2012, 09:59:35 AM
But are the other players going to play their characters as being honourable and not wanting to start a war? In my experience, players tend to ruin the carefully laid plans of even the best GMs by wanting to do something the GM hasn't anticipated but which is perfectly in character. And I've found that if a campaign needs players to collect money, then they'll try all manner of things to get rich.

Also, how will you handle wysiwyg? Will players be expected to convert their models is their character with a laspistol buys an autocannon?
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 06, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
What I have learnt from my time GMing for both Inquisitor and Dark Heresy is that players will never "play by the rules" and do what you're expecting them to do. They will improvise, come up with what you're not expecting, come completely out of left field, and just generally try to find any way they can possibly cheat the system.

It's bad practice to veto things just because you didn't think of them (as players will stop feeling like they've got any freedom), so you do need to build flexibility into whatever you're doing.

perhaps a viral or fungal lifeform that gets into any water left out for too long and is activated by the wetness
Also removed by distillation, and easily kept out after that by any airtight seal.

One thing that does strike me about any water shortage is that as one gets back about half their water intake in easily purified urine, you only need to source somewhere to get the remaining half.
(And yes, there is a very real chance that someone will ask if they can drink their pee.)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Cortez on February 06, 2012, 12:48:03 PM
It also should be well within the technology of the Imperium to create an Arrakis style stillsuit. In fact I'm pretty sure that the suits worn by House Van Saar in Necromunda have similar properties.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 06, 2012, 01:34:39 PM
If the characters carry only limited cash to not draw much attention, many kinds of weapons and equipment would also remain unused. Nothing says that a character is strange like him using nearly priceless weaponry.

Shipping in water from offworld would still be quite expensive, especially if the planet we're talking about doesn't have much to offer in trade. All the water that is transported there could also be the subject to the same monopoly which would allow for high, but of course not extremely high, prices. Getting water would have to be extremely hard for this to take effect, Saudi Arabia, which is renowned for its deserts has quite high water prices($1,50 per m3 when delivered by tankers and without subsidies) but this remains easily affordable. The amounts of water someone needs to drink on a daily basis is very low, even in a desert country. Even when water is much harder to get you would expect prices that are maybe tenfold that, high, but affordable. Cleaning of course would take a far lower priority.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 06, 2012, 03:35:35 PM
It also should be well within the technology of the Imperium to create an Arrakis style stillsuit.
Given the colossal degree to which Dune influenced 40k, the things from the Duniverse that wouldn't fit into the GrimDark could be written on the back of a postage stamp.

I am entirely in support of this idea.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Draco Ferox on February 06, 2012, 04:43:01 PM
[Ah... a very good point, and one that I'm kicking myself in the head over (figuratively, although I would like to be that flexible). In spite of the better response to visually opaque conditions - but let's be honest about that, if you can actually see them to shoot them, then a lasgun wouldn't have that much trouble vaporising what sand might have been in the way - solid shot weapons just don't make as much sense as the low moving part mechanism of lasers.

I seem to remember a Gaun't Ghosts novel set on the world of Jago, which was supremely dusty. The fine dust kept getting into weapons and fouling them, as it blocked up parts of the weapon (I vaguely remember something about lenses and spitting on them to clear them).

Octavian, you haven't provided prices in the shop for other mundane items such as gas masks, dust scarves (on an arid world, this seems sensible), auspexes (auspices?) and so forth. If I was playing a campaign , I would try to get a pry-bar for one of my characters fairly quickly, as it's such a useful item when attempting to break into a location/crate/enemy's head.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 06, 2012, 05:01:40 PM
I vaguely remember something about lenses and spitting on them to clear them
If a lasgun can punch through carapace armour, I don't doubt that any dust fouling the lenses would be vaporised in the first microsecond of the laser pulse.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 06, 2012, 05:08:01 PM
Some re-jigging will be necessary I think!
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 06, 2012, 05:08:52 PM
It depends on the kind of dust. It might, if it has the right properties, also scatter the beam in a different direction, which could hamper the accuracy a lot.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Draco Ferox on February 06, 2012, 05:26:36 PM
If a lasgun can punch through carapace armour, I don't doubt that any dust fouling the lenses would be vaporised in the first microsecond of the laser pulse.

I would say that if the dust prevents the beam from focusing, then it wouldn't have enough power to vapourise that dust. And if that dust is fine sand, putting a laser beam through it could (working form a basic knowledge of science where lasers = beam of light, light has energy, energy agitates molecules and causes heating) turn it into glass, and having a collimator/lasing chamber/lens covered in glass is likely to disrupt the weapon even more than dust would.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 06, 2012, 05:56:45 PM
I would say that if the dust prevents the beam from focusing, then it wouldn't have enough power to vapourise that dust.
Lasers don't need focusing. They're already coherent inside the gas tube (which has to be sealed), and would become less focused (due to beam dispersion) the further from the muzzle you were.

Quote
And if that dust is fine sand, putting a laser beam through it could turn it into glass
Sand becomes glass if it's been melted, not if it's been boiled off into the atmosphere - and given how quickly that would happen, the sand's effect on the overall accuracy of the laser pulse would be trivial.

Worst case scenario, a real world solution would work: Tape over the muzzle. Stops sand getting inside, but absolutely no impediment to a bullet if you need to start shooting (the negligible effect on accuracy would be gone after the first shot). After you're done shooting, reapply tape.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Kaled on February 06, 2012, 06:12:49 PM
Back to money for a moment - are players going to also need to save money for other things necessary to the story of the campaign?  For example, paying a smuggler to sneak them into a heavily guarded township, or bribing a guard to let them into a warehouse prior to the start of the next scenario.

While I can see the appeal of a system of shops and money, I'm not sure it's necessary for Inqusitor which only really focuses on the narrative of the confrontations between warbands (or warband & NPCs).  Such things should be saved for Dark Heresy - in fact there's nothing to stop you playing out your campaign across both systems (and you could even branch out into more systems if you need large scale battles or fleet actions).
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 06, 2012, 06:23:23 PM
It was mainly a system for buying equipment such as ammo and cloths, but I feel it is probably not necessary after this dicussion.

Can we please stop the discussion about lasguns over solid! My planet if famed for it's production of solid shot weapons (simpler to mass produce) and las weapons are expensive here.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 06, 2012, 07:11:12 PM
Can we please stop the discussion about lasguns over solid!
If we're not allowed to critique the decisions you've made about supply and demand, I'm left wondering exactly what you do expect from us.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 06, 2012, 07:14:47 PM
Perhaps he just wanted some input about his trading system, instead of his world and physics.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 06, 2012, 07:26:04 PM
I'll leave the weaponry merits discussion alone, but in the case you don't your price list reviewed, posting the entire thing is a) going to make exactly that possible and b) never going to give the right message.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 06, 2012, 08:32:24 PM
Thanks, I am very busy (lots: english essay, physics test, DM article, 2 RPs, school!)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 06, 2012, 08:41:56 PM
I know the problem, there just is too little time in the world, especially with this game also taking up a lot.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 06, 2012, 08:49:26 PM
I have a long weekend on thursday/friday/monday, so I will see what I can do then.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Alyster Wick on February 07, 2012, 04:39:06 AM
I'm actually left quite fascinated by what could be done in-game if food or water levels were low. Providing that every warband would automatically have some Dune style suit and/or urine cleanser along with a suitable supply of hyper-dense caloric pills you could assume (for practical purposes) that no one would die of starvation/dehydration (just because no one wants to go that unheroically).

However you could level some fun penalties for folks who decide to forgo purchasing sustenance in favor of ammo. While they are able to sustain their body with the supplies they have on them it would still leave them exhausted, starving and thirsty.

Some quick suggestions, someone suffering from hunger must pass a leadership test or lose an action as they are distracted by their stomach growling and thoughts of food. A dehydrated character treats anything faster than a walk or lifting more than half their encumbrance as a risky action and collapse for d3 turns if they fail. Minor hunger/dehydration could just modify risky action rolls so that you need more 6s than 1s (rather than more than or equal to) in order to cancel out a risky action. You could ad d3 to your injury total each turn if a T test is failed for hunger or thirst. A roll of 96+ could mean you have to roll on the hallucination table. Perhaps you pass at on 100.

Anyway, I just threw out a bunch of random ideas. You could even make a table and roll for a hungry/starving person before the game begins. And that doesn't even get into the fun you could have if an Inquisitor who is force-marching his mutinous staff on low rations runs into a Rogue Trader flush with food (hungry dogs and all that).

Sorry, your post just got me thinking and I went on a tangent.

As far as water being expensive I think it's a perfectly valid idea, just not THAT much more expensive than guns. The act of creating pipelines may be relatively simple and water purification may be rather advanced in the future but that all ignores the human factor which can really screw things up. Let's say that a coastal province controls all access to water. They can easily live in luxury by charging ridiculous prices to their land-locked brethren. Of course those brethren may be on constant digging expeditions in search of hidden water caches in the soil and who knows what else they may dig up...

My whole point with that is you may be able to quash certain aspects of your general idea with science but the corruption of man can easily compensate in making an interesting clash. Honestly that whole idea that I proposed is nothing more than a grim-darkified version of a local political spat going on in my region. Nowhere near as dire (it could go on the list of "first world problems") but I find that political machination make for infinitely more interesting subplots than natural quirks.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 07, 2012, 07:07:50 AM
Thanks, it also gave me the idea for convoy raids etc. as well as meet the BM trader without the other warband gathering evidence!
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 07, 2012, 07:24:58 AM
I also did a small edit to the comodities and liquids:

Commodities
Name   Low quality price   High Quality Price
Camel   750   1500
1L water   25   40
Headgear   10   20
Human Slave   500   1000
Mutant Slave   200   250
Robes   15   30
Tent   50   100
Other liquids (l)
Name   Price (£)
Pure water   300
Strachaen camel blood   50
Bluegrass nutrient infused water   50
Greenberry nutrient infused water   65
Food (Kg)
Name   Price (£)
Flatbread   10
Strachaen camel steak   15
Orangeberries   90
Rare Game steak (RIV etc.)   5000
Import cuisine (see GM)   (see GM)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Kaled on February 07, 2012, 07:42:59 AM
You could simplify things by having a random events table(s) that players roll on after each game.  Perhaps they fail to fully replenish their ammo, or at all.  Perhaps they are low / desperately low / out of supplies.  Or maybe something good has happened, like they've managed to get a camel or some orangeberries.  Then have rules for how that affects the campaign.  It'd be easier than keeping track of money, and you could have modifiers to the tables based on what players were trying to do - so if they try to find food, they're less likely to find ammo.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 07, 2012, 07:53:30 AM
Sure, I was thinking about using it if a rogue trader came into the equation, but that seems like a good way to work it. Thanks. BTW the DM article is in the pipeline (working on the history)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 07, 2012, 01:29:37 PM
You could simplify things by having a random events table(s) that players roll on after each game. Then have rules for how that affects the campaign.
This could be more interesting.

At the kind of monetary scales Inquisitors/Rogue Traders/etc operate at, their income would easily stretch to supporting their water/ammo/etc requirements (unless someone's been blatting off heavy bolters full auto or something). Pretend to be an off-planetary noble who's there to negotiate some kind of trade deal ("Yes. Yes, I, I'm looking - to buy some... sand.") and no-one will much question the fact you've got a lot of money, particularly if your bodyguards are big and thuggish enough.

At this point, the problem is really more about finding the stuff you need to buy. And failures would be important to the plot. If one warband fails to find enough water, then perhaps there could be a scenario about their attempts to get more - maybe they're trying to steal it from another warband, maybe another warband is deliberately impeding their attempts to try and force them out of the running through dehydration.

As a question, how will you deal with characters who have their own warp capable craft? They carry months (if not years) of supplies and will have their own on-board armouries, be it for simply for arming the thugs who keep the crew in line/defend against boarding actions, or dedicated personal affairs.
If push came to shove, few of my characters would have objections to shuttling down a couple of giant water drums and a big crate of ammo if they hit a real shortage of supplies...
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 07, 2012, 02:20:28 PM
I was going to say that you are cut off from your ship/all supplies are required.
Also, you may want to look poor
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Alyster Wick on February 07, 2012, 02:43:28 PM
You could simplify things by having a random events table(s) that players roll on after each game.

At the kind of monetary scales Inquisitors/Rogue Traders/etc operate at, their income would easily stretch to supporting their water/ammo/etc requirements (unless someone's been blatting off heavy bolters full auto or something). [...]

As a question, how will you deal with characters who have their own warp capable craft? They carry months (if not years) of supplies and will have their own on-board armouries [...]
If push came to shove, few of my characters would have objections to shuttling down a couple of giant water drums and a big crate of ammo if they hit a real shortage of supplies...


I'm going to go ahead and agree with everything Kaled and Marco said. A table is a simple and elegant solution to your problem which also has the advantages of giving full excuses to some of the questions Marco raises (if a warp storm prevents any craft from landing it could be a big problem for everyone).

In the way of other solutions, you could perhaps have the planet be incredibly restricted with the access it gives to aircraft so the only way a warband could get resupplied without going through the normal routes would be by invoking their Inquisitorial privilege in which case their landing may attract the other warband to attempt to steal their supplies (not to mention other undesirables who, living on their backwater planet, do not full realize the power of the Inquisition).

Anyway, the store is great in concept but may be difficult in execution. Having a table to roll on will require the same careful ammo counting (as character will be completely unsure when they next supplies may come in) and difficult decisions without the extra hassle of screwing around tracking money. I can quickly see it becoming incredibly cumbersome and more of a chore versus the streamlines simplicity of a table. And as GM I think it will also help you come up with creative scenarios or at least give some added tension.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: MarcoSkoll on February 07, 2012, 03:08:50 PM
How, exactly, are they cut off from the ship? If a shuttle got them down there to begin with, why can it not get food down? Players may get a bit bored of the "violent sandstorms" if they start just conveniently after their landing and they're now into what is apparently the third week of freak conditions.

Alyster Wick has something of an excuse, but I can see ways around that too.
Simply spreading around enough bribes would let you get around invoking Inquisitorial privelage - or if you were playing the part of the Inquisition, just simply refusing to tell anyone where you were going to land the shuttle (avoiding any pre-planted ambushes).
In either case, many characters would think little of bringing down a platoon of heavy armsmen with the shuttle to protect the delivery.

Also, what if their ship has a teleporter which can just get straight past such things? The "strong solar interference" line will also wear thin.

~~~~~

As far as resources being so stretched that a ship with thousands of crew seriously can't find enough resources to support its owner and his half dozen allies, what's to be said to simply finding a few of the menials and "firing them" (which could be between "you're no longer needed, get off the ship" to "No, this isn't one of the airlocks, what are you talking about...?") to make up that deficit?

Quote
Also, you may want to look poor
But that's a may.
Why would the characters want to look poor - are there going to be campaign advantages to pretending to be a dust worker rather than a wealthy noble?  If there aren't, then players will be keen to take on the wealthy cover identity that let them explain their equipment and resources... (particularly important when you've got to explain a character with expensive custom bionics).

Would all the characters even stoop to pretending to be lower class? I know I've got characters that wouldn't (or for reasons similar to the above bionic reasoning, couldn't).
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 07, 2012, 03:59:54 PM
Velterax is a militarised planet so maybe the air traffic control is tight, with slots booked weeks (read months) in advance, but I see what you mean about sandstorm/solar/lack of supplies excuses.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 07, 2012, 05:56:47 PM
You could perhaps have something like specific, regular windows which are the only time shuttles can fly, this could maybe be caused by solar radiation and only when a moon blocks this the shuttles can fly safely.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 07, 2012, 06:20:18 PM
I felt my system shows the immense Beaurocracy of the imperium, but I could easily incorporate elements of your theory.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Alyster Wick on February 08, 2012, 03:40:20 AM
I felt my system shows the immense Beaurocracy of the imperium, but I could easily incorporate elements of your theory.

I think bureaucracy is a completely acceptable reason. Travel is extremely restricted to the major cities, it isn't impossible to travel outside of there but communications are heavily monitored. Inquisitorial code may be impossible to crack for most conventional Imperial agents but they can still tell when and where the communications occur (and maybe there is a talented savant unscrambling code for fun who stumbles upon something they were never supposed to hear).

Anyway, the Inquisitors clearly can get (well defended) supplies delivered but to do so would give away their status and take a good amount of time. If you have a campaign that necessitates secrecy (or at least strongly incentives it) and runs on a tight time table you're golden (even Inquisitors can't get around time, unless their ordos chronos I suppose...)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 08, 2012, 07:22:49 AM
My plan was to have some stats such as rarity and finance
rarity represents how rare something is and to find it you subtract finance from Ld then take a test (multiple modifiers may be added and if passed, all items are found)
finance is a cost, so expensive items eat into your finance limit. This represents items like power and bolt weapons. Each group will have a finance limit decided in a characterful way.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Draco Ferox on February 08, 2012, 07:58:57 AM
Of course, as soon as my inquisitor's cover is blown, he's going to whip out his rosette and start requisitioning things like guns and supplies left, right and centre, as there's no need for stealth, and be might as well use it if he needs/wants/temporarily likes something. It's abuse of power,but with an unlimited amount, he's not going to run out any time soon.

Bureaucracy seems a good way to stop players doing things- they might well shuttle down more supplies in an unauthorised drop, but that could mean the non-cooperation of several of the main factions on the planet.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Dolnikan on February 08, 2012, 02:03:42 PM
If a character starts just requisitioning all sorts of things you could also give other players an edge against them, they are, after all, much easier to find.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Ynek on February 08, 2012, 02:56:09 PM
An easy way to add an advantage to "looking poor" is that people won't try to rob you.
If your Inquisitor, decked from head to toe in shiny things, happens to take a bullet to a tender spot during a firefight and gets knocked unconscious, a crowd of impoverished bystanders (read: thieves) might decide to descend upon the stricken hero and strip him of anything valuable.

That precious, thousand year old power sword and heirloom digi melta aren't worth much to you when they've been stolen, are they? That beaten up old revolver and flint knife sound pretty good about now, huh?

Also, I agree that the clerical system of a low-tech imperial world might mean that a person has to apply for landing clearance weeks in advance. Just because you are an Inquisitor with limitless authority does not mean that the planet's defences will KNOW that you are an inquisitor with limitless authority. After applying for landing clearance, the documents would have to be countersigned in triplicate and authenticated before being passed on to a reprographics officer who would in turn make several copies, each of which would be taken to the defensive batteries, where they would be examined by the commanding officer, and a read-reciept is sent back to general HQ, which is in turn countersigned in triplicate and filed in the proper and timely manner before the Inquisitor is told: "Yep. Safe for you to land now."

Just because you're an Inquisitor won't stop them from shooting you down if nobody has told them not to.
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Inquisitor Octavian Lars on February 08, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
Good points there! I was planning to make an undercover version of octavian (like kaled)
Title: Re: Campaign "shops"
Post by: Draco Ferox on February 08, 2012, 10:53:36 PM
Thanks for knocking down the requisitioning idea. I like it when people show me the weaknesses of what I am tying to achieve, so that I can do it better next time.

I like Ynek's description of the bureaucracy, but think that maybe a better description would be that of the Vogons in the hitchhiker's guide. To quote:

They wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters.

Sound like any self-important administratum adepts?