Morning all,
I created the Carthax sector as a sandbox for our Inquisitor games, a way to tie our character's together and help facilitate playing games, telling stories and having fun. On a whim, I said it was in the Segmentum Pacificus but there was never really any reason for picking a particular segmentum.
Now I'm proposing that we move it to the Ultima Segmentum. The main driver is to put it closer to Molotov's Dalthus sector to make it easier for the two groups to play games together, but there are other advantages - for example, it better explains the Tau and Ultramarine presence in Carthax.
Looking at the wiki, we have references to the Solar, Tempestus, Obscurus and Ultima Segmenta, so the characters in Carthax are obviously well travelled anyway. There is a note that the Velterax sector is far distant from Carthax as it is in the Ultima Segmentum, so if we do move Carthax that physical distance can be maintained if we like by putting them at opposite sides of the segmentum. Otherwise I don't see an issue with moving it, but does anyone else see any issues with the idea?
I do have a plan B - to simply remove mention of exactly where Carthax is and leave it to the EYHBTIAL principle.
Thoughts?
- Dave
i suppose the question is has anyone referenced it's galactic location?
plus has anyone marked it on the Map Of The Imperium?
makes little odds to me; with the relative ease the Inquisition can commandeer ships and some vague made-up-planet names on my part it's Segmentum makes little difference :)
Around where in the Ultima Segmentum would it be then? My own Doristor Sector is the Segmentum Pacificus but I could move it around to get it a bit closer.
Quote from: greenstuff_gav on June 15, 2012, 08:12:07 AM
i suppose the question is has anyone referenced it's galactic location?
plus has anyone marked it on the Map Of The Imperium?
As far as I can see the answer is 'no' to both questions - but I could be wrong... Generally I think most people see it as being pretty much wherever they want it to be - I certainly wouldn't have been able to tell you where it was had someone not brought up it's location the other day.
Quote from: Dolnikan on June 15, 2012, 08:22:57 AM
Around where in the Ultima Segmentum would it be then? My own Doristor Sector is the Segmentum Pacificus but I could move it around to get it a bit closer.
I don't know - somewhere in the east. Personally I prefer not to tie things down too much - my general thoughts were always that Carthax was close enough to Tau space to explain their presence, close enough to the Eye of Terror so that it could factor in to events and close enough to Terra that characters can pop over there if they want.
Yes, I have a slight issue as The Wilderwest would no longer make any sense, and I'm almost done writing a Charon piece which won't make any sense either (neither will any of my character backgrounds). All my invested work would be for nought.
Quote from: Kaled on June 15, 2012, 08:30:08 AM
I don't know - somewhere in the east. Personally I prefer not to tie things down too much - my general thoughts were always that Carthax was close enough to Tau space to explain their presence, close enough to the Eye of Terror so that it could factor in to events and close enough to Terra that characters can pop over there if they want.
Seriously?
This would be the Tau, whose empire was so far away from the Eye that they needed to have a whole separate worldwide campaign during the 13th black crusade just to give Tau players something to do that wouldn't be utterly unfeasible.
to say nothing of the locations of Terra and the Eye themselves. Here, you can have a diagram (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/270/2/d/Warhammer_40K_Galaxy_Map_by_ikkaan.jpg)
Eye of terror and Terra? relatively close to each other, although still far enough away that any kind of regular back-and-forth isn't likely, but a location somewhere around Colcha or Melathor wouldn't be too unreasonable - which would be, funnily enough, in the Segmentum Pacificus (Putting aside for a moment that if there was an area reasonably near both the Eye and Terra...well, that would present something of a problem, and also putting aside that neither of these galactic landmarks are
near the Ultima Segmentum)
Now look all the way over to the right. See that thing on the opposite end of the galaxy to the Eye? little blue box with all those Tyranid Hive Fleets making a bee-line for it? That's the Tau Empire. All of it.
Your "on a whim" placement of the Carthax sector actually works for two of the three landmarks you want, it also doesn't invalidate anyone's background. Your new placement in the Ultima segmentum doesn't fulfill your goals and breaks people's existing background.
Which do you think is the better choice?
Bloody hell Charax, you don't have to be that damn patronising.
I, personally, think that getting it in towards the Eye of Terror might be a stretch if you're explaining Tau presence, but it's less of a stretch to have the Maelstrom featuring. To that end I'd probably recommend somewhere around the Tempestus/Ultima border, maybe sitting around the rimward part of the Orion Arm. If you're also willing to sacrifice the Terra angle then it could feasibly be anywhere on the Eastern Fringe. You even get to keep the bits referring to Halo Stars if you do that.
Quote from: Charax on June 15, 2012, 04:56:04 PM
Which do you think is the better choice?
That depends on what you think the purpose of Carthax is. My objective in setting it up was to be a collective sandbox where people could write about their characters and tie them into a story. I'm well aware of the geography - when I said it's close enough to Terra, Tau space and the Eye of Terror I was basically saying I don't care too much where it is - I don't see it as being important.
That said, I certainly have no desire to ruin anyone's hard work so I will probably do what I should have done originally and leave it's location undefined so people can be free to imagine it as being wherever they want it to be.
Quote from: Kaled on June 15, 2012, 05:27:16 PMI don't care too much where it is - I don't see it as being important.
[...]
I will probably do what I should have done originally and leave it's location undefined so people can be free to imagine it as being wherever they want it to be.
That would actually kill it for me, as I can see "leaving its location undefined" turning into a geographic mash-up. It's also not very convincing.
At least let it be
somewhere.
Quote from: Koval on June 15, 2012, 05:31:32 PM
That would actually kill it for me, as I can see "leaving its location undefined" turning into a geographic mash-up. It's also not very convincing.
Isn't it a geographic mash-up anyway?
Quote from: Koval on June 15, 2012, 05:20:37 PMIf you're also willing to sacrifice the Terra angle then it could feasibly be anywhere on the Eastern Fringe. You even get to keep the bits referring to Halo Stars if you do that.
Yeah, MY work referring to the Halo Stars, set in the WESTERN side of the galaxy.
Quote from: Kaled on June 15, 2012, 05:27:16 PMThat said, I certainly have no desire to ruin anyone's hard work so I will probably do what I should have done originally and leave it's location undefined so people can be free to imagine it as being wherever they want it to be.
Same problem, you may just say "The Carthax Sector IS the Imperium" if it is to be just 'undisclosed' and you then have the same problem with peoples work conflicting.
Quote from: Macabre on June 15, 2012, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: Koval on June 15, 2012, 05:20:37 PMIf you're also willing to sacrifice the Terra angle then it could feasibly be anywhere on the Eastern Fringe. You even get to keep the bits referring to Halo Stars if you do that.
Yeah, MY work referring to the Halo Stars, set in the WESTERN side of the galaxy.
I was referring more to the fact that the Halo Stars are, well, a halo around the galaxy, rather than a single discrete region in some place. Presumably other people have made mention of the Halo Stars too.
I have to admit, I'm more than a little reluctant to be shoving the Carthax sector around myself.
Much though I would like to see excuses against having a combined event silenced, Carthax has been sitting where it is (in my mind, about 4000 ly to the galactic NNW of the Sabbat worlds, making it one of the most westerly points of Imperium space) for two and a half years - which means that location specific background has been written.
Sure, there's a few anatopisms, like the Tau. But it's a game, for Throne's sake.
If we have to be a bit generous about the geography for the sake of doing some cool stuff, then we bend a few rules.
The Tau were brought here by some particularly rogue Rogue Traders; Carthax manages to survive on the fringes of space because it has some spectacular warp links to further in-segmentum; all Carthaxian ships follow a large red line that lets them cross the galaxy in a 15 second scene that looks cool and saves runtime on the final cut of the film - whatever the reasons, I don't really care.
I can dig up any number of cases of these anatopisms.
~~~~~
- Eisenhorn knowing about the Tyranids - aside from the fact this was 200 years before they had been sighted (D'oh), Tyranids are in the south of the galaxy, the Helican/Scarus sectors are in the northwest. Yes, it's only information, but still very far travelled. But then, Abnett.
- The suits used by Spyrers on Necromunda are Tau tech. And that distance is already 90% of that to where I choose to place Carthax.
- Almost any Space Marine chapter any time it appears in the fluff doing something other than getting massacred on their homeworld. To take the 2nd Armageddon War (north part of Segmentum Solar) as an example, the Ultramarines, Salamanders and Blood Angels were the chapters that came to the rescue.
Macragge - Sagittarius Arm, south part of Ultima Segmentum (~30,000 ly)
Nocturne - Cygnus arm, south of the galactic core. Again, Ultima Segmentum (~15,000 ly)
Baal - Cygnus arm, northeast of the galactic core. Guess what - Ultima Segmentum (~10,000 ly)
Given the treks involved, these were the three chapters that intervened? (Funny, also, that they're all First legions). Even if it had been the Imperial Fists, who are at least in Segmentum Solar, that's still many, many sectors away.
(The Space Wolves had a bit more of an excuse in the 1st War, as despite being in another Segmentum, they're actually closer.)
~~~~~
For anyone who accepts these things as part of their canon, I'm not exactly sure where the problem arises. Nominally, yes, we get told that these trips should take years, decades, maybe even centuries, but GW clearly has never stuck to this rule themselves.
I personally would prefer things are left as they are. A lot of work has gone in to establishing the Wiki which would be overridden by a location change for one, and as Marco has eluded to, a stable warp route to wherever else is all that's needed to link another sector. It's already been done with the Velterax sector - just bolt the Dalthus sector onto it with another warp leap and the job's a good 'un.
Ruaridh
Very well, given the weight of opinion for leaving it where it is, I withdraw the suggestion for changing it.
Quote from: Van Helser on June 15, 2012, 08:21:53 PMA stable warp route to wherever else is all that's needed to link another sector.
Pretty much, yes. I've always taken it that there's little (and in many cases, no) correlation between real space and warp distance - or time, for that matter.
I feel it's now time to quote my infamously nutty post on the nature of the warp:
Quote...the warp. Time and distance flow like water there. Seconds turn into years, years turn into hours, hours turn into centimetres, centimetres turn into walruses. It's a realm of no fixed rules, and as many or as few dimensions as it likes.
I think it's worthwhile my chiming in to say that, to be honest, I had in in my head that Carthax was located to the galactic north somewhere, as opposed to the outer western fringe. That's not to say that I think either is a better placing, just that, despite keeping reasonably up-to-date with conclave stuff, I couldn't have told you with any certainty Carthax was - which is probably the same for most people.
Quote from: Kaled on June 15, 2012, 10:54:39 PM
Very well, given the weight of opinion for leaving it where it is, I withdraw the suggestion for changing it.
Probably for the best, so long as it's now defined.
Quote from: Koval on June 16, 2012, 05:57:18 AMProbably for the best, so long as it's now defined.
Hear, hear.
For the record, I was thinking of it as being (based on the big map (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/270/2/d/Warhammer_40K_Galaxy_Map_by_ikkaan.jpg)) about two-thirds of the way from Balhaut to Macharia, give or take. Whether that was anywhere near the mark or not, now would seem to be the time to nail it down. Better some mild headaches than leaving it open for reams of mutually contradictory fluff. Let's leave that to the Black Library, aye? ;) ;D
If you guys want to define it's location more precisely (or even follow Molotov's lead and start mapping Carthax like he has done with Dalthus) then feel free.
If we do that, then we'll be missing off Pillarus Prime and most likely a huge chunk of space in the middle...
To be quite honest I would prefer the sector to be unmapped to allow people to inject planets wherever they like.
Aside from in existing subsectors, you mean? :P
I'm moderately likely to "half" map out the Cuir Subsector at some point, given it's really my corner of things. However, I fully expect that a) I'll never be done putting it together and b) it'll turn out fething massive.
I know the list I've got on the wiki isn't complete - but I am finally starting to actually have multiple characters hailing from the same worlds, rather than just making up a new one every time, so things are improving.
I started doing that a while ago, albeit outside of Carthax...
On a largely unrelated side note, I borrowed Cuir for Andreas' place of origin -- he's Ismenean, or whichever demonym applies to folks from Ismene.
I think Ismenean works.
By chance, it happens I've just posted up some of the notes on Ismene (http://carthax.wikispaces.com/Ismene+IX). At least, what of it I could remember from our last DH adventure - unfortunately, not all my notes were typed.
I do have more stuff about Tertius hive (our DH setting), Scrall hive (Gala's home) and one of the spaceports (given we had to go through there) though, so more about those can go up when I've put the words in order.
For our group we have designed part of a sector, but it keeps growing and growing, luckily there never have been any clear numbers of planets mentioned for a sector.