The Conclave

I just thought I would share the first character I attempted to create: I also would love it if somebody crunched the numbers for his "ready reckoning" and can tell me if I was off or not! Without further ado, here is my sample Commissar (created based on an Inquisitor):

CHARACTER PROFILE---------------------------  Commissar Mathiam Krault
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BIOGRAPHY:
   Commissar Mathiam Krault was born the son of a wealthy Imperial Guard general on the post-apocalyptic planet of Alascadia. His mother had fallen prey to an attempt on the General's life, when the ill-trained assassin mistook her for his target in the darkened bedchambers, as the young Mathiam was just turning six standard years old. His father's regiment was called upon to serve in the war against the Tyranid Hive Fleet Gargantuan that was invading a sector nearby, and fate left the boy orphaned soon after.
   Due to his father's glorious efforts in his final battle, the boy was admitted into the Schola Progenium. Soon after his admittance he was inducted into the Commissariat because of his innate grasp of oratory manipulation and inspiration. His scores in the combat subjects were passing, earning the young boy his place among the Imperium's Political Officers.
   His graduation gift was a particularly rare and special item: the Powerfist his father wore in his final battle with the Tyranid onslaught.
   This is his first assignment upon graduating, and he is eager to show his worth, as well as avenge his father's memory. There is no battle he will shirk from, no task he will leave undone, and no man he will leave behind... as long as they remain loyal to the Golden Throne, that is.

STATISTICS:

WS   BS   S   T   I   Wp   Sg   Nv   Ld
75    78  69 67 88  92   85   92    84
Cost: 89

ABILITIES:
Right-Handed, Leader, Force of Will, Rock-steady Aim, Deflect Shot
Cost: 20

RANGED WEAPONS:
Name         Type   Rng   Mode                  Acc   Dmg          Shots   Rld   Wgt   Cost
Bolt Pistol  Pistol    J    Single/semi (2)       -     2D10+4       12      2      25       5

CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS:
Name         Reach     Damage     Parry Penalty     Cost
Powerfist      1          2D10+5        -25.00%            9

ARMOR:
   Reflective Carapace torso 6 points, Flak 3 points all others, Refractor field.
Cost: 33

OTHER EQUIPMENT: (Cost)
   4 Bolt Pistol reloads ( 8 ), Lasersight ( 5 )

TOTAL POINT COST:  --169



And there you have it! Any input would be appreciated!

Why use the Ready Reckoner? It doesn't really help you build 'balanced' characters.  If you need help choosing stats, take a look at the thread on the 'Conclave standard' character - quite a few of those look a touch high... I'd also drop some of those skills; Deflect Shot and Force of Will for a start. He also seems rather over-equipped, fine for a battlefield but a bit ott for the sorts of situations he'd find himself in in Inquisitor.

Quote from: foxphoenix135 on December 23, 2009, 07:56:23 PMI also would love it if somebody crunched the numbers for his "ready reckoning" and can tell me if I was off or not!

IMO, the ready reckoner is one of the worst things the game ever got laden with. It gives people a false sense of "this model is fair" - when actually, two characters with the same RR "points value" can be entirely uneven on the table. It shouldn't be treated with any seriousness whatsoever.

Next step... Personally, as you've used the "back of the book" profiles, it goes mostly without saying I'm going to find your profile considerably over the top. (Most people around here judge based on the stat descriptions near the front of the rulebook)

All of your stats are either above 70, or incredibly close. In my own opinion, stats above 70 should be applied carefully, and sparingly - for most stats, 70 or above represents an exceptional level in its own right, and even though our Inquisitor characters are pretty special, they can't be masters of all trades.

Awesome! This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. So you guys don't use the randomized "back of the book" stat values? That makes sense... Yeah reading the comparisons I now realize a lot of these values are way too high.  Some of them make sense being well above-average (i.e. willpower and nerve) for an Imperial Commissar, so they may stay, but things like his weapon and ballistic skills are just too high..

Quote from: foxphoenix135 on December 24, 2009, 02:24:13 AMSo you guys don't use the randomized "back of the book" stat values?

I'm not aware of any of the forum regulars using randomised profiles. The problem is that random stat-lines are exceptionally unlikely to fit the character background.

I myself tend to sit down and work through the stat-line value by value, giving them the character stats I think are appropriate for them:

- Inquisitor Skoll has spent his entire life around guns, understands the physics of firearms well (he trained as a gunsmith in his youth), and keeps himself in practice - he therefore deserves a high Ballistic Skill of 73.
- Frost is a 5 foot tall female, so she can't be too strong. She is however a mercenary for whom being in lax physical condition could be fatal, so she regularly trains. She gets a reasonable Strength 55.

That's the kind of way I work at things - others around here do similar things, although there is sometimes a certain amount of difference in opinion about what skill level a certain stat value represents.

Ok, that makes sense. I'm not very familiar with the whole "Choose your own stats" aspect, as my last RPG with a character creation system was Mechwarrior, 3rd Ed. It had a character path similar to what I have heard Dark Heresy has.

This is what I adjusted the stats to:

STATISTICS:
WS  BS   S    T   I   Wp   Sg   Nv   Ld
62   68  53  54 77  82    71   72   76
Cost: 69

ABILITIES:
Right-Handed, Leader, Force of Will
Cost: 10

Making the total cost of the charter 125 points.

The idea behind my warband might be worth explaining. I will do so now...

The Commissar is to his warband what an Inquisitor is to his retinue: the absolute leader and hard-willed combat veteran. A commissar does not carry the absolute authority of the Inquisition, but it is pretty close. As a political representative of the Imperium, he carries the authority to execute dissidents and the weak-willed traitors that would defy the authority of the Golden Throne.

The Commissar is likely to have a bodyguard or two, if he has enough political clout. This kind of individual is a paid soldier, and thus delegates little time to activities outside of keeping their combat skills sharp. They also may be lacking in personality, and do little more than what they are told. Sometimes there is a break in this stereotype, but it is rare.

In addition to bodyguards, the Commissar may have an adjutant. The types of these adjutants vary, but common roles may include administrative assistants, communications officers, and militant advisors. The commissar may also take a battlefield medic as his adjutant, as the two fight a similar battle both in and  out of the field: The medic for the body, the commissar for the soul.

Commissars are not only assigned to battlefield duties. As political officers, they can operate a bit more overtly than the forces of the Inquisition. As part of the Ecclesiarchy, he has contacts or associates on nearly every Imperial world.




Any other suggestions?

Quote from: foxphoenix135 on December 24, 2009, 04:57:23 AMAny other suggestions?

Well, for practical purposes, if a Commissar is not assigned to a regiment to be supplied with bolt ammunition, they'd probably switch to a more practical ranged weapon - perhaps an autopistol or laspistol.
I've rambled on boltguns before, but the simple version is that bolters are what you carry into a warzone, not what you carry on the off-chance of ending up in a scrap  - many Inquisitor scenarios are chance meetings, so characters wouldn't automatically come entirely prepared with heavy battlefield equipment.

Similarly, I'd probably also cut him back to just a powersword - a powerfist is horribly impractical, even in combat. Same as with the bolters above, you have to question why a character would carry a large bulky weapon around all the time.

(The above suggestions are also partly because the combination of bolt and power weapons is rather nasty!)

I might also be wary of combining too much armour with forcefields - the two together can be nigh on impenetrable, and unfair. But I guess you're not too over the top.

However, depending on whether you see your commissar as a political officer or a soldier "off the field"...
Based on how I would stat a soldier (I should note that I don't rank "fit human" and "soldier" as the same, like the rulebook does), I'd think the Commissar deserves a S & T increase - possibly as much as 10 points each.

Another skill wouldn't be too much of an issue either, so if you did want to keep the Rock Steady Aim or something...

Other than that, I think it's a pretty fair character now.

Other things that spring to mind are, how does he get around? What brings him into the sorts of scenarios we see in this game? Is he a bit of a wandering troubleshooter sent in by the powers that be? Or is it just bad luck that he comes up against the Inquisition so often?  I think the weapons are a bit ott still - fine for a battlefield Commissar, but if he's not assigned battlefield duties then something less overt would be better.

Also, why are you calculating his points? Just as we don't tend to use the random generators, neither do we use the point values. They're unnecessary as the game isn't about perfectly balanced warbands coming into conflict, it's the GM's job to keep things 'fair'.

I'd personally tweak the Sg and I down by ten or fifteen points, other than that those stats look more or less alright for a Commissar who's kept himself in peak battlefield condition.

As to why he's in the game, you could go down the rogue Commissar route. Mad enough to actually think his remit extends beyond the Munitorum, he's taken it upon himself to root out what he considers to be heresy, perhaps? I seem to recall that was the basis for a short Eisenhorn story, although that didn't include a Commissar.

Tullio

Ok, I'll quit calculating the points then if they have no real determining factor in fairness...

Also, I know the weapons are still OTT, but the best I can do is drop the bolt pistol in favor of a laspistol. The powerfist is an integral piece of equipment to the character (mainly due to the model I have in mind). This is why I opted for only a single additional talent, to balance out the powerfist a bit.

The stats could still use a little bit more adjustment:

STATISTICS:
WS  BS   S    T   I   Wp   Sg   Nv   Ld
59   63  49  53 71  82    68   72   76

I don't think you really needed to adjust them any further down. Sure, if you imagine the character in such a fashion, go for it, but don't feel that the last stat-line was "overpowered".

Quote from: Kaled on December 24, 2009, 10:58:51 AMThey're unnecessary as the game isn't about perfectly balanced warbands coming into conflict.

That it isn't. And as I said earlier, even if it were about perfectly balanced warbands, the Ready Reckoner's system is not balanced enough so that two characters of equal "performance" are of equal RR points.

Anyway, I got bored a few years back (probably about five years ago) and decided to write a spreadsheet that calculated RR points. I still have it around, so for an experiment, I'm going to throw Inquisitor Skoll at it.

193 RR points, apparently. But those points come from things that don't equate to all that much on the battlefield. For example, his legendary Runesword is not worth 3 times a powersword, save perhaps if fighting a daemon. 24 points also go on a not very heavily used* Wyrd:Telekinesis power, and a psi-booster to go with it.
*A lot of the time, the only use is to make him a psyker, making his runesword usable - or sometimes, allowing him to resist powers targeted at him... or equally, just making him vulnerable to anti-psyker attacks.

Then he's got a smorgasbord of assorted trinkets - a flashlight, a lighter, a combi-tool, etc... which are all items that hardly ever get used on the table, but which still add up. One of his "skills" is only any use if another (specific) one of my characters is on the table...

In the end, even in spite of his extra "points", I wouldn't fancy his chances against the 169 point Commissar at the start - most of Skoll's stats are lower, his weapons less powerful and he has less armour (and no forcefield), so it's rather obvious the two aren't equivalent.

Anyway, that's enough on how the RR points aren't a good measure of a character's power.

Here is a picture of the model I am basing this character off of, painted by yours truly. I am quite pleased with it, and consider it one of my better paintjobs (since I am not all that great to begin with).

Quote from: foxphoenix135 on December 24, 2009, 06:35:49 PM
Also, I know the weapons are still OTT, but the best I can do is drop the bolt pistol in favor of a laspistol. The powerfist is an integral piece of equipment to the character (mainly due to the model I have in mind).

The problem you have is, IMHO, one of the problems with Inq28 for players coming straight from 40k - they're tempted to just use models straight from their army. Your character is equipped for 40k - he's both over-armoured and over-armed for Inquisitor; you need to get away from the whole 40k paradigm. A good start would be to reinvent your Commissar model - as long as you're using a 40k model you'll probably find it difficult to stop thinking in terms of what's appropriate for 40k and to get in the Inquisitor mindset.

The reason Molotov's Inq28 characters work is that they're quite different to standard 40k models - and that's why your character doesn't work for me.  Your description of the different roles Commissars perform is good background ideas for a character so it seems a shame to me that your character and model is straight from 40k.

P.S. Nice model btw!  

Alright, thanks for all the feedback! This topic has been most helpful. You are definitely right, Kaled, in the fact that I am stuck in the 40k mentality. I'll go back to the drawing board and design some characters from scratch... maybe in the future I will find a suitably-armed commissar model to use. Until then, maybe I'll stick to the forces of the Inquisition. I have some of the original Daemonhunter storm troopers, as well as many different forms of guardsmen, in addition to miniatures I have from other game systems that I can convert.

So what is the general consensus on Plasma weaponry? I have lots of plasma pistol bits on hand for converting, but I am somewhat reluctant to use them because they are supposed to be one of the rarer weapon types.

Finally, I am designing a kind of las-"smg" to use on my converted model. Any suggestions for a fair stat-line for such a weapon? I would like it to fire multiple rounds, without taking too much of a damage hit, but it can be expected for it's accuracy to take a hit. The other downside would be that it would burn through ammo faster, but for fluffy/modeling reasons I am ok with that.

40k models are designed as battlefield models - people you'd find equipped for immediate combat, not people wandering around in the dark shadows of the Imperium.

Picture yourself as that Commissar - you're on a mission as a political officer, weeding out corruption, and you're constantly encumbering yourself with a heavy powerfist? You're forever without the use of your dominant right hand, just so that on the small chance you should get attacked, you've got a stupidly powerful weapon.

... sorry, I don't see it.

QuoteSo what is the general consensus on Plasma weaponry?

My thoughts are to be wary of them. Not just because of the rarity, but also for the above reason - they're bulky weapons that you'd probably not want to constantly have to carry around.

QuoteFinally, I am designing a kind of las-"smg" to use on my converted model. Any suggestions for a fair stat-line for such a weapon?

Try checking out my Revised Inquisitor Armoury (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=33.0) - it's still in Beta, but the Lasgun section was added in the last update.

Lasweapons are built up from a list of parts, with literal thousands of possible combinations and statlines. There's more coming of course, but you shouldn't be too strained to find something of the right sort of feel.

Also, if you do decide to go with that plasma weapon, there is also a section for plasma weapons - well, most Imperial weapons to be honest. (Alien weapons are coming later on...)

There's no reason you can't have a Commissar - I quite liked your idea for one accompanied by a administrative officer, medic or comms officer (along with the odd trooper) you just need to get away from the battlefield image of a Commissar. You should be able to put together easily enough - the main thing is the hat.

Quote from: Kaled on December 24, 2009, 09:55:04 PMThere's no reason you can't have a Commissar

There certainly isn't - I'd like to see more Commissars on the Inquisitor table. I'm just not so keen on a Commissar who looks like he's come straight from the battlefield.

One possibility however is that maybe he gets dressed up in his powerfist get-up when he's weeded out "un-imperialness", and is now wading in to utterly crush it - but that he generally sticks to more practical equipment.
Kaled does much that kind of thing with his Inquisitorial namesake, with two Inquisitor Kaled models - one in "battle gear" - and one more moderately equipped for a more "average" day.

I'm considering doing a similar thing for some of the more heavily equipped of my characters (Probably Kai Gillmore without his Kasrkin* armour and maybe even Frost out of her combat gear), and giving them more "casual" models for when such a thing would be appropriate. However, as I seem to have made something of an unspoken agreement with myself that all my future Inq models are to be sculpted, those models will be some way off.

*Admittedly, a Kasrkin is something of a battlefield character, but I worked my friggin' guts out scratch sculpting his 54mm model - so he's no model plucked straight from a 40k army.

Generally, the more work that's gone into the model, the less people care if it has power weapons, bolt pistols, and such.

Hasn't some one worked on a 54mm inquisitor before. I seem to remember a lovely conversion.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on December 25, 2009, 02:52:13 AM

Quote from: Kaled on December 24, 2009, 09:55:04 PMThere's no reason you can't have a Commissar

There certainly isn't - I'd like to see more Commissars on the Inquisitor table. I'm just not so keen on a Commissar who looks like he's come straight from the battlefield.

One possibility however is that maybe he gets dressed up in his powerfist get-up when he's weeded out "un-imperialness", and is now wading in to utterly crush it - but that he generally sticks to more practical equipment.
Kaled does much that kind of thing with his Inquisitorial namesake, with two Inquisitor Kaled models - one in "battle gear" - and one more moderately equipped for a more "average" day.

I like this idea, but I lack the skills and funds to obtain another model for a commissar. Maybe sometime in the next year; time will tell.

Quote from: foxphoenix135 on December 25, 2009, 08:45:29 AM
I like this idea, but I lack the skills and funds to obtain another model for a commissar. Maybe sometime in the next year; time will tell.

I always thought the Baneblade commander body with the long coat would make a good starting point for a Commissar like this - with the right arms and head/hat he'd be perfect.

Well, I do have a converted model from another game system that may fit for a planetary Commisariat member, rather than a normal Commissar that belongs to the Ecclesiarchy. He lacks the peaked hat, but has a greatcoat and I sculpted a beret for him. He has pretty unique-looking armor that I thought was pretty decent-looking. I also got a few generic henchmen for him with projectile weapons and tactical gear. Stormtroopers with autoguns? Anyway, I am starting to see a good plot point with this character: A PDF Commissar goes insane, and takes over the system, which contains vital imperial supplies. Inquisitor sent as a covert means of removing the power-mad former planetary political officer.

(http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/7/7/41787_sm-Grr.jpg) (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/41787-Grr.html)

Quote from: Adlan on December 25, 2009, 07:46:43 AMGenerally, the more work that's gone into the model, the less people care if it has power weapons, bolt pistols, and such.

Mostly, yes. If you've really lavished work on converting/painting the model, and making it something special, people are more interested in playing against the cool model than bothered by its equipment (provided it's not completely unreasonable).

I wasn't in the slightest bothered by Orla Riall's 3D10+4 power weapon destroying Energy Blade (not quite the most damaging thing I've played against though) at the IGT in spite of facing it twice - because she's such a exceptionally brilliantly modelled character.

An interesting thread. I'm always glad to see someone approaching INQ28 - particularly because you seem to keen to go about it the right way.

Commissars are interesting characters, but you only need to look at the model you've got to see some potential problems. A power fist is a weapon capable of tearing through a tank. There we have a Commissar roaring prayers from the book just before leading his troops over the top - and that's a key part of the Commissar image, but it shows how he's a "battlefield" Commissar.

One of my favourite quotes when it comes to Inquisitor is from the introduction to the collected Eisenhorn trilogy, by Dan Abnett:

Quote'This wasn't about the battlefield, the front-line of mud and gas and behemoth engines. This was a glimpse behind the lines at the internal complexity of the Imperium. It offered a chance to explore what might be called the 'domestic' side of the Warhammer 40,000 universe: the daily, non-military, life - at work, at worship, at rest, at court, at slum-level. A chance to visit worlds that were not levelled by war, and see how the billions of Imperial citizens lived.

And also to find out what evils stalked them, even in the shadows of their own hive cities.'

A Commissar is certainly a character that could be suitable within the retinues of many Inquisitors. They provide a number of interesting skills that could be of use to an Inquisitor - they are faithful, stalwart, courageous, proficient with weapons and equipped with intimate knowledge of the Imperial military. They are able to lead, and are willing to kill to ensure the mission is completed. Of course, they may well have a certain moral inflexibility that might make them unsuitable, or that might complicate their work (but complications are what endear us to characters).

I'm not personally a fan of "insane Commissars"; I would suggest you look at your initial games as a lead-in to future scenarios. Perhaps a Commissar attached to a PDF unit begins to suspect something is amiss. Taking it upon himself to investigate (a trait that might make him useful to Ihquisitors in the future) he discovers a conspiracy at the heart of the planet's PDF threatening to take power in a bloody coup. This could be anything from a Chaos coven to a Genestealer cult. Gathering PDF troopers loyal to him, the Commissar sets out to eradicate the conspirators or die trying, determined to make a difference.

Depending on your tastes, the scale of the conspiracy could be anything from a couple of disgruntled officers to the entire PDF. It's entirely possible that your Commissar might find himself up against impossible odds, but then in the end, your Inquisitor could show up and save the day, inducting any survivors into his retinue. It provides a narrative hook to expand your games to the Inquisitorial arena, and gives you an interesting justification for just how an Inquisitor could see potentially useful characteristics in a Commissar.

If you're after a different model for a Commissar, you could do worse than considering this Mordian officer (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300112&prodId=prod1130427) - with a different paintjob you could conceivably pass him off as a Commissar.

The second commisar model, with the 'stormtroopers', fits better as a political commisar.  Stormtroopers are rather specialised aren't they?  Just elite guardsmen / planetary defence troopers would work - they are a good set of goons.

It doesn't necessarily have to be an insane commisar - maybe he had perfectly legitimate reasons for locking down the station, which would give PCs a path into the scenario other than 'shoot the madman'.

They're widely underused, but in many ways a natural choice of aides, certainly for inquisitors of a more puritanical bent, or one investigating military matters - they have a similar remit within the military to that of the inquisition (in a more limited sense), after all.

Quote from: Myriad on December 27, 2009, 11:16:10 AM
The second commisar model, with the 'stormtroopers', fits better as a political commisar.  Stormtroopers are rather specialised aren't they?

Personally, I'm quite fond of the idea of the Departmento Munitorum sometimes using its Stormtroopers as a form of military police, under the command of the ranking Commissar. Given that there are a couple of recent sources that suggest that many Commissars are former Stormtroopers, this kind of duty seems appropriate, particularly given that Stormtroopers themselves lack any loyalties to individual Guard regiments or Navy battlegroups.

Another possibility if you are dead set on the power fist model, is to 'shave' the powerfist down a few notches and turn it into a perhaps overly clunky bionic arm-It's not like Commissars have a shortage of opportunities to lose body parts.

Or it's battle damaged and buggy. a Chance of failure or not activating the power field might balance it a bit.

First off, I can see a comissar and hos goons being quite likely to appear in Inquisitor- being responsible for the spiritual welfare of their men, he is likely to be keen to go off after any rumours of corruption in their warzone. he does this, finds out that the cult (or whatever) that he uncovered is just the tip of the iceburg, and gets sucked in from there. Being high-ranking but also fairly indipendant, he's fairly free to go scooting off like that if he can justify it.
Of course, being a fairly strait-laced imperial type, when he *does* get hold of his enemies, he'll be wading in in full regalia.

In conclusion- I think the figure could work like that, although I would knock up another as him not in his 'battlefield gear'. Try the tank comander with the cap, perhaps. Oh, and it's greasuring to see somebody doing Inq. 28- I'm not the only one!

Quote from: Vladimir on December 31, 2009, 05:04:13 PMOh, and it's greasuring to see somebody doing Inq. 28- I'm not the only one!

Well, while there aren't many Inq28 players on the forums, it's not all that rare (although I get the idea it's more in the US than in the UK - might be wrong, though).

The thing is, once you get into the rather serious players (the type that you find on these forums), the majority will prefer to play at 54mm.
Aside from being more cinematic and models that help give a better idea of individuals than faceless goons, it's the official size - and well, you couldn't turn up at Conclave events and game with 28mm models.

Also, I like it because ~1/30th is less fiddly than ~1/60th, particularly if you're sculpting it.

I do have a few 54 mm figures (actually, I'm doing a 54 mm techpriest atm), but they're generally more for display. But I find it easier to model 28 mm, more bits, you see...

The "more bits" argument is a valid one, but there are literally thousands of bits that you can get your hands on for 54mm models.

And if you can't find a suitable bit, it's often not too difficult to actually make one for yourself. 54mm components are considerably less fiddly to make than 28mm ones.

An INQ28 appreciation thread (or even a 28/54mm thread) ought to really be a separate affair...