Is there any distinction between the language of the Craftworlds and the language of Commoragh?
Well the Craftworld and Dark Eldar have the same origin so presumably they had the same language (in the grand tradition of alien races only having one language), but I'd guess that after 10,000 years or so they've diverged at least slightly in a similar way to American and English.
Quote from: Kaled on February 19, 2010, 07:12:42 AM...but I'd guess that after 10,000 years or so they've diverged at least slightly in a similar way to American and English.
More like the Romance languages, I would propose. While all the romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish, etc) have Latin as their main base, approaching 2000 years has caused them to diverge a long way from each other.
American and British English only started to go different ways two hundred years ago, and while a few words have changed meaning or spelling, the two languages are ~99% the same.
With 10,000 years, and two cultures with the only shared interactions being mutual hatred and killing each other, the languages might just about bear a passing resemblance to each other, but it's equally probable that they've gone too far apart for even that.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on February 19, 2010, 01:39:57 PM
With 10,000 years, and two cultures with the only shared interactions being mutual hatred and killing each other, the languages might just about bear a passing resemblance to each other, but it's equally probable that they've gone too far apart for even that.
Not *entirely* true. As far as I can make out, neither faction is too fond of the other but there certainly aren't outright hostile. The craftworld eldar disagree with the dark eldar's methods, but so long as they don't pose a threat, the craftworlders are content to let them be.
Remember that the dark eldar are not as far from craftworld eldar as a lot of people think. Both sides only care about their own people, treating other races as resources to protect themselves from chaos. Remember, a lot of the kabalite's actions are driven by nessecity- they consume souls because if they don't they will be utterly consumed by Slaanesh. The dark eldar are not just 'evil twins' to the craftworld eldar, just a different path.
It's also worth remembering that there are other factions of eldar as well- the exodites are almost as isolated from the craftworlds as the dark eldar are, and a lot of rangers join exodite comunities with reletively little problem. As well as this, we have the harlequins, one of who's stated aims is to reunite all the different eldar kindreds.
In conclusion, I'd say that (coupled with the rigourous 'root words' system that the eldar language uses), the languages would have had comparitively little difference compared to (say) two different dialects of Low Gothic. Certainly both would be recognisably the same language, although a kabalite would consider a craftworld eldar's speech to be archaic and somewhat strange, and visa versa.
Well, the Eldar language does have a very heavy emphasis on body language (to the extent they're supposedly capable of a conversation with body language alone) - so far more so than human interaction.
Something of a GW Science fail: Most pictures show Eldar eyes without the sclera (the "white" of the eye), which is an important part of human body language - it allows eyes to confer a lot more information than without.
As far as body language, humans with no common language can actually pass a huge amount of information - in the Eldar, the higher importance of body language probably acts as a large compensation for what I imagine would be rather diverged spoken elements.
So, basically, some, but not too much. I'm giving names to equipment, including an Agoniser, and wanted to give it an "Eldar" name (a mix of words from the online Eldar dictionary found here (http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/index.php?action=cms.english_eldar) and Irish and Welsh words), but as its Dark Eldar, I was wondering if that dictionary still applied...
Hmm. It's a bit of an assumption that al craftworlds speak the same language, and that it diverges at the same rate or eldar. I can see them carefully preserving their precious ancient dialect despite the fact that there's no word for chaos :).
As far as using an eldar dictionary to name a dark eldar weapon, this should be reasonable - looking at place names this is the sort of area where old words get preserved even when they're no longer in current use.
In the Dark Heresy scenario 'Shades on Twilight' it describes Dark Eldar script as being more angular than ordinary Eldar writing. As well as that, there are some stories that mention cross-faction trading, so it would make sense that they can understand each other and that there are similarities in dialect.
Quote from: Shard on February 20, 2010, 01:30:39 PMAs well as that, there are some stories that mention cross-faction trading, so [1] it would make sense that they can understand each other and [2]that there are similarities in dialect.
Point number 1 is a given.
Point number 2 is not.
The French can trade with the English, the Germans with the Russians, etc... the fact that two groups can trade does not mean that their primary languages are similar enough to do so.
It means that people within each group have a common language (or at least similar enough language) to those in the other group, but it does not mean that the common language they share is their primary language.
It could be - but it could also not be.
Ok, I have logic fail. What I meant was that they are similar enough in culture, etc that there's not a huge difference in language.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on February 19, 2010, 04:01:04 PMSomething of a GW Science fail: Most pictures show Eldar eyes without the sclera (the "white" of the eye), which is an important part of human body language - it allows eyes to confer a lot more information than without.
Correction: no
visible equivalent to the sclera. Given that, according to Xenology, Eldar eyes aren't built like human ones, it stands to reason that they can perceive things that humans cannot, seeing a different (likely broader) section of the electromagnetic spectrum. Similarly, their eyes may possess distinguishing colouration which cannot be discerned by human eyes. Much as insects can see markings on flowering plants that are imperceptible to the human eye, the Eldar would be able to see details in the eyes of their kin that serve a similar role in regards to body language as the sclera does in humans.
As a happy coincidence, this also makes Eldar body language that much more difficult for humans to interpret...
QuoteAs far as body language, humans with no common language can actually pass a huge amount of information - in the Eldar, the higher importance of body language probably acts as a large compensation for what I imagine would be rather diverged spoken elements.
Well, that and all Eldar being psychic (commonly empathic) to some extent. It really helps get your point across when you can simply project your emotions at someone.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 21, 2010, 01:47:35 AMCorrection: no visible equivalent to the sclera.
The sclera is near white - that is, it reflects almost all wavelengths of light that humans are capable of perceiving, and for good reason. The iris reflects a relative minority of the light humans can see - brown eyes are by far the most dominant eye colour in humans, and in many parts of the world pretty much the exclusive colour. (Other colours are an unusual mutation that only really exists in the European genotype.)
That large contrast across almost the entire visible spectrum is an important part of the sclera. Eldar might have a wider visual range (doubtful though*), but it would strike me as odd that they had a sclera that was indistinguishable from the iris across the entire human visual spectrum.
*I've never seen any mentions of Eldar seeing into the infrared (either near or far infrared), and animals which can see into the ultraviolet have a very short lifespan as a consequence of the genetics involved - which is in direct conflict with the thousands of years Eldar are supposed to live.
... but whichever part of the science is on the iffy side, that's not really the discussion of this topic.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on February 21, 2010, 02:40:35 AM
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 21, 2010, 01:47:35 AMCorrection: no visible equivalent to the sclera.
That large contrast across almost the entire visible spectrum is an important part of the sclera. Eldar might have a wider visual range (doubtful though*), but it would strike me as odd that they had a sclera that was indistinguishable from the iris across the entire human visual spectrum.
Well, we know for a fact that Eldar eyesight is not the same as that of humans - it's variously been attributed with far greater clarity and precision than human eyesight and more effective ability to operate in darkness. Given the description of the Eldar eye in Xenology, it doesn't function like a human eyeball does... Imperial xenobiologists can't actually figure out
how it works at all.
It does strike me as entirely appropriate, however, that the Eldar can see colours that humans can't and distinguish between subtle variations with far greater precision.
Quote*I've never seen any mentions of Eldar seeing into the infrared (either near or far infrared), and animals which can see into the ultraviolet have a very short lifespan as a consequence of the genetics involved - which is in direct conflict with the thousands of years Eldar are supposed to live.
So's their metabolism. Broadly speaking, creatures with faster 'at-rest' heartbeats tend to live proportionately shorter lives than humans... yet the Eldar heart analogue beats twice as fast as a human heart, and their bodies and minds can react and respond twice as fast as those of humans.
Of course, the fact that the Eldar are a genetically-engineered species created by an impossibly sophisticated ancient precursor civilisation should be more than sufficient to explain such discrepancies. The Eldar are what they are. They didn't evolve to be that way, but rather were created fully-formed and their nature has remained unchanged by the passage of millions of years.
A lot of the impossible things in 40k can very easily be seen to be deliberate. More and more - particularly with the work I've been doing for Fantasy Flight Games, fleshing out parts of the yet-unexplored wilderness space of the Koronus Expanse, I'm finding that attempts to render everything down into explainable chunks dilutes the setting - there is, IMO, little room for wonder and mystery in a setting where things can be easily explained.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 21, 2010, 11:22:08 AM...and distinguish between subtle variations with far greater precision.
Yeah, but the whole point is that the iris/sclera divide is as about as unsubtle as it's possible to be.
Quote...their nature has remained unchanged by the passage of millions of years.
Something escaping millions of years free of evolutionary changes is exceptionally unlikely.
The closest thing we know of is the Coelacanth, and while its appearance is much the same, it has changed in size, and has moved from its original environment.
QuoteThere is, IMO, little room for wonder and mystery in a setting where things can be easily explained.
Depends on how you define easily explained. As explainable and conformant to science as our own universe? If so, then I have to argue against your point. Our own universe is teeming with wonder and mystery.
Something can be explainable, yet still be wondrous - something can be known, yet still be incomprehensible.
Light is neither and both a particle and/or a wave, and has no mass, yet has momentum. Electrons have no position. There are 10,000 galaxies, each of billions of stars, within the area of the sky covered by a grain of rice held at arm's length (and that's just those within the visible universe). If there's an alien civilisation on the other side of the universe that has developed maths, their system (other than in numerical base and the system they use for notation) will be
identical to ours - it truly is the universal language. Every living thing on the planet has evolved from single celled organisms. Humankind has the potential to accelerate particles to within walking pace of the speed of light.
We know all of these things, but they're still wondrous and fantastical - so in many ways, the "Truth is stranger than fiction" adage is accurate.
Anyway, as I've already said, this is not the thread for this discussion.
In defence to the body language/Sclera thing - the eldar are incredibly observant - and thus have no need of the iris/sclera divide, which has the evolutionary advantage of making already existent body changes obvious to the relatively unobservant hominids in which it first started to appear. We need it because the movement of a muscle by its smallest distance (hundredths of a millimetre, if that) is invisible to us, but not to the Eldar.
But - as N01H3r3 is... uhmmm... here, and a known Eldar expert, any suggestion on language differences?
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on February 21, 2010, 04:45:23 PMSomething escaping millions of years free of evolutionary changes is exceptionally unlikely.
That's the point.
Quote from: DapperAnarchist on February 21, 2010, 05:06:32 PM
In defence to the body language/Sclera thing - the eldar are incredibly observant - and thus have no need of the iris/sclera divide, which has the evolutionary advantage of making already existent body changes obvious to the relatively unobservant hominids in which it first started to appear. We need it because the movement of a muscle by its smallest distance (hundredths of a millimetre, if that) is invisible to us, but not to the Eldar.
But - as N01H3r3 is... uhmmm... here, and a known Eldar expert, any suggestion on language differences?
As far as I'm aware, the Eldar language has numerous dialects - there is no one Craftworld language, but rather a distinct dialect for each, plus those of Exodite worlds and the cant of the Dark Eldar.
However, if we think of linguistic change, like evolution, as being generational (in this case, each generation's use of language is informed by that of the generation before, but changes to fit an adapting context), then the lifespans of the Eldar mean that relatively few generations have passed since the Fall, which is of course the point at which the cultural distinctions become most obvious.
Each Craftworld was, at the time of their creation, massive trading vessels, moving around the Eldar Empire and beyond such that they only came into contact with the homeworlds (primarily, those located where now the Eye of Terror exists) a few times every millennium. This alone would account for a degree of language difference between the individual Craftworlds and the homeworlds. The Craftworlds had existed since long before the Fall, as demonstrated by the fact that their cultures were largely isolated from the changes taking place within the society of the homeworlds. Their languages would be derived from pre-Fall Eldar.
At some point after the beginning of the societal decline that preceded the Fall, the Exodites became a distinct group, leaving the homeworlds for uninhabited worlds in distant parts of the galaxy. Their language would have thus come from the same common base as early Fall-era Eldar, and would then have developed independently in the millennia since.
The Dark Eldar are survivors of the Fall, Eldar who escaped into the Webway as Slaanesh was born. Consequently, their language would be a derivation of late Fall-era Eldar, which then has developed owing to the peculiarities of Dark Eldar society - including the comparative reluctance to use or develop their own psychic abilities, which would necessitate additional depth within the spoken and body language in order to compensate for a relative lack of psychic emphasis.
Even accounting for the long lifespan of the Eldar, we're still talking about maybe as much as 12-15 millennia - 60-75 generations, assuming they're approximately two centuries apart (200 years being a low estimate). Roughly speaking, comparing the language of the Eldar as it existed pre-Fall to any of the contemporary Eldar languages would be equivalent to comparing any form of modern English to that of the 7th century.
Of course, then there's the matter of relative cultural stability - aside from the Fall, Eldar culture has remained largely the same for millions of years, lacking the kinds of major upheaval that has defined human civilisation. We are, afterall, talking about a species who have managed to maintain a deep and intricate mythology and belief system based on events that took place over sixty-five million years ago, and who once possessed the ability to reincarnate (which, in itself, would slow cultural change).
It's safe to say that the languages are different in all cases. I imagine that a
lingua franca exists to facilitate (non-psychic) communication between Craftworlds, beyond considerations of an unknown proportion of Eldar being multilingual. Given their lack of affiliation to any but Cegorach, I imagine that the Harlequins maintain and use this common Eldar language more often than most, as it is in their interest to be understood by all Eldar.
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 21, 2010, 11:48:43 PMHowever, if we think of linguistic change, like evolution, as being generational...
That seems very doubtful. While the person to consult on the matter would be my mother (she's got the degree in linguistics, not me), there's no particular reason I can see for it to be generational.
Yes, like evolution, language is shaped by the pressures and demands of the environment, but words, being essentially ideas, are not dependent on the survival of their genetic host, nor on successfully creating offspring - they can be passed from person to person (genetic relation or not) near instantly and can spread far faster than any genetic code can.
Human generations are perhaps 20-30 years. Yet, there are words that are commonplace today that we wouldn't even have imagined half a generation ago. The word podcast caught on about 6 years ago, and blogging became mainstream about 10 years ago.
It's pretty clear that linguistics is not tied to a generation, but to a culture - and yes, that probably does make Eldar language even slower evolving, but I'd rather be discussing to the right answer than necessarily the one I first supported.
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on February 22, 2010, 12:15:18 AM
Quote from: N01H3r3 on February 21, 2010, 11:48:43 PMHowever, if we think of linguistic change, like evolution, as being generational...
That seems very doubtful. While the person to consult on the matter would be my mother (she's got the degree in linguistics, not me), there's no particular reason I can see for it to be generational.
Even so, it's a more convenient, abstract (and subjective) time frame for the purposes of discussion than defining things in years, decades, centuries, etc (particularly as, technically, the Eldar wouldn't actually have any use for the year as the Imperium calculates it - that is, based off of the orbital period of Earth - as their 'year' would invariably be defined by the orbital period of an entirely different world).
Applying human biological and social science to the Eldar is simply inappropriate, for reasons which have already been stated.
Given that, I think it's concievable that the Dark Eldar might well have invented a new language just for the sake of being different to thier Craftworld and Exodite kin - from what I remember reading from the Codex thier contempt of thier kin gnaws away at them enough to create such a murderous society to prove that they're stronger than everyone else
Tullio
I'm just going to throw a quick theory/explanation into the ring, you can all take it or leave it. Our language is completely arbitrary, that is to say there is no inherent link between a sign and its signifier (a chair is referred to as a chair because we decide to call it that, there is nothing inherently "chairy" about it).
The Eldar are capable of projecting emotions and much more psychicly active than humans. It is possible that large chunks of their language are not arbitrary. That is to say if their word for hate is derived from the true name of the warp entity who embodies hate then it is not subject to change (or rather, grammar and conjugation may be subject to change but the root would remain relatively solid). Therefore it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that while certain structural elements of the language may change there will be certain (very important) constants that, when combined with the ability to project emotions analogous to what one is saying with speech and body language, would allow eldar of different backgrounds to effectively communicate. This is meant to meld in with N01's insights on eldar society and longevity.
I know that this approach isn't irrefutable but I think it presents a compelling theory. At the end of the day this is science fiction and I have no problem offering a half decent explanation and saying "it works this way because it makes the games fun."
As far as using craftworld language to name a DE weapon, if you use the logic above then you're in the clear.
Quote from: Alyster Wick on February 23, 2010, 03:03:29 PM
I'm just going to throw a quick theory/explanation into the ring, you can all take it or leave it. Our language is completely arbitrary, that is to say there is no inherent link between a sign and its signifier (a chair is referred to as a chair because we decide to call it that, there is nothing inherently "chairy" about it).
The Eldar are capable of projecting emotions and much more psychicly active than humans. It is possible that large chunks of their language are not arbitrary. That is to say if their word for hate is derived from the true name of the warp entity who embodies hate then it is not subject to change (or rather, grammar and conjugation may be subject to change but the root would remain relatively solid). Therefore it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that while certain structural elements of the language may change there will be certain (very important) constants that, when combined with the ability to project emotions analogous to what one is saying with speech and body language, would allow eldar of different backgrounds to effectively communicate. This is meant to meld in with N01's insights on eldar society and longevity.
I know that this approach isn't irrefutable but I think it presents a compelling theory. At the end of the day this is science fiction and I have no problem offering a half decent explanation and saying "it works this way because it makes the games fun."
As far as using craftworld language to name a DE weapon, if you use the logic above then you're in the clear.
Sounds quite plausible to me.