Burst and Full-Auto modes

[Inq NicolePyykkonen]

Alright, so I've been leafing through the downloaded and printed tome (yay for utilizing work printers) which as it's a good inch thick takes a while.  This is my first "question from a newb" so I apologize for something that will inevitably seem obvious.  The essential rules mechanics are incredibly easy (literally simply being roll under your applicable attribute, less modifiers, and if you are less than you succeed) and even simple single shot ranged combat seems easy enough (attribute less range modifier).  I've not delved into close combat yet but I've got a question or two with some of the 'funkier' ranged combat things.

Now, burst fire mode makes sense... somewhat.  Take a person with a 60 BS utilizing a stubber in 2 shot burst mode.  Instead of rolling against (60 - range mod), as it's two shots you are tacking on an extra -20 penalty.. so in this case (60 - 20 - range mod) but you roll twice, with the potential of zero, one, or two hits as opposed to just zero or one.  So one shot at 60ish, versus two shots at 40ish... good odds, and you're more likely to score at least one hit with the burst mode given probability and suchnot.

Where I become confused is taking it to an extreme.  As an example, there was an Andrea Miniatures model I saw (GABRIEL BLACKBURN) with a fellow carrying what I would call an assault cannon.  I thought "Hey, that'd be a swell model to have one day" so I thought I'd try to figure out how that'd work.

Yeah... so unless you had a BS of 80 or 90... assuming you're functioning at at least a -10 range penalty, then as far as I can tell a -60 for burst fire mode.. so BS - 70 per each shot.. so unless you have a BS of 71 or higher you statistically can't hit anything.  This seems a little... odd... so I thought I'd see if I was reading this correctly at all.

I doubt it'll come up.. 'specially since it'd be a long time before I grabbed that model...but I'm really trying to figure out how that ends up so gimped.  I mean, if someone was pointing an assault cannon at me in a narrow hallway, I'd certainly be needing my brown pants as opposed to being able to stand there knowing that statistically they'd never be able to hit me with a burst shot.

Full Auto... honestly that one is still confusing me.. however thankfully that's even less likely to come up that I need to use it.

Thanks for tolerating my ignorance and hopefully being able to help me decipher this into something resembling sense

[Dolnikan]

Bear in mind that there is always the basic 5% to hit chance. Other than that, firing a lot of sots in a single action using semi weapons will indeed significantly reduce your chance to hit. But this is logical because when firing more shots you have less time to point the weapon in the right direction.

[MarcoSkoll]

Yup. There's always that minimum 5% chance.

But if you're going to just randomly spray bullets down the corridor from the hip, I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if you didn't hit anything. Throw in an aim action first, and your chances definitely improve.

[Draco Ferox]

The way I see it, the penalty for shots on semi auto represents recoil, the difficulty of staying on target after you initial shot, and various other factors which a single shot does not have to contend with.

Full auto tules are designed so that shooting more than 4 shots is not basically impossible to hit except with a natural 00-05.
The way I read it, you take your BS, modify it by range, then divide this new number by the number of shots you are firing, before multiplying this number by the number of targets you are firing at. This final number represents the general accuracy of the shots, and you roll to hit with it. Then, all hits are randomly assigned to targets within the group, and damage is inflicted on those hit.
In my opinion, this is mainly to discourage you from firing off a 10-round burst at a single character, which would be devastating if even a few shots landed, though of course, you could still do this and hope to get lucky, whereas firing on full-auto at a group gives you a better chance to hit, but you are less likely to damage a single character extensively (though this can happen).

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

High cyclic rate weapons do suffer badly in the standard rules and we've tended to use them almost exclusively as area denial weapons.

Define an area which the weapon's fire will cover. Such an area should be between two terrain features (ideally ones which provide cover) so that it's easy for everyone to see (as it should be with shells impacting all over the place).
The standard vertical area covered is one floor (in multi level terrain (it's easier to define it that way than as a distance unless you're expecting to deal with folk who can fly in which case...)) but the gunner can choose to cover multiple levels - if so it must be stated as such. The depth of cover is equal to 1/4 of the number of rounds expended in inches either symmetrical about the line between the cover limits or forward from a backstop (if one is present).

For every inch between the extremes apply a 10% penalty to the gunner's BS, for every level covered double the modifier (4 inches over 2 floors = -80%, 4 inches over 3 floors = -160%)
As soon as actions have been determined roll the gunner's to hit, penalties for range are applied as are visibility penalties to the target area...etc. but not for shots fired, aiming...etc. the weapon will be fired at its maximum rate of fire - when suppressing an area in this manner you cannot perform any other action bar shouting, if forced to make any other action (attacked in close combat, pinned...etc) the suppression ends immediately.
If the roll succeeds the gunner has successfully suppressed the area.

Any model moving into or through a suppressed area must immediately roll a pinning test. A failed test returns the character to the point at which they would have entered the covered zone, just outside it (or at the nearest cover if they were inside the covered zone when suppression started) and pinned at that location. If the test is passed then the character will be hit and will immediately take damage equivalent to single round from the appropriate weapon (and may have to test for pinning again).
If not prevented from moving by the hit the character may travel through the fire zone but must get to cover or out of the covered zone as quickly as possible (If someone's filling a doorway with fire you're brave to run past it, idiotic (or an Astarte) to stand in it).

Anyone remaining in the covered zone at the end of the turn who is not in cover will take an additional hit equivalent to one round multiplied by 10% of the number of rounds expended (16 rounds = Standard damage x 1.6).

Standing in front of someone who's unloading with an Assault cannon is not conducive to good health

[Inq NicolePyykkonen]

Okay, so after a little rereading after everyone's comments it begins to make more sense (mostly the comments about the still always having a 5% chance of hitting and beginning to understand the declaration of an Aim action).  Even with a BS of 60 and a range of say 20 yards... with a 5% minimum chance and one Aim action, that's 6 instances of at least a 10% chance to hit, which means on average you'd get about .6 hits with even an inaccurate burst mode doing on average 13 points of damage per hit.. is not good to ones health.  Heaven help you if the fellow has two Aim actions and one of the shooting talents.

That makes me feel significantly better about the whole thing, thank you!  So much to read and really comprehend all at once.

EDIT: sloppy math, sorry!

[MarcoSkoll]

Heaven help you if the fellow has two Aim actions and one of the shooting talents.

The nastiest I've done so far involved three aim actions, Rock Steady Aim, a Semi(3) stub-auto and some freakishly good luck (firstly in rolling that many actions, then actually rolling well for BS tests).

The three aim actions I'd thrown on the end of one turn as a "well, haven't got anything else to do" all passed, and the next turn (the target, by then, proving hostile) two shooting actions resulted in something like five hits - even after losing most of the aim bonus (having fired on Semi) and having to roll less than evens for the second action.

The results weren't pretty, but it's seriously rare to earn a +60% aim bonus and actually get to use it without running out of actions, being shot first or the target moving out of the way, so it's not as scary or upsetting to game balance as it might seem.

[ScottM96]

Heaven help you if the fellow has two Aim actions and one of the shooting talents.

The nastiest I've done so far involved three aim actions, Rock Steady Aim, a Semi(3) stub-auto and some freakishly good luck (firstly in rolling that many actions, then actually rolling well for BS tests).

The three aim actions I'd thrown on the end of one turn as a "well, haven't got anything else to do" all passed, and the next turn (the target, by then, proving hostile) two shooting actions resulted in something like five hits - even after losing most of the aim bonus (having fired on Semi) and having to roll less than evens for the second action.

The results weren't pretty, but it's seriously rare to earn a +60% aim bonus and actually get to use it without running out of actions, being shot first or the target moving out of the way, so it's not as scary or upsetting to game balance as it might seem.

Though doesn't the aim bonus only apply to the first shot of a semi-auto burst? That would make the +60% a lot less deadly. Although I may have accidently made this up in my head... I should probably go and check a rulebook.

Scott

[Kaled]

Any aim bonus is lost after the first semi-automatic shooting action.

[RobSkib]

I know it's semi-derailing, but we've operated with a house rule for semi-auto for many years. Essentially we apply the -10 for each shot, but only as each shot is fired. So a semi 3 shot, the first shot is at -10, the second -20, the third -30 (In the same action, it is reset for progressive actions).

We have a bunch of physics nerds in our group who are very confused by the idea that the last shot in the burst should effect the first shot (there's a technical term for that, but I'm the one doing the art degree, not the physics one ), so that's why we developed the house rule.

Actually that's a fib. We mis-read the rules the first time round way back in '05, liked them and stuck to them. When we found out you were supposed to apply all the modifiers at the same time, we preferred our version, but obviously used the cosher rules at any IGT or 'clave meetup we attended.

Just an idea, if you were still chewing the fat on the current system, there's no reason not to use house rules to change any part of the game you don't like.

[MarcoSkoll]

Though doesn't the aim bonus only apply to the first shot of a semi-auto burst?

First action. Although, in this case, as he has Rock Steady Aim, he kept one level after the first action.

We have a bunch of physics nerds in our group who are very confused by the idea that the last shot in the burst should effect the first shot

Actually, given that you're firing quickly, rather than taking your time over proper marksmanship, there will be an effect on even the first shots.

As for why it's all the same penalty, that's easy. It's an abstraction designed to simplify things. In reality, the first shots will probably be more likely to hit than the last (although, if you're walking your shots to the target, maybe the other way around), but the game just averages out the percentages to all the shots.