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Quelli Santificati

Started by GAZKUL, September 23, 2010, 06:24:33 PM

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Alyster Wick

On the subject of pariahs:

First, this seems to have been somewhat hacked to death, but to throw in my explanation/interpretation I would build upon what has (eloquently) been pointed out about learned prejudice versus instinctual hate.  To explain it in the closest way that we can understand, pariahs are the one being in the universe that every human has a phobia of.  The same way that we react when facing one of our fears would be similar to how a pariah makes everyone feel.  If you're afraid of spiders, you see one and feel instant revulsion and the desire to get away from it or at least to keep it at arms length. 

That is a useful way to understand it. In way of a more full explanation, pariahs have no soul reflection in the warp, it's just a void of emptiness. Depending on the strength of the pariah, it'll range from a hollow nothingness to a raging black hole of negative emotions that drains all soul-energy around it.  This is why you feel the phobia of them.  Being near a high level pariah is apt to make you feel closer the icey fingers of death on you because your soul/life energy is very literally being sucked away.  That is what is happening in the warp and so those feelings are reflected on the physical being that is affected.  Imagine what you would feel like if you walked into a room, felt as if you were slowly dying and you could pinpoint exactly who it was that was giving you that feeling, only you couldn't explain why or how they were making you feel that way. 

That's why people hate pariahs.  Forgive the lengthy explanation, but though most of the points I made have been voiced already it seemed as though they hadn't yet been compiled, hopefully that was useful to someone somewhere  ;D

Secondly though, given this explanation there is a more relevant question to be asked about the elevation of pariahs to Inquisitorial status: would an individual/group of individuals who were educated enough on pariahism be able to objectively look at a pariah and evaluate them on their merits without having their opinion tainted by the pariah-effect? 

I have a two part answer.  Yes, educated inquisitors would be able to set aside their inherent revulsion and elevate someone based on merit aside from the pariah-effect.  The follow up to this though is would it be realistic for anyone to do so?  Pariahs may make useful killing machines.  They may even be able to learn/be taught social graces from individuals who are able to objectively see the worth of their ability and set aside their inherent discomfort.  However, the key thing to remember here is that it is a rare, extremely well educated and extremely strong willed individual who will be able to do these things.  Does it make sense to elevate someone to the status of Inquisitor if they will be universally hated to the degree that they are trusted by no one and hated by all?  Almost never, and certainly not to the level of Lord Inquisitor (again, more of a political appointment than anything).

In closing, let me offer up an example of a rare exception.  A group of enlightened Inquisitors elevate a very skilled pariah to the level of Inquisitor.  Though his pariah-effect is strong, this individual has learned (through careful control) to modify his warp reflection to project intense fear upon all those around them. As a result they feel hatred but this hatred is far overshadowed by fear for their immortal souls.  With a combination of his skill and rhetoric, this individual is able to make those around him feel as though the wrath of the emperor himself will be set upon them and their souls will be forfeit if they cross him.  Because of this, the group of enlightened Inquisitors elevate the pariah to use him to surgically create fear when it is convenient for their means while his position as an independent Inquisitor insulates them from the fallback of dealing with him/the distrust that associating with such a disturbing individual would bring. However, over the centuries this crafty pariah is able to gather enough evidence and enough of a power base to individually blackmail and intimidate these very same Inquisitors into elevating him to Lord status. 

A far fetched tale to be sure, and what's more, by taking the actions he did in order to reach Lord status this Pariah has confirmed what all the Inquisitors knew in their guts all along, that he was an untrustworthy and thoroughly evil abomination.  He'll certainly have plenty of targets on his head...

MarcoSkoll

While most of that post is very eloquent...

Quote from: Alyster Wick on January 04, 2011, 04:00:48 AMThough his pariah-effect is strong, this individual has learned (through careful control) to modify his warp reflection to project intense fear upon all those around them.
... I've always been a bit suspicious of this idea. It comes up every now and again (and I usually run with it), but I've not yet heard a particularly convincing explanation for how a Pariah would control a lack of soul.

How can you change nothing into something else - and how would an individual who the warp can't affect somehow manage to affect the warp?
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Alta


I was just thinking. You say that Pariahs are instantly repulsive to any humans, right.
Well, do humans feel the same about the Tau?
...Few things in life make sense and unfortunately for you I am not one of them...

Kaled

Tau are only mildly blunt - the feeling of repulsion that generates is probably masked by the fact that they're foul xenos. Most humans would hate them far more for being alien than for any negative effect of their soul.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Alyster Wick

Quote... I've always been a bit suspicious of this idea. It comes up every now and again (and I usually run with it), but I've not yet heard a particularly convincing explanation for how a Pariah would control a lack of soul.

How can you change nothing into something else - and how would an individual who the warp can't affect somehow manage to affect the warp?

Yeah, I'm definitely taking liberties with that part.  The way I understood it is that more extreme pariahs actually "do damage" to the warp.  When a psycher attempts to use an ability directly on/in proximity to a pariah it is more difficult/dangerous; I always interpreted this as the pariah siphoning off warp energy into the empty void of their soul.  In that manner I view them as kind of a doorway, but whereas the soul of a psycher leads to the physical universe (allowing warp energies to have an effect their) the pariah's "door" takes warp energy and puts it nowhere (essentially destroying it for our purposes).  From that point of view I think it would be possible for a pariah to effect how their "doorway" functions (in a rudimentary way if not a precise way).

You are quite right though Marco, I have no real canonical backing for that. While I think my views are supported by my interpretation I should have put a disclaimer since it's certainly something that's up for debate. 

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: Alta on January 04, 2011, 09:29:48 AMWell, do humans feel the same about the Tau?
Tau aren't Pariahs. They're faint in the warp, rather than a sucking void.

As such, I see it as they don't "feel" like a being to humans, and feel more like an animal/object because of their less vivid soul.
The dislike of them is not because of their bluntness - it's indoctrinated.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Kaled

In the HH short story about the Sisters of Silence, The Voice, there are a couple of passages that might be relevant to this whole discussion.  The first talks about how the 'great gift of Silence' manifests in different ways is some untouchables.  It doesn't really go into details, but says that 'for the Oblivion Knight it was an unseen sphere that extended beyond her flesh, dampening the power of any psyker with increasing severity the closer they came.'.  Separately it talks about the power being stronger for some sisters, so it's clear that the gift manifesting differently is not merely a difference in power.

Later, in an attempt to contain an extremely powerful psychic entity the sisters 'find and take a space where they could kneel and recite the creed, a place where they could draw within and bring forth the gift of silence from themselves.'  This suggests to me that meditation can help an untouchable somehow 'focus' their power - whatever that means.

Later still a sister says 'We are Untouchable, ... They say we have no souls.' to which it is replied 'We have. .. Else I would have nothing to burn, no coin to pay my way here.'  Which suggests pariahs don't have a lack of a  soul, but perhaps some sort of anti-soul - which might explain the control question.

These references are all too vague to draw any solid conclusions, but interesting nonetheless.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

DapperAnarchist

As a counter - chanting of creeds and so on is often depicted as being able to counter psychic or daemonic activity such as Word of the Emperor, and its not a good idea to tell one of your elite military units they have no souls. It may be accurate, but not a good idea.
Questions are a burden to others, answers a burden to oneself.

The Keltani Subsector  My P&M Thread - Most recent, INQ28!

Kaled

Regarding them being told they have no soul, I didn't provide much context as it would involve spoilers but she's saying she literally sold her soul, which would be impossible if she didn't have one.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

GAZKUL

Decided to turn Drakenberg into two seperate people, one retains everything exept the Omega Minus part  while the other becomes Inquisitor Kain's Acolyte as an Omega minus. also here is a civilian attendant for Drakenberg. Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated.

Saft Biene

A servant from amongst the local citizenry of Bellis Corona Saft got his job as attendant to Drakenberg through his father who was keen to ingratiate himself with the Inquisition, he spends his time helping the Inquisitor to search through the library of the Istvaan Institute and accompanied him on diplomatic errands to help with any paperwork.

WS             BS                S             T              I           SG             WP         NV       LD
35            40                 54            46            32         68              21           24        35

Wargear: Robe, Necromunda Pattern Laspistol (civilian mod- civ mag, short barrel, triplex discharge generator, all other components standard.)


Acolyte Antonio Varga

Since birth Antonio had been feared and hated by his family and classmates in their small farming community on the backwater agri world of Triur, friendless for all of his younger years, he was abandoned by his parents and sister before his sixth birthday. Wherever he went he was avoided and even physically hurt for no obvious reason, it was only after the local priest declared him a soulless demon of the warp that he was given a psychic profiling by local authorities, the result of which revealed him to be a Pariah. The solution of this issue was usually death but he was spared on account of his age and was imprisoned, however rumours of his power spread to off world before finally coming to the ears of an Inquisitor of the Ordo Heriticus, a man named Kain who was himself a pariah but due to a controversial decision by Lord Inquisitor Drakenberg had risen to his current rank. By the time Kain arrived on Triur the young Varga was in his early teens and his date of execution was nearing, Kain requested an audience with the captive band it is unsure of what was said between the two but when Kain left Varga accompanied him.  Like Rammerstein before him Kain made the choice to take a pariah as his acolyte, something which only the influence of Drakenberg can keep away from the ears of the higher ups who share the universal belief that blanks shouldn't become ranked members of the Inquisition. Varga's training has been brutal and direct, Kain has taken him through the gates of hell and beyond to make him the perfect witch hunter and to try and overcome the barriers faced by pariahs. Kain knows that someday Antonio will become a stronger Inquisitor than he will ever be and he hopes that someday he'll become respected enough to overcome his setback.

Antonio is still a young man and has an energy that older Inquisitors lack, he has a passion for his job and faces each obstacle Kain creates for him eagerly. However his past has left him slightly detached from normal imperial life which leads to a cold and emotionless nature. In battle he uses a variety of weapons and is currently undergoing training with the Quelli Santificati and is growing in experience.

WS             BS            S               T               I            NV           WP           SG          LD
42             52           52              56            73            65             64            71           68

Wargear: Flack armour on abdomen, groin, arms legs and chest, open helmet, Savlar Pattern Rebreather, short sword, Bolt action Rifle.

Special Abilities: Untrustworthy, Omega Minus.

Omega Minus: follows normal rules for Pariahs, however  the range for his area of blankness is 15 and the penalty is 60%, in addition demons are on -60 to detect him, Psykers must make a wp test if within 5 of him, if test is failed their wp is reduced by the amount the test was failed by.
"You do not need to prove that you exist because soon you won't"

Kaled

#55
From reading that it still feels like you're suggesting there's some prejudice against pariahs, which is just not the case - the phobia analogy is a better one. Taking a pariah as an acolyte isn't really a controversial decision - but the chances of a pariah (who number less than one in a billion, so an omega-minus is going to be many orders of magnitude rarer) also possessing the skills and temperament to be a suitable Inquisitor, and gaining the support of his peers in order to be promoted is extremely unlikely to the point it's practically impossible.

How did his training help him overcome the problems presented by him being a pariah?

Also, I'd suggest that the Culexus Temple has eyes and ears everywhere looking out for such rare individuals. It seems more likely they would have spirited him away long before your Inquisitor found him.

EDIT: Is it necessary for him to be an omega-minus? You could get around some of the objections by making him a more moderate rating then having him wear a dampener to further limit the negative effects of his pariah nature. Omega-minus is just so extremely powerful, and it's just creating unnecessary problems for you.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

GAZKUL

i kinda see him as just beginning his training so no idea how to overcome problems.  on the Omega Minusness i just like the idea. 
"You do not need to prove that you exist because soon you won't"

Kaled

But if you made him a slightly more moderate power it'd be much easier to come up with reasonable background for him. Having an omega-minus pariah as a PC is along the same lines as having an alpha-plus psyker as a PC - there are just so many objections to overcome.  And 'just because' doesn't really seem a worthwhile enough reason to put yourself through all that hassle..
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: GAZKUL on January 05, 2011, 07:14:43 PMsomething which only the influence of Drakenberg can keep away from the ears of the higher ups who share the universal belief that blanks shouldn't become ranked members of the Inquisition.
You still seem to have the idea that it's a prejudice.

To put it into the simplest terms: Hate of Pariahs is objective, not subjective. It is fact, not opinion. People can't like Pariahs, not don't.
The only exceptions to this are those who are insensitive to the warp themselves (who are rare anyway, and for the same reason of objective hatred, are unlikely to be in a position of power to support their peers).

It can be hard to get your head around because I'm not sure there is an equivalent in real life. Normally, hatreds are subjective, but this one is not.

So, there is no "universal belief that Pariahs should not be Inquisitors". Ask most Inquisitors if they think immunity to psychic powers (and thus psychic interrogation) would be good for an Inquisitor, and they will probably say yes. However, they find those people who are immune to psychic powers unpleasant (at best), and thus few Inquisitors can like them enough to even consider making them their Inquisitorial peer.

This is even worse with Omega Minuses.

Bear in mind that Omega Minuses are inconceivably rare not only because of the one in a trillion (or rarer) genetics, but because most of their mothers probably strangle them at birth (if they haven't committed suicide during the pregnancy because of how their unborn child is sending them into black despair), or they get murdered in their youth for being the hateful spawn of Chaos (ironic as that is). That any exist at all is nearly inconceivable. There are whole orders of magnitude more Alpha Plus psykers than there will ever be Omega Minus pariahs.

Like Kaled said, the Omega Minus rating has a whole world of problems attached to it.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

GAZKUL

Due to laziness it's simply be changed to an unusually strong regular Omega.  yes i know it's a cheat way of getting round problems but hey.
"You do not need to prove that you exist because soon you won't"