Author Topic: =I= weight vs weight IRL  (Read 5651 times)

Offline Lazarus Caladine

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=I= weight vs weight IRL
« on: December 04, 2010, 02:24:39 PM »
Hey guys, long time no see. So long in fact that my account was deleted...oh well.
Jumping back in, with a very important question. What does a unit of weight in =I= translate into in terms of real life weight?
Only asking because I have reviewed all of my old character sheets (sheets are complete, fluff needs finishing and models actually need to be built), and they are almost all overencumbered because of the rediculous weight of their armour. Weight 5 for every point of armour? Full carapace and a closed helm weighs 240, meaning a character must be strength 190 and equipped with absolutely nothing else to be able to carry it without penalty. This seems particularly odd to me, since in ye olde times full iron/steel suits of armour of 15kg plus which could be comparable in effectiveness in game to flak (approx). Surely after so many millenia, even with the Dark Age of Technology, armour wouldn't weigh more than it did all those years ago...would it?
Thanks
Laz
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Offline RobSkib

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2010, 04:07:58 PM »
Welcome back! Weight in Inquisitor is a funny old thing and is in need of a drastic overhaul in my opinion. I can't think where I'd even begin myself, so I just soldier on with the current rules and bodge it along the way.

There are rules for Encumbrance in Inquisitor as it was in one of the annuals and I've added a bit of my own bodge rules, where a character's limit was double their Strength then add 50. If a character exceeds that amount, they can no longer sprint, and for every full 25 points over their Encumbrance, they act at -1 speed. This functions nicely in our games, as people tend to over-stack their characters with armour.

There are lots of things in INQ with strange weight values and quite a few with none, so I view Encumbrance as a quantitive measure of how easy it is to carry an item about your person, the tools and resources required to keep that item functioning as well as the actual weight of the item. Things with no values at all, like medkits and auspexes are all 5, whereas combat weapons have their maximum damage as their weight value i.e 6 for a knife, 30 for a power sword.

These are the rules I use for my games, hopefully you can adapt or borrow some of these rules to help your games run more smoothly :)
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Offline Myriad

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2010, 07:21:43 PM »
I remember trying to work out the encumberance while doing character sheets once, and realising partway through that to wear carapace armour you'd need a strength of 80-90 or something.  At which point I quietly quit using those rules.  I think most of the conclave are similar.
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Offline Morcus

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2010, 07:48:46 PM »
I've never really bothered with them but I've never played a campagne where they were needed as everyone involved was sensible.

In the real world you can wear Armour heavier than any item you could comfortably carry without much problem as the weight is spread across the body (compare what it feels like to put on a few kilograms of coats to holding the equivelent in sugar).

Offline Lazarus Caladine

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 08:43:02 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts guys, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it needs altering.

a character's limit was double their Strength then add 50. If a character exceeds that amount, they can no longer sprint, and for every full 25 points over their Encumbrance, they act at -1 speed. This functions nicely in our games, as people tend to over-stack their characters with armour.

An interesting idea, certainly makes actually playing more viable. Trouble is, I don't like watching fully fluffed characters dropping out like flies because of terriblly low armour values (no, my Tyrus conversion WIP sitting on my table isn't influencing me at all, not that it would affect him in the slightest).

In the real world you can wear Armour heavier than any item you could comfortably carry without much problem as the weight is spread across the body (compare what it feels like to put on a few kilograms of coats to holding the equivelent in sugar).

I was thinking of a 1 armour point:1 weight point deal, since everything else would fit quite well into the encumbrance rules as is.
Or I could simply ignore it all and go full on movie maniacs absorbing bullets left right and center loaded with all manner of epic death weapons for the cool.
Laz
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2010, 06:08:04 AM »
Quote
Hey guys, long time no see. So long in fact that my account was deleted...oh well.
That would probably be because of the crash over Summer 2009 - everything was lost, except what people had saved offline or could scavenge from the Google cache.

~~~~~

My thoughts are that armour should be weighty (I think one Wt per armour point is far too little to force players to make any choices), but not as much as it is now.
As such, if using Encumbrance (rather than just a "Eh, all that's going to stop you sprinting"), this is my version:

- Weight per point of armour is normally ((Strength + Toughness) / 50). Why this? Well, bigger people are going to need bigger armour, and a sliding cost stops you completely pricing out weaker characters on reasonable armour. Don't round the weight value off until after multiplying it up for the total.
- Reloads are normally one fifth of the weapon's weight.
- Close combat weapons weigh their maximum damage, not including things like force weapon bonuses (seeing what RobSkib said, this is clearly a fairly popular way to work out the weight).
- Most assorted odds and ends, unless obviously more or less, are 5 Wt.
- The weight of bionics (and any "natural armour" on them) is ignored, but they offer no S bonus for Encumbrance.

Basic encumbrance is twice strength. Go over that, and I'll take a yard off your sprinting speed for every 20 points or part of 20 points.
Heavy encumbrance is three times strength. Every point over that is applied as an Initiative penalty (although not normally to awareness tests) as it slows you, your reactions and generally gets in the way. You also lose half that (rounding up) in WS.


This means you can have a Stormtrooper style loadout (full carapace armour and moderate armament) with "only" a heavy sprinting penalty and perhaps a point or two off WS & I, provided the character is reasonably strong.

Or you can equip without any penalties provided you're a little choosy about what you go with. But if you decide to take full body carapace (particularly if you add a helmet), it is going to take almost all of your basic encumbrance.

Quote
Trouble is, I don't like watching fully fluffed characters dropping out like flies because of terriblly low armour values
Ah, there's a simple answer to that.

Firstly, don't give every character a really big gun. If every character is equipped with bolters and power swords, then of course lifespans are going to be short.
If an Inquisitor is going to conduct an investigation, they'll just give themselves away (as some form of Imperial servant, at least) by carrying such weapons. And if they have to pull out their seal to get hold of the last magazine of bolt rounds the arms dealer has... well, there goes their cover.

Secondly, "dead" doesn't have to mean dead.
I've seen characters suffer things that should have reduced them to meaty chunks, but as I see it, when you made the character, it's also up to you to decide if you're ready to stop using them. Perhaps they've got really good health insurance - or maybe they're just so tough and stubborn that it would take a dedicated orbital strike to get rid of them for good.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 06:13:25 AM by MarcoSkoll »
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Offline Lazarus Caladine

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2010, 12:24:20 PM »
That would probably be because of the crash over Summer 2009 - everything was lost, except what people had saved offline or could scavenge from the Google cache.

Ouch, that sucks rather a lot. Good to have everything running again though.

- Weight per point of armour is normally ((Strength + Toughness) / 50). Why this? Well, bigger people are going to need bigger armour, and a sliding cost stops you completely pricing out weaker characters on reasonable armour. Don't round the weight value off until after multiplying it up for the total.
- Reloads are normally one fifth of the weapon's weight.
- Close combat weapons weigh their maximum damage, not including things like force weapon bonuses (seeing what RobSkib said, this is clearly a fairly popular way to work out the weight).
- Most assorted odds and ends, unless obviously more or less, are 5 Wt.
- The weight of bionics (and any "natural armour" on them) is ignored, but they offer no S bonus for Encumbrance.

Basic encumbrance is twice strength. Go over that, and I'll take a yard off your sprinting speed for every 20 points or part of 20 points.
Heavy encumbrance is three times strength. Every point over that is applied as an Initiative penalty (although not normally to awareness tests) as it slows you, your reactions and generally gets in the way. You also lose half that (rounding up) in WS.

Very interesting, and in depth as always. Minor problem though, I have three characters written to have two bionic arms. Should I work out what their S would be as if they had regualr arms?
And what about Charax's old cc weapons page? Has that disappeared too? Or is it just being ignored for the sake of max damage=weight in general?

Quote
Trouble is, I don't like watching fully fluffed characters dropping out like flies because of terriblly low armour values
Ah, there's a simple answer to that.

Firstly, don't give every character a really big gun. If every character is equipped with bolters and power swords, then of course lifespans are going to be short.
If an Inquisitor is going to conduct an investigation, they'll just give themselves away (as some form of Imperial servant, at least) by carrying such weapons. And if they have to pull out their seal to get hold of the last magazine of bolt rounds the arms dealer has... well, there goes their cover.

Fair point, I guess I should have thought of that before sticking everything of shinyness to everyone. Melee with any of these guys will be horrific, but on the flipside most of them only have a 'main' weapon (shotgun, lasgun etc.) and a sidearm (stubber, revolver etc.). The only seriously over-gunned guy out of 13 (3 warbands and 3 NPCs) is a gun servitor armed with a multilaser...but having his brain hacked by someone who couldn't quite work out what they were doing hasn't helped his aim...

Thanks again
Laz
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2010, 01:02:20 PM »
Minor problem though, I have three characters written to have two bionic arms. Should I work out what their S would be as if they had regular arms?
I'd say you should do that anyway. There are times when it is clearly inappropriate to include bionic arms in a strength value.
Jump distances being the obvious example - in fact, in that case, the extra weight of the arm is probably a caveat, not a bonus!

My characters with bionic arms usually have Strength values like: B:70; S:60/35; T:95, where the first is basic strength, the second the split values of each arm, and the last the total value. Takes a bit more space on the character sheet, but a lot less complex than it may sound.

Quote
And what about Charax's old cc weapons page? Is it just being ignored for the sake of max damage=weight in general?
If a weapon should have a defined weight, then use it. (Although I'd say that Charax's rules can be a bit overgenerous on the weight of some weapons). This is only for covering weapons without an assigned value for weight.
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Offline GAZKUL

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »
i've only just read the encumberance rules and it's the first time i've ever been greatfull for having characters who are practically unarmoured.

out of curiosity dous anyone know how heavy an old fashioned gas mask would be?
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Offline Morcus

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2010, 09:35:51 PM »
I had a russian 90's model (Rubber with seperate Glass eyes and Filter screwed on to mask directly) and that weighed about a Kilo I reckon (All the weight in the filter).

Offline Necris

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 11:41:53 AM »
I regualrly wear full plate armour (re-enactor) now I weigh in at just shy of 18 stone without armour and clock in at close to 25/26 stone in full plate, add weapons to that and I'm reaching 27/28 stone

I can wear my armour all day in any condition (I may need to drink more on hot days)

I can fight for hours (Longest time is 9 hours none stop combat at an endurance camp)

so in total my armour an weapons alone weigh just over half my body weight, thats not including the chain which can add another 4 stone alone (chain is bloody heavy) and I am free to move roll jump kick fight and claw as if I wasn't wearing it (Id be even better if I was actually fit)

So me being an unfit lout has little negative effects with wearing so much.

Modern day stuff from what I am told is more breathable though I imagine from experiance that the most commen cause of people falling down from wearing armour of any sort is dehydration and over heating over the weight.

I generally ignore weights of things save for the obviously heavy weapons (Las cannons and heavy bolters for example) when generating characters and use the common sense rule (Ie does it look like your guy can pick it up? ok give it a go and lets see shall we?)

also in games of inquisitor the rule of cool can also sway things a little for example how cool would it be if X hurls that really heavy barrel at Y and knocks him on his ass thus by foiling his attempt to kill X
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Offline Flinty

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 12:43:11 PM »
I think Necris makes a very good point here. Modern soldiers supposedly travel with 60+ kilo packs as standard, (Im sure someone can confirm this, PO?) dropping these when moving into combat and keeping just the webbing with essentials (presumably ammo and med kit etc).

I view encumberance rules as something that the GM can apply to stop player abuse - 'He'll drop the heavy stubber and whip out his assault cannon before chucking a handfull of grenades and then charge in with the power maul and chain sword'' sort of thing. Otherwise, if it sounds like they have sensible approach, the rule of cool goes.

Possibly more interesting is to force players to make choices during a scenario - You need to recover the artefact which turns out to be x by y and weigh far more than it looks - what are you going to do? Do they ditch all thier kit apart from a pistol, turn someone into a pack mule and who can only just about stagger along? I may ask players to list thier combat essentials and what they would be willing to drop. Of course, when they return, it might not still be there - Underhives have a very efficent recycling system in place...
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Offline Kaled

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 01:28:50 PM »
I can fight for hours (Longest time is 9 hours none stop combat at an endurance camp)
What about sprinting?  Or jumping?  Or swimming?  Or some other the other things that characters occasionally do?  What about falling?  Are there things that you find more difficult in armour and/or loaded down with equipment?

Generally I ignore encumberance as long as the model looks capable of carrying all his stuff but would apply it if someone turns up with a model loaded down with tons of stuff.  In those cases I'm certainly not keen on adding up the weights of everything on a character sheet though just because it takes time that I'd rather spend in actually playing, so some general rules of thumb would be useful...
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Offline Lazarus Caladine

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2010, 01:42:52 PM »
Necris does sort of prove my point about old style gear, but a more accurate representation could be taken from some of the guys who I see when I go airsofting (think paintball without the paint). While they don't have the 60kg pack to carry around, a lot of them carry fullsize and approx. correctly weighted metal imitation replica weapons, fairly closely weighted 'body armour', big heavy grenades and loads of other gear for about 6 hours at a time without any real difficulty. Slapping ballistic plates all over them probably wouldn't make masses of difference.

Generally I ignore encumberance as long as the model looks capable of carrying all his stuff but would apply it if someone turns up with a model loaded down with tons of stuff.

That might be a plan, but I am a bit of a power player so my interpretation of that could be wildy different to someone else's
Going over all of my old sheets I had to rip the majority of most model's armour off of them, from a statistical point of view, to comply with Marko's suggestions just to carry a rifle, sidearm and cc weapon. And I had a techie planned with a gauss flayer and another primary weapon butt had to lose the flayer so he could move, even without 75%+ of armour I wanted on him :(.
Laz
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Offline Kaled

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Re: =I= weight vs weight IRL
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 03:41:11 PM »
Did you have models for those characters? Often the amount of stuff you can actually fit on the model nicely limits things - more than once I've seen people write character sheets that have tons of stuff on them, but when they came to make the model half of it had to be left off...
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