Author Topic: Citadel Finecast  (Read 22617 times)

Offline greenstuff_gav

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2011, 11:06:17 AM »
Re: precinctomega..

Really? I'd have thought resin would work well with its cleaner detail and found it quite cheap to outsource and easy to do stuf inhouse..
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2011, 12:48:05 PM »
With everything I read about how much they have to do to convert the moulds to use resin, it does seem like they're likely to just not bother with bringing Specialist Games on to their wonderful new technology (this new tech that people have already been using for years).

Perhaps they'll keep doing them in metal (Now at a higher price, because we're still making these old models just for you, the customer) or drop the ranges entirely, I don't know.

I wonder if we may have passed that boundary with this latest price hike.
But it's not just about affordable. I can afford to play GW prices, I am however no longer prepared to. When I can keep myself entertained longer for less, why do I need to?

Okay, my skill set is unusual. Not everyone can, or indeed enjoys, making teeny weeny models from scratch.
But GW are starting to put themselves into a very, very dangerous market with each price rise.

Two regular boxes of Space Marines, the core of a Space Marine force: 46, and about to go up.
One copy of most modern video games at release: 40-50, even at high street prices. Drops to below 20-30 if you look online and you're prepared to wait a few weeks.

They need to offer better fun/cost ratios than other entertainments, and given the ease of buying Call of Honour 7.4: Portal Theft Evolved and wasting endless hours on online play (also a much less niche pastime which is less likely to get your lunch money stolen), they're not going to be doing that.

I keep wondering where the people at GW's head office got their qualifications that they learnt that the solution to falling sales was to make your product even more expensive.
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Offline Ulgavitch

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2011, 04:17:56 PM »
Quote
But it's not just about affordable. I can afford to play GW prices, I am however no longer prepared to. When I can keep myself entertained longer for less, why do I need to?

I was using 'affordable' in the marketing and pricing sense of the world: a product which the majority of the core purchasers can no longer make significant purchases of. I think we're a little old (I definitely am)
to be regarded as the core audience, and we've probably got more disposable income. Therefore for us, and we're probably a subsidary or niche market, it remains a larger ticket item - expensive but still available.

Though I'm not sure what their market research people are telling them, I would wonder about the disposable income of the average teenage boy. Especially considering the macro-economic conditions.

Quote
They need to offer better fun/cost ratios than other entertainments, and given the ease of buying Call of Honour 7.4: Portal Theft Evolved and wasting endless hours on online play (also a much less niche pastime which is less likely to get your lunch money stolen), they're not going to be doing that.

I keep wondering where the people at GW's head office got their qualifications that they learnt that the solution to falling sales was to make your product even more expensive.

Absolute nail on the head. The behaviour of GW in terms of a retail organisation is so bizarre you could write an essay on it.  This is an organisation that has never had a sale, does not do any marketing outside of WD and responds to both an increasingly competitive marketplace and poor economic conditions by raising it's price by 20%. That is so utterly perverse in terms of retailing behaviour that it makes my head spin.

Previously, it used to be that GW could abuse it's position of market dominance (especially in the late 90's, early 00's) but now even that is slipping away. I'm hearing talk of a twenty percent market slip in the last year. Who responds to that kind of kicking with a price rise? A sale, an add campaign, reach out operations - something else. Not price rises. It's bad business sense. 

If the resin is cheaper - then pass the savings on to the customer! But I guess they need  their 70%
margins, to maintain the balance on a smaller audience. It seems like they've forgotten they are running a retail business... it genuinely does. 
 

Offline Inquisitor Octavian Lars

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2011, 04:24:42 PM »
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Offline Ferran

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2011, 04:43:32 PM »
They used to do sales all the time. These were mostly "store opening" sales where it was 3 for 2 on blisters, but the store where I am has been established for as long as I can remember, at least 20 years, and they had slaes there too, so they weren't all store openings. They weren't all 3 for 2's either, they'd do bargain bin type events. Of course this was all back when the hobby made some sense.

Offline greenstuff_gav

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 06:17:24 PM »
With everything I read about how much they have to do to convert the moulds to use resin,

with the existing spin moulds no converting is required; more getting the right resin and techniques (much harder'n it sounds)
on the flipside, making new moulds isn't that difficult; about 48 hours with setting time... of course you can do a batch at once (like 10 moulds, each of 5 figures)  ;)
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Offline DapperAnarchist

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2011, 06:22:46 PM »
... How tough can resin be? Cos its depressing enough if a metal model falls, comes apart, and paint chips off. Imagine it shattering...
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Offline viper_eX

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2011, 06:39:15 PM »
... How tough can resin be? Cos its depressing enough if a metal model falls, comes apart, and paint chips off. Imagine it shattering...

it's harder than metal but not as much as glass, so it doesn't shatter too fast (depending on what mixture they will actually use and how high you had the model when it falls)
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2011, 08:50:37 PM »
I think we're a little old (I definitely am) to be regarded as the core audience, and we've probably got more disposable income.
I think most people on here are. They market mostly to early teens.

As far as the disposable income of the average teenager, I think they're anticipating Mum/Dad buying models at the request of little Johnny, and being happy to be able to bundle him into the GW store to play a game or two whenever they're out shopping to avoid him whining about having to be in Marks and Spencers.
But trying to support your business on that seems crazy to me.

Quote
This is an organisation that has never had a sale, does not do any marketing outside of WD and responds to both an increasingly competitive marketplace and poor economic conditions by raising it's price by 20%. That is so utterly perverse in terms of retailing behaviour that it makes my head spin.
As Ferran says, they have had sales, but I don't remember one locally within my gaming hobby (Approaching 12 years now). I remember Skullz, which you had to accumulate silly numbers of to get anything back, but again, ages ago.

So for practical effects on their current business model, they don't hold sales.

Which seems like it could be daft. It would be a way of testing the waters to see how things would be at lower prices... and if someone decides to use a sale as an excuse to start a new army, then they're probably going to want to make it bigger at some point in the future. Ergo, profit.

Also, as far as advertising, I believe they've removed WD from WHSmith. Which is incredibly stupid as far as keeping their profile.

Quote
If the resin is cheaper - then pass the savings on to the customer! But I guess they need  their 70%
margins, to maintain the balance on a smaller audience. It seems like they've forgotten they are running a retail business... it genuinely does. 
I don't know what GW is saying right now, but they tend to flip flop between claiming to be a Retail business, a Manufacturing business or a Hobby business depending on how things are going and how grumpy the shareholders are.

As far as their margins, they're basically huge, which is what irritates me even more about the claims of rising materials costs.
There's 20 pence worth of plastic in an average regiment/squad box. More than it was ten years ago, but they could have easily absorbed that rise into the margins. Given that most of their costs are essentially unchanged - labour won't have massively changed, making the steel moulds is basically the same cost, etc, prices shouldn't have rocketed. Materials costs are tiny and shouldn't even show up on the surface.

with the existing spin moulds no converting is required; more getting the right resin and techniques (much harder'n it sounds)
The stories on Warseer start from they need to modify them with at bigger gates and vents and go up to some people I think know what they're talking about discussing the possibility that they're actually injection moulded resin. Which could be nonsense, but I don't know the subject all that well.

... How tough can resin be? Cos its depressing enough if a metal model falls, comes apart, and paint chips off. Imagine it shattering...
It's not that vulnerable. It's a long way from being as strong as metal and is brittle rather than malleable, but because it's also incredibly light, so it hasn't really got the weight to damage itself.
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Offline Ulgavitch

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2011, 09:31:40 PM »
Marco:

Quote
As far as their margins, they're basically huge, which is what irritates me even more about the claims of rising materials costs. There's 20 pence worth of plastic in an average regiment/squad box. More than it was ten years ago, but they could have easily absorbed that rise into the margins.

Absolutely - what's worse is that if you read their shareholders report, it's quite clear that they are proud of this fact. Despite (or in spite of...) the damage it is doing to their underlying market. I don't know why they can't mass manufacture for that price - do they need a map of retail stores everywhere you go?

Or it's total incompetence within their management ... always a possibility.   

It make me mad, and sad. I used to enjoy the hobby, spent many happy hours in GW or doing GW stuff ... and now, due to an excessive desire for profitability, they've wrecked it.

But back to the Resins - I'm getting the impression that I shouldn't bother buying stuff from FW then? I had my eye on a couple of models to use for Inq.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 02:07:24 AM »
It make me mad, and sad. I used to enjoy the hobby, spent many happy hours in GW or doing GW stuff ... and now, due to an excessive desire for profitability, they've wrecked it.
I still do enjoy the hobby. It's taken me many places I hadn't been before and probably wouldn't've otherwise.

But I can tell you, the company themselves aren't really part of my hobby any more. They've given me ideas and skills (if rather indirectly in the latter case) which I've picked up and run with. While it would have been very nice to see them running alongside, they've gone off in a completely different direction - doing it for the money, rather than for the love of simply doing it.

Whether I consider myself a Games Workshop gamer any more is a tough question. I still play games they've written and use models they made, but what I do isn't really what it means to be a GW gamer any more.

It's what it used to mean, but these days to be a GW gamer means you're a young teen with parents with more money than sense, a predicted attention span of about 18 months, always buying the latest shiny models and barely pushing your hobby further than making Space Marine Mary Sue #15,458,498,852 - a basically stock model except for a crudely done weapon swap.

Do I want to be seen that way? No, not at all. I'm definitely still a hobbyist/gamer, but a GW one?... a few years ago, it would have been a yes. Now I don't know, and that's probably actually very telling.

Quote
I'm getting the impression that I shouldn't bother buying stuff from FW then?
Actually, pretending GW actually have some sense, they may swap a lot of FW stuff onto the same resin. It'll save costs, and it sounds like they've put some real time into developing this resin (although they could be lying between their teeth. Wouldn't be the first time).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 02:56:22 AM by MarcoSkoll »
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Offline Macabre

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 06:11:29 AM »
They haven't put any time into developing this 'new' resin. Having been fortunate enough to see some of these unpainted new finecast range earlier this week (surreptitiously of course by pulling strings with the local GW staff), they are riddled with hairline cracks, molding scars and on one (the ork big mek) fresh from the packaging the detail on the body was horribly distorted by bubbling.
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Offline Inquisitor Octavian Lars

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2011, 07:19:12 AM »
 ::) though, great for nurgle models.
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Offline Dolnikan

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2011, 10:14:07 AM »
Too bad that they don't even do proper quality control.

My girlfriend and I have stopped making regular purchases a few years ago. Nowadays we don't really buy anything GW, especially not for our armies, that is simply too expensive for us. Of course we could buy stuff without going bankrupt but we can no longer justify paying those prices to ourselves.

We still like playing the games, painting and modeling. I used to like opening the blisters an boxes but now I only have the feeling that I pay far too much for what is still a small lump of metal.

GW is a very strange, in my opinion even illogical company. They continually raise their prices without taking into account that they lose customers by doing so. I sometimes get the idea that they think people have a set budget to spend on their stuff and will always keep spending that amount, no matter how little they get for it. It just seems like completely incompetent management. They have seen a continual decline in sales and have failed to respond adequately to it. They only raise the prices leading to a further decline in sales leading to new price increases.

They are active in a market where more and more competitors arrive, they however don't even try to compete with them, they ignore the competition and just hope that it will go away.
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Offline Ferran

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Re: Citadel Finecast
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2011, 01:29:11 PM »
They haven't put any time into developing this 'new' resin. Having been fortunate enough to see some of these unpainted new finecast range earlier this week (surreptitiously of course by pulling strings with the local GW staff), they are riddled with hairline cracks, molding scars and on one (the ork big mek) fresh from the packaging the detail on the body was horribly distorted by bubbling.

...