Author Topic: Plas Steel and Adamantium?  (Read 24747 times)

Offline Tullio

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2009, 01:19:07 AM »
I hate to be an ill-educated arse, but Index Astartes explicitly refers to the huge amount of molten adamantium that naturally occoured within Nostramo. This would suggest to me that it's a at least a naturally occouring fictional metal

Tullio

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2009, 01:39:49 AM »
The suggestion that all flamers, even Marine flamers, are equipped for use in vacuum is still laughable, as is the suggestion that the fuel itself contains oxidisers, which would be stupidity taken to epic levels.

Flamers might exist that can be used in a vacuum, but not all flamers would be, and even if such weapons exist, they would be dramatically limited.

Quote
The remaining survivors are the ones you need to worry about.
Then deal with them with a weapon that will work in a vacuum. If you haven't got another weapon, then you'll have to do without.
If I had to cross water, I wouldn't faff around with creating an amphibious car, I'd use a boat. If no boat were available, I'd swim.

Even if they have no sidearm, a Terminator still has a power fist if their flamer goes south. They've got to be used to making do, because the promethium would run out every now and again.
And on that note, what happens when a Storm bolter armed Terminator uses up their magazine? You're not going to be reloading ANY weapon with a power fist for your second hand. Anyone familiar with Tactical Dreadnought armour has got to be familiar with being reduced to just a close combat weapon.

~~~~~

To get back to the original topic...

This would suggest to me that it's a at least a naturally occurring fictional metal
Well, that rules out the artificial element theory.

It does make the alloy theory a little more questionable, but it could still be shorthand for "ores used in the creation of adamantium."
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Offline Aidan

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2009, 03:11:16 AM »
Sorry to be on topic here (I find the off-topic discussion otherwise quite interesting, though!), but I'd like to reinforce the point that plasteel is almost certainly not just polymer- whether a metal-polymer composite (I have no idea if that is possible, I'm no metallurgist) or some kind of treated steel I don't know,  but I tend to imagine it as more metal than plastic, and refer to plastics as 'polymer' in 40k, to be clear about it.

As for adamantium - it is indeed a term that goes back to the classical age, and some classicists have argued that it is just an archaic term for... iron. Yup, plain, boring iron, largely obsolete in its unalloyed form today. Clearly, 40k adamantium isn't that, but I'd go with it being either a re-naming of a dense metal or an alloy of dense metals, which have already been suggested. An undiscovered element would also be possible, but only in as much as science fiction is written with with limited respect for science. Because undiscovered elements would all be fitting at the big and unstable end of the periodic table. And unless human understanding of atoms is completely wrong, there isn't space for any whole elements in between.

The suggestion that all flamers, even Marine flamers, are equipped for use in vacuum is still laughable, as is the suggestion that the fuel itself contains oxidisers, which would be stupidity taken to epic levels.

That... would... be... hilarious. Even the Imperium wouldn't be that daft.

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Offline Koval

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2009, 07:33:45 AM »
It does make the alloy theory a little more questionable, but it could still be shorthand for "ores used in the creation of adamantium."
From my understanding of it, natural alloys do exist, so this should reduce the questionability of adamantium being an alloy.

Offline N01H3r3

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2009, 11:57:29 AM »
The suggestion that all flamers, even Marine flamers, are equipped for use in vacuum is still laughable, as is the suggestion that the fuel itself contains oxidisers, which would be stupidity taken to epic levels.

That... would... be... hilarious. Even the Imperium wouldn't be that daft.
[rant]Because shouting "WRONG!" at the background whenever you don't believe it to make sense is the appropriate response...

It's called suspension of disbelief, a requirement when dealing with any form of fiction, particularly fantasy and sci-fi (remembering that 40k shares more in common with the former than the latter - it's fantasy dressed as science fiction). In this case, it's the acknowledgement that our understanding of science, while not inconsiderable, remains incomplete (and gladly so - our scientists would have nothing to do if they knew everything about the way the universe works), and thus what we are limited to doing (such as, our inability to travel and communicate between worlds within a reasonable amount of time) has very little bearing on the capabilities of a culture who are still far more scientifically and technologically advanced than we are, even with all that they've lost.

I'm not saying "just go with it, it's sci-fi, it doesn't matter". What I'm asking is that people try and work from the other direction - starting with the known element of the setting and determining how it is possible, even with a couple of vague assumptions (Star Trek example: the function of the Warp Drive is a relatively easy one to consider, assuming the existence of subspace... the use of subspace is the notional leap upon which logical foundations can be constructed), rather than starting from the modern day and coming to the dismissive conclusion that something is wrong, because frankly, that's not constructive...[/rant]
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2009, 02:36:15 PM »
What I'm asking is that people try and work from the other direction - starting with the known element of the setting and determining how it is possible...
It is not possible to use a fuel with already mixed in oxidisers like that, because it can and will burn inside the tank.

Quote
...even with a couple of vague assumptions...
I sort of work on the principle of "why ask for suspension of disbelief if you don't need to", but...

However, let's propose that they have a version of promethium that's very strong acid (of course, one that wouldn't damage the flamer). It wouldn't burn in vacuum, but it would still prove dangerous. But then, you've then got to get around fluids not boiling off in vacuum.

To illustrate the point, take a syringe and fill it with boiled water so there are no air bubbles present. Cover the end, and you can't push the syringe in... but now pull it. It'll move just fine, and you'll end up with a large void, filled with what is actually low temperature steam.
A vacuum causes boiling points to change, and in this case, the minor vacuum you just created was enough to boil water - at least until enough had boiled off to bring the pressure up high enough that no more would. In a vacuum like space, liquids would easily boil off.

To tell the truth, I'm not even sure how a flame would react in a vacuum. Micro gravity is one thing to find out (it burns in a sphere), but there's very little information on how one would act in a vacuum. With the aforementioned caveat on liquids boiling off, I suspect it's an idea of very limited viability on that basis alone, even without worrying about where the oxygen comes from.

EDIT:
a metal-polymer composite (I have no idea if that is possible, I'm no metallurgist)
It's viable on a scale like carbon-fibre. In other words, where you've got a metal weave supported in a plastic base, and indeed, such materials exist. However, that wouldn't match the qualities normally given to plasteel.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 02:42:05 PM by MarcoSkoll »
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Offline N01H3r3

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2009, 05:43:52 PM »
Something that came to me a few minutes ago, something I've only just remembered.

The recently-released Central Supply Catalogue for Mongoose Publishing's version of Traveller contains a number of 'flame weapons' which go a step beyond the conventional notion of a device that spews burning fuel over the target.

It starts with the Projection Flamer, which unleashes 'gouts of atomised fuel in a swirling cone' and which have 'a very high damage output but do not continue to burn on a normal target like other flamethrowers', and then continues the trend for "other ways to make people over there burn" with the Gauss Flamer (also known as the Gauss Thermite Superflamer), a weapon that accelerates metallic flechettes at high speed towards a target and ignites them, and then capping off the list with weapons that are more properly plasma weapons used in a manner akin to flamethrowers, projecting jets superheated ionised gas at the target.

Some things to think about, particularly as Promethium seems solely to be a colloquialism for "non-specific fuel".
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2009, 07:17:13 PM »
... weapons that are more properly plasma weapons used in a manner akin to flamethrowers, projecting jets superheated ionised gas at the target.
Actually, I'll admit that I've been writing almost exactly that (although I didn't base the idea on anything specific) into the Revised Armoury over the last week or so.
However, that's a bit of a stretch of the definition of flamethrowers.
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Simeon Blackstar

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2009, 10:25:20 PM »
Just thinking - could the heavy flamers normally use normal fuel, then have an additional oxidiser supply for vacuum use?  It might explain all the tubes, and makes sense at least on first thought for my admittedly un-chemistry oriented brain.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2009, 11:06:19 PM »
That was kinda what I've been implying would have to be the option if you really did have to have a flame in vacuum.

But I'm increasingly beginning to doubt how possible a flame in a vacuum is, with or without oxidiser.
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Offline precinctomega

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2009, 08:41:05 AM »
I've always assumed that "adamatium" and "promethium" were placeholder names, used by the AdMech to describe a huge range of valuable fuel and metal alloys of entirely different types, concealing their true nature from the uninitiated.  So the naturally occurring adamantium of Nostramo, and the artificial adamatium of Land Raider hulls need not be anything like the same metal.

That way, "I extract natural adamantium" and "I construct artificial adamantium" need not be mutually exclusive claims.  The "adamantium" on Nostramo might simply be a cover word for iron ore, whilst the "adamatium" on a Land Raider's exploded diagram might be a special secret AdMech alloy.

The same applies to promethium.

R.

Offline Adlan

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2009, 01:52:22 PM »
Actually, on that note, that's one of the few things that irritated me about Firefly, the fact that Vera was supposed to need air to fire. (Science Fail)
But in their defence, although they don't need air to fire, guns do need air to cool them, so sustained fire with them in vacuum is pretty ill advised, as the gun will rapidly overheat and damage itself. So actually, you'd probably need specialised bolt weapons as well for using in a vacuum, made of more durable materials, and with a cooling system that could work in a vacuum*

And on that continued side note, because browncoat discussions always are appropriate, it was a case of did the research badly. They asked their gun guy if firearms could fire in a vaccum. He said no, and the writers then assumed it was because they needed oxygen.

Oh well, could just be that Jayne is dumb, and made the same assumption.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2009, 03:33:19 PM »
Oh well, could just be that Jayne is dumb, and made the same assumption.
Ah, the old fall back - It wasn't the writers' mistake, it was the character's...
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Offline N01H3r3

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2009, 03:40:41 PM »
Oh well, could just be that Jayne is dumb, and made the same assumption.
Ah, the old fall back - It wasn't the writers' mistake, it was the character's...
Hey, it's a solid excuse - if the writers can screw up like that, why can't the characters do likewise?
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Plas Steel and Adamantium?
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2009, 08:05:01 PM »
Hey, it's a solid excuse - if the writers can screw up like that, why can't the characters do likewise?
Perhaps, but it gets more questionable when it's something a character familiar with firearms would probably know - and with the number of characters present at the time (and most similarly familiar, although not obsessed, with firearms) somewhat more so.

But then again, there are other issues with the show. Flat sides on a spaceship wouldn't exactly be a wise engineering choice.

Either way, it's still a good piece of television.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

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