Main Menu

News:

If you are having problems registering, please e-mail theconclaveforum at gmail.com

Revised Psychic Power Rules

Started by Molotov, January 01, 2012, 11:52:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Molotov

Hey guys,

I've been working on some revised rules for Psychic Powers which I'm hoping to use in my INQ28 games (and which will likely be adopted for the INQvitational as well.)

My goal was to increase the "weirdness" of Psychic abilities, but also to make them a little more useful.

There's three main things I've done:

1. Nullification works differently, based on a suggestion by Marco. Casting a power requires dedication and focus, whereas a nullifier has to react quickly to nullify, putting strain on his powers. As a result, a nullifying psyker takes the negative modifer, rather than a casting psyker. Also, if a psyker nullifies multiple powers in one turn, it takes a strain upon his psychic ability, forcing him to halve his willpower each time, just like a parry attempt.

2. I've incorporated Psychic Phenomena and Perils of the Warp tables, heavily based on Dark Heresy.

3. I've used Goldeneye's mechanic to allow Psykers to take "Psychic Recovery Tests", allowing them to focus and restore lost Willpower.

I've included the rules in a PDF file here, and would appreciate feedback. In the psychic phenomena and perils tables especially, there are a lot of placeholders, because I wasn't sure what was appropriate. Please chime in! I would appreciate the feedback.

Linky-dink.
INQ28 Thread | INQ28 Blog
INQ28, done properly, is at least the equal of its big brother - and Mol is one of the expert proponents of "done properly".
- precinctomega

MarcoSkoll

#1
Mostly looks good to me, but a couple of issues:

QuoteAn enemy psyker may spend actions attempting to nullify persistent powers which are currently in effect. He takes a Willpower test and, if he is successful, the ability immediately ceases to function.
I know this is basically lifted from the rulebook, but I houseruled this for being completely ridiculous. As written, it's possible to nullify the Warp Strength an opponent is using on the other side of the board for no more than passing a simple Wp test. (Which as most psykers have a high Wp, is pretty unfair)

As such, I treat it as an opposed test between the two psykers, both treating it as ranged (where it's the distance to whatever effect they're trying to cancel/maintain). Whoever gets the better pass/lesser fail wins - in the case of a draw, the sustainer wins.

This makes much more sense to me - it is a bit daft if a Wp 67 Interrogator with only Detection gets a two in three chance to negate the terror aura of the Wp 85 Zeta-level Primaris psyker who can invade a mind in a dozen and one different ways (and who also happens to be half a table away).

EDIT: Damn it Marco, read the post properly! Edited for stupidity.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Molotov

I'm not saying these are perfect, but to counter your point, I would guess that a Psyker couldn't nullify Warp Strength from across the board because they're not "directly affected" by the power.

Taking your concept, it would seem to run something like:

1. Caster successfully passes power.
2. Nullifier must pass a willpower test by a greater margin than the Caster did.
3. If the Nullifier succeeds, the power fails, otherwise the power succeeds.

However, a Caster won't ever be casting on full willpower really, with the difficulty of a power affecting their Willpower. This means the Nullifier (technically) has an advantage - though obviously they could have a lower willpower.

1. Caster successfully passes power.
2. Nullifier must pass a willpower test by a greater margin than the Caster did. (Treating it as a ranged ability, with the distance to the Caster as a modifier)
3. If the Nullifier succeeds, the power fails, otherwise the power succeeds.

Hmm, I'll give that a think - thanks for that.
INQ28 Thread | INQ28 Blog
INQ28, done properly, is at least the equal of its big brother - and Mol is one of the expert proponents of "done properly".
- precinctomega

Kaled

It might be worth asking PrecinctOmega if he'll post the Inq2.0 psychic power rules as they worked really well in the playtest games that I was involved in. I forget how they worked, but they may provide some ideas you can use...
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Dolnikan

I liek these rules, they make psychic powers a lot more interesting to use.
The psychic phenomena are very interesting and you really don't want to suffer from the perils of the warp which are not too dangerous to be used at all.
Circles of the wise My attempt at writing something, please comment on it if you have any advise.

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: Molotov on January 02, 2012, 09:51:34 AMI'm not saying these are perfect, but to counter your point, I would guess that a Psyker couldn't nullify Warp Strength from across the board because they're not "directly affected" by the power.
Ah. If that's the way you're interpreting it, then it's all pukka.

We only ever took that rule restriction to apply to immediate nullifications - and now I think about it, I'm not entirely sure why. That said, I do quite like it, psykers getting into mental battles where they try to disrupt one another's focus.

Quote2. Nullifier must pass a willpower test by a greater margin than the Caster did. (Treating it as a ranged ability, with the distance to the Caster as a modifier)
I wouldn't necessarily say to the caster, as it seems more appropriate to have it targeting the effect, but ranged nullifications does put things on a bit more of an even footing.

(And I've just bloody realised something about the Summer Conclave. I could have nullified that sodding Blinding Flash! That's what I get for being sleep deprived though, I guess.)

~~~~~

As far as the psychic phenomena tables, I've been looking at the dice rolls (on which note, the phenomena table has no 73 or 74), and I've suddenly wondered if there's any particular reason the tables cannot be combined?

I'd suggest that if you can conjure up another couple of effects, you could have 15 phenomena at 5% each,
(Sum total of 75% of the table) and then 12 Perils at 2% each (24% of the table) with the final 00 for Etheric Assault.
This would neaten the percentages a little (while keeping the 75%/25% ratio of phenomena to perils) and simplify it down to just one roll.

For suggestions for phenomena (you have 12 at the moment), you might simply want a couple of fairly harmless ones. The fact is, failed risky actions (~35% depending on speed) are a bit more common than rolling a 9 in Dark Heresy (you'd need to be using 4 dice for about the same chance, which is quite a lot), and there's quite a lot of harmless but freaky stuff on the DH Phenomena tables.

As an alternative suggestion, you could have a fully loaded table, but have it that the psyker has to pass a Wp test (I'd suggest at half Wp) when they get a Risky Action. If passed, something freaky but trivial to gameplay happens (you could have a "minor phenomena" table for suggestions - this could be rolled on, but perhaps players might have ideas about their psykers having "trademark phenomena"). If failed, then you start on the Major Phenomena.

To be honest, thinking about it, I prefer the latter suggestion.
In any case, you might find that without a bit of a chance for "Bloody hell, it's freezing in here, what did you do?" the Phenomena could have a bit too much effect on the game.

In other news, I'd also suggest "Void looks Back"would be better as a Nv test and "The Earth Protests" as either a Strength or Initative test.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

InquisitorHeidfeld

Personally I'm moving psychic powers back towards the WFRP/Rogue Trader systems - tiring the user as they use their "points", reducing some of the randomness by allowing psykers to overpower their attempt to activate or nullify a power...etc...

Things like the perils of the warp and such however I've moved to special rules for Wyrds however - The Imperium at least shouldn't suffer much from them - the psykers which aren't powerful enough, strong enough of will and with iron control to resist casual daemonic influence are soulbound to The Emperor or killed after all.

Now of course less casual influence is still always a possibility - they got Horus after all - but to my mind that shouldn't be a random event.

Molotov

Marco: Many of your points are entirely valid, and I'll likely include almost all of them into the second draft.

Heidfeld: I'm not sure you make your first paragraph explicit enough.

As to the second point, I'm not sure I entirely agree. Whilst, yes, the Imperium does send the vast majority of its psykers to the Golden Throne, it's been a long-standing part of the fluff that the warp can claim even the most skilled psykers. Even the Eldar can be prone to it, and with their long lives and rigid control, you'd think they'd be better-protected than Humans. Plus, consider the long-standing concept of the Imperial Guard Commissar executing the sanctioned psyker who falls to Perils?

If this is just something where we have differing concepts of the 40k universe and we're never likely to agree, then fine - we each have our own 40k in our heads, and there's nothing wrong with that.
INQ28 Thread | INQ28 Blog
INQ28, done properly, is at least the equal of its big brother - and Mol is one of the expert proponents of "done properly".
- precinctomega

InquisitorHeidfeld

The randomness of "the perils" makes a certain degree of sense in a battle game but much less so in a persistant RPG - especially where a player's primary character (or only character) is a psyker.

The original fluff suggests that psykers are relatively safe as long as they're either soulbound or strong enough themselves not to require it (notes include that any Inquisitor who's psychic is strong enough - the rest don't get that far)...
I would also suggest that Humanity are actually a more psychic race than the Eldar – at least in potentia – Humanity are nascent while the Eldar are mature, all Eldar are psychic to some degree but (ignoring the reincarnation of the Shaman) The Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy and, while they never make it to adulthood, no other race has psykers with the potential power of a human Alpha Grade.

Of course the idea that any psyker can be a door to the horrors of the other side is certainly there but it's balanced by the rarity of such events (if perils of The Warp happened half as often as they do in 40k then the Imperium would have been wiped out a long while ago rather than encompassing 90+% of the galaxy...)
Consider that, even if you assign a very small chance (for the sake of arguement roll a D1000 and only suffer perils on a roll of 666, a 0.1% chance) the choir of the Astronomicon and navigation around The Imperium would be all but impossible. Ten thousand (or tens of thousands depending on source) of psykers, even at a 0.1% chance, leads to a lot of work for the Custodes.

Rather than making it random I feel it's better to make it plot...
...Or a player choice.
I'm still working on the points system for my own games so I don't have firm numbers as yet - but one consideration is that psykers draw their power from the warp, whereas the Rogue Trader and WFRP systems gave characters with psychic abilities (or magic) a large reservoir and very slow regeneration I'm going the other way – with little reservoir and a number of points they can safely use (draw and spend combined) each round it's relatively simple to maintain sustainability, relatively simple too to hold something in reserve... it's also relatively simple to find one's self in a position where just a little more is required, where the lives of the player characters and their followers hinge on a psyker pushing the boundaries of what he or she can safely maintain... Of course they could hold back, they could restrict themselves to what they can safely handle – but they can push themselves a little bit, right?

At present I'm working on the basis that every point used (drawn and spent) over a psyker's limit "burns" their WP (it will recover at a rate of 1 point per hour where activity is below a certain threshold), each draw where the usage limit is exceeded requires a WP check, if passed the psyker draws what they want, if failed they'll additionally draw enough to fill their reservoir (I'm not certain how I'm going to work it given the many potential power usage, nullification, defences...etc. possible in a round but I want to do the same, emptying the reservoir, with expenditure).
The aim is to make pushing the envelope by small amounts tempting but large amounts painful however things change somewhat should the psyker reach 0 WP.
True Wyrds have unusually large reservoirs, meaning that they're potentially incredibly powerful but, as they're uncontrolled, particularly dangerous.

Sanctioned Psykers have a low limit, adequate for most, mundane, day-to-day tasks but insufficient for more explosive, battlefield uses, they therefore exceed their limits more often than more powerful psykers – the soulbinding ritual however grants them an additional pseudo-WP pool which they tick off before burning their own WP. Given sufficient rest and recuperation between exertions they're pretty safe (though sufficient R&R is seldom a common commodity on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium).

Dolnikan

I think that psychic powers are always dangerous to use, but in mundane, relatively stress-free circumstances very little will go wrong. When a psyker has enough time to prepare mind and body and lots of support it will be very safe. However, when more stress is introduced, such as on a battlefield or when simply hurried, more will go wrong, leading to the odds for problems we see in games, after all, noone wants to play throguh an hours-long ceremony used for sending a message or something like that.
Circles of the wise My attempt at writing something, please comment on it if you have any advise.

InquisitorHeidfeld

Quote from: Dolnikan on January 04, 2012, 04:43:21 PM
I think that psychic powers are always dangerous to use
Quote from: Dolnikan on January 04, 2012, 04:43:21 PM
in mundane, relatively stress-free circumstances very little will go wrong.
Quote from: Dolnikan on January 04, 2012, 04:43:21 PM
When a psyker has enough time to prepare mind and body and lots of support it will be very safe.

(Emphasis mine)

Consider the number of psykers in the Imperium, the number on Holy Terra alone - not only the Astronomicon but the Scholar Psykana, the various psykers of the Inquisition, the Librarians of the Imperial Fists, the numerous Sanctioned and Primaris Psykers stationed there and the any psykers which may be there on pilgrimage...
If psychic powers were always dangerous then the entire planet would probably have been ravaged long ago... As I say, even a 0.1% risk becomes significant when it's being taken constantly by hundreds of thousands of people.

Dolnikan

That is correct, however, psychic choirs are often attended by special agents and servitors which will kill psykers who even show a sign of a mishap. The odds for a full incursion from psychic malfuntion in a trained psyker will be very low, most of the time they will simply suffer horribly. And a 0.1% risk remains immensely high. Most tasks performed by psykers wold be virtually safe, only when stress is introduced or harder tasks are performed will a psyker actually fail dramatically.
One of the reasons why psykers are hunted down is that they can serve as a gateway for the warp. Training vastly reduces the risk of this and in most circumstances it will be quicly stopped by the aforementioned 'guards'.
Circles of the wise My attempt at writing something, please comment on it if you have any advise.

MarcoSkoll

I think when we say "always dangerous", we mean the percentage risk is in the same kind of sense as driving a car is always dangerous. Individually there is little risk, but when we look at the accident statistics for the whole country/world, it is obviously a dangerous activity overall, and it can go wrong even when driving a mile to the shops on quiet roads in good weather.

The side effects of a psyker losing control can however be much more serious than a car driver losing control. Hence, even if a psyker is less likely to crash than a car driver (which I'm not necessarily saying they are, as they are feared for a reason), it can be thought of as more dangerous simply because of the scale of a failure.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

Easy E

Quote from: Dolnikan on January 05, 2012, 02:34:24 PM
That is correct, however, psychic choirs are often attended by special agents and servitors which will kill psykers who even show a sign of a mishap. The odds for a full incursion from psychic malfuntion in a trained psyker will be very low, most of the time they will simply suffer horribly. And a 0.1% risk remains immensely high. Most tasks performed by psykers wold be virtually safe, only when stress is introduced or harder tasks are performed will a psyker actually fail dramatically.
One of the reasons why psykers are hunted down is that they can serve as a gateway for the warp. Training vastly reduces the risk of this and in most circumstances it will be quicly stopped by the aforementioned 'guards'.

Matthew Farrer's book Blind by the3 Black Library deals a lot with a Astra Telepathica Choir station.  Each high level Astropath is always accompanied by a "Villifer".  The Vilifer's job is to shoot any psyker that has succumbed or possibly be succumbing to the warp. 

The Villifiers seem somehow attuned to their master and their state of mind, but almost like Servitors.  They never speak or participate, and simply follow behind silently.  Laspistol in hand, bound by a purity seal.

Intersting book, and it made me want to do something with Vilifers for Dark Heresy or INQ.       
^Cheapskate^

InquisitorHeidfeld

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on January 05, 2012, 03:13:32 PM
I think when we say "always dangerous", we mean the percentage risk is in the same kind of sense as driving a car is always dangerous. Individually there is little risk, but when we look at the accident statistics for the whole country/world, it is obviously a dangerous activity overall, and it can go wrong even when driving a mile to the shops on quiet roads in good weather.

The side effects of a psyker losing control can however be much more serious than a car driver losing control. Hence, even if a psyker is less likely to crash than a car driver (which I'm not necessarily saying they are, as they are feared for a reason), it can be thought of as more dangerous simply because of the scale of a failure.

My original point was that Perils of the Warp were not the best way to describe that type of risk, if for no other reason than that the story suffers if, halfway through the book the principle character swerves to avoid a cyclist, pitches the front wheel into a ditch, rolls the car and is killed.
QuoteThings like the perils of the warp and such however I've moved to special rules for Wyrds however - The Imperium at least shouldn't suffer much from them - the psykers which aren't powerful enough, strong enough of will and with iron control to resist casual daemonic influence are soulbound to The Emperor or killed after all.

Now of course less casual influence is still always a possibility - they got Horus after all - but to my mind that shouldn't be a random event.
If you have a Perils of the Warp table which kicks in on a percentile dice roll then it becomes arbitrary and from a story point of view arbitrary is bad. Fair enough if someone pushes the limits all the time or if hostile forces are working against them but I'd just rather not see that as down to luck. So, with the exception of True Wyrds (The Psychic equivalent of Trashcan man) I limit the perils to player choice or plot.