Author Topic: Revised CCW  (Read 13930 times)

Offline Alyster Wick

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2016, 03:36:19 AM »
I'm currently using the Arming sword (often called the Knightly sword, but that name seems less suitable, given that "Knight" means other things in 40k))

You know, this got me thinking and I ultimately decided to go with "Gothic Sword". It's non-sense from a real-world standpoint, but I feel like Gothic is a good descriptor for the generic sword, given the universe.

By Only War, the 40kRP system had something like that in the Primitive and Proven characteristics. Primitive (7) means that any single die that rolls over 7 is treated as 7 (although can still trigger Righteous Fury on a natural 10). Proven (3) is the reverse. Any single die under 3 is treated as 3.

I had considered adopting the idea for parts of the RIA, but with Inquisitor not being built on solely D10s (and their D5 derivatives) and the fact I already have Rending, Trivial, Tearing* (and, at one point, "Anti-Tearing" is used) to play with, I've already got a lot of control over the statistics, so I thought it would just be too much more complexity.

I actually really like all of this. Primitive and Proven are much better than min and max, though for the draft I'm working on I've used min and max since they're compact and easily fit in the damage column. This makes it easier to remember as opposed to having 2d6 as the damage value then a special rule limiting or bolstering that value.

The funny thing though is that I had never considered using d5 until I read this! No idea why that never crossed my mind as d5s offer up much more variety than d3s.

________________________________________

On to the rules preview though! I hope folks will find this interesting, it's the rough draft of all the Blade type weapons I currently have (excluding some hybrid weapons that can count as bladed or something else). To help understand what's below, you should know that all weapons now have a "Type". This was originally meant just to help me sort things out, but I realized that it was a fun way to offer some variety. Currently there are no special rules associated with Bladed weapons, though each "type" will have some unique upgrades (Bladed weapons have things like Serrated and Harpe blades). Polearms (improved chance of crit at their optimal range and the ability to be used as a Staff after a destroyed result) or Axes (double strength bonus on the charge) offer up more interesting possibilities.

Attack Penalties have been dealt with earlier in the post. Some weapons have variably Reaches, meaning they can be held in different positions to different effect (which is only meaningful when using Optimal Range Rules, which are still being worked on). Lastly, there are some Special Rules that aren't fully spelled out here. To give you a flavor, Compact weapons are easier to hide, Common weapons offer a bonus when a character tries to convince an authority figure that it's just something mundane, and Prestige weapons have alternate Penalty Profiles if the user is an expert in that weapon. Oh yes, and Crude weapons can't be upgrades (no mono-molecular shivs, power-hand-picks, or chain-cleavers...well, maybe I should reconsider chain-cleavers...).

Anyway, enough typing, here are the weapons!



What do people think? Would they use something like this? Currently I have about triple the number of weapons listed out waiting for rules and tons of notes on additional special rules, optional upgrades, special abilities, unique weapons, etc. Ideally this would mean about 5 times more mundane weapons as currently listed in the Rule Book with tons more possibilities when you factor in the various ways you can modify these weapons. Hopefully this makes some of my earlier ranting make more sense.

Raghnall

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2016, 04:13:06 PM »
You know, this got me thinking and I ultimately decided to go with "Gothic Sword". It's non-sense from a real-world standpoint, but I feel like Gothic is a good descriptor for the generic sword, given the universe.
Actually, 'gothic sword' makes perfect sense from a real world standpoint. It would be a sword wielded by the ancient germanic people known as the Goths, who played a significant role in the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and the start of the middle ages. Something like this:
http://www.outfit4events.com/runtime/cache/images/productFull/jk_0036-03.JPG
Seems and appropriate name.

Quote
I actually really like all of this. Primitive and Proven are much better than min and max, though for the draft I'm working on I've used min and max since they're compact and easily fit in the damage column.
Well you could always abbreviate Primitive and Proven as Pri and Pro, or something along those lines.

Quote

Seems good for the most part, but I have to query whether the rules for the sabre are quite right. It is still a one-handed sword, and in my mind, all of the one handed swords should be of roughly equal power, with some differences to add variety. With the rules as they stand, it is objectively inferior to the gothic sword, with equal reach and attack penalty, but a worse parry penalty and a lower cap on damage.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2016, 05:19:54 PM »
That looks like a pretty good draft. There are a few things I'd challenge - while I still don't consider myself an expert, I've been trying to learn more about hand to hand combat recently, rather than ignorantly writing rules for something I have no understanding of!).

As far as I know:
- A broadsword is a basket hilted sword (a little like a thick-bladed rapier) not really the large sword you've portrayed it as here.

- "Short sword" and "great sword" are really the kind of general categories you're trying to eliminate with the "Gothic Sword", not specific weapons.
For example, "great sword" would include things like the Claymore (which comes from Gaelic that literally translates as "great sword") and Zweihander that you've already got on the list.

- While the bastard sword is called a "hand and a half sword", it doesn't really mean it's a sword you would use like the original rulebook's suggestion.
They're primarily a two handed sword, but are just about light enough to be (barely) controllable one handed. This provides the wielder with the chance to swap to one hand mid-swing, giving him more reach than would be possible if he had to keep both hands on the sword, and just about enough control to retain and regain control of his weapon afterwards.

It is true that a bastard sword can be wielded more than one way, but rather than a choice between one hand and two hands, it's more one between one-and-a-half hands (using a bastard sword technique) and two hands (using a long sword technique) - whether your other hand is on the hilt some of the time or all of the time.

~~~~~

I don't know what your plans are regarding the Two-Handed rule, although I'm building something one in as an integral part of the IRE melee rules.

Normally, one handed attacks get to use the full strength bonus (as a blow gets a lot of its power from the legs and torso).
Attacks and weapons with the two handed characteristic only benefit from a character's full strength if used in both hands, and suffer a -20 penalty if performed with one hand.
(Currently, I'm treating dual wielding as a two handed attack, as actually trying to stab someone with two knives at once means not being able to get the full power of the leg/torso muscles behind either).

Whether "Great" will be its own rule (somewhat like already exists in the LRB), I don't yet know. Possibly, I'll just establish melee weapon encumbrance instead.

Seems good for the most part, but I have to query whether the rules for the sabre are quite right. It is still a one-handed sword, and in my mind, all of the one handed swords should be of roughly equal power, with some differences to add variety.
For the sabre, it was only really intended to be used for chopping at opponents as you galloped past. It was a bit unwieldy, so not great for actually fencing with an opponent.

That said, I've seen arguments that it might have been harder to parry, as the curve gave its wielder some control past the opponent's blade (for example, if they try and knock your blade left, twisting the sword right brings the tip around to cut across your opponent).

I'm personally considering a "Flexible" rule in IRE, somewhat like already exists for the neural whip in the LRB, where certain weapons are harder to parry.
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Offline Cortez

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2016, 08:01:17 PM »
One of the problems with sword type names is that they often get re-used in later periods or mis-used by historians/writers. A good example of this is the Claymore which can refer either two the Scottish greatsword of the middle ages (another ambiguous term) or the basket hilted backsword of the late 17th/18th centuries.

The broadsword is another one of these as it usually refers to a basket hilted backsword (similar to the claymore), but is also used (possibly incorrectly, it's impossible to say for sure) by historians to refer to a type of single handed sidesword/arming sword used as a secondary weapon by knights rather than as their primary weapon (which would probably be something more suitable for piercing plate armour such as a mace, pollaxe or greatsword).

Bastard swords are another problem name as they seem to be more correctly called longswords in the 15th/16th centuries and were normally used with two hands although there were techniques for using them with one hand. The bastard sword is more correctly described by Joseph Swetham in 1617 as midway in length between a shortsword and a longsword. The masaters of defence contest organised by Henry VIII in 1540 also lists two hande sworde, bastard sworde and longe sworde as separate items.

Long swords themselves can also refer to the swords of the Viking/Anglo-Saxon period or the Elizabethan 4ft long rapier (which are really cool looking swords by the way) and the name is often mis-used to refer to arming swords (in a similar manner to broadswords)

So essentially I wouldn't worry too much about correct names when it comes to swords, no one else does  ;D

What is more important is to use names that most people will understand rather than getting into technicalities.

For example using the names from the rulebook:

Short sword: I always tend to use the Gladius as my archetype for this weapon.You could also use the Seax or Greek Xiphos as your inspiration. i.e a thrusting weapon about 2-2 1/2 ft in length.

Sword: The 'long' sword of the early middle ages would be my primary archetype for this weapon. i.e. about 3ft long, balanced, good at slashing and thrusting.

Bastard Sword: The renaissance era longsword is probably the closest to the stereotypical view of this weapon. i.e. Should be primarily used in two hands, penalty for one handed use. 3-4ft long

Great Sword: Medieval Claymore or German Zweihander. i.e. a Two handed weapon.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 08:34:07 PM by Cortez »

Offline Cortez

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2016, 09:22:13 PM »
So some further thoughts on this.

These are the main sword archetypes that I would like to see included, avoiding weapons that I feel are too similar to really distinguish between each other.

1. Short Sword. I don't really see the need to include weapons such as the gladius as a separate entity as I tend to view a short sword as a Gladius.

2. Sword. If you want to avoid generic names then you may want to call it an arming sword, side sword or long sword (which is what it is referred to in D&D).

3. Bastard Sword. Renaissance era long sword, best to keep to the more familiar terminology though.

4. Great Sword. You may want to call it a Zweihander or a Claymore, but I would again recommend sticking with the familiar terminolgy.

5. Rapier. You may want to include different variations such as the Elizabethan 4ft long variety

6. Epee? I'm not sure on this one, as is there enough difference between this weapon and the rapier.

7. Backsword. Basket hilted, single edged sword. A.K.A. Claymore or Broadsword. You may want to include rules for blade heavy cavalry versions.

8. Sabre. n.b. there are infantry as well as cavalry versions of this sword and they are often balanced fencing weapons as well as the blade heavy versions.

9. Scimitar.

10. Falchion. Similar to the scimitar, but with a less pronounced curve. I'm not sure if both weapons are different enough. Also similar to the sabre.

11. Katana.

12. Wakizashi. Shorter version of the katana.

13. Odachi/Nodachi. Japanese great sword.

14. Tulwar? Not sure if this would be sufficiently different to the sabre/scimitar/falchion to justify as a separate entity.

I'm not really familiar with Chinese swords. What I've seen in movies however look similar to european weapons.

Other Knife type weapons you may want to consider are the poniard, main gauche and sword breaker. Which were all used as parrying weapons.

p.s. If you want to include all the possible variations and feel that you can come up with rules that make them distinctive then feel free.

p.p.s. I realise that a lot of the terms that I use for these weapons were influenced by Dungeons and Dragons rather than reality  ::)

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2016, 11:54:25 PM »
One of the problems with sword type names is that they often get re-used in later periods or mis-used by historians/writers.
Well, there's also a continuum. With designs slowly evolving with time (or geography), how one categorises a given example today is somewhat subjective. 

There's a few terms that are perhaps ambiguous enough to abandon entirely ("broad sword" and "long sword" are perhaps candidates) but a term like "Claymore" is in common parlance much more strongly associated with William Wallace (such as via the horrendously historically inaccurate Braveheart) than with the Jacobites.

Quote
Bastard swords are another problem name as they seem to be more correctly called longswords in the 15th/16th centuries
My understanding is that at the time "long sword" primarily referred to technique (akin to the term "half sword") rather than a weapon, although has come to retrospectively refer to the kind of weapon you would use with such a technique.

Other Knife type weapons you may want to consider are the poniard, main gauche and sword breaker. Which were all used as parrying weapons.
While the sword breaker is interesting, it's quite a misnomer. (Breaking a properly tempered steel blade with your off-hand is... unlikely). More of a sword trapper, and even then it's only likely to work against certain types of blade.

There's a possibility that trapping weapons could be handled with grapple rules - which is something I'm working on for IRE, but I'd need to have the framework to make any suggestions for how to do it.
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Offline Alyster Wick

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2016, 12:41:18 AM »
Lots of great feedback, thanks! There's too many interacting quotes to deal with so stay with me here.

On the generic names (Short Sword, Great Sword) I will look at appropriate alternatives. My thinking with the Gladius was to make it a little more "special" with the 2d5 as opposed to d10. I'm likely to just replace "short sword" with something more specific. For Great Sword I was going for something that defied characterization and lived more in the world of complete fantasy, like Cloud's sword from Final Fantasy (okay, maybe that's an extreme case). Which brings me to a broader point, the difficulty in melding real world with fantasy. I do think there is a place for improbably scaled (cough, heroically, cough) weapons in a game like Inquisitor. That said, I could come up with a name that is punchier (much like the Gothic sword in place of the generic "sword").

Somewhat along those lines, what you're saying about the Bastard sword Marco makes sense, but this may be a situation in which faithfulness to reality takes a back seat to rules dynamics. Having a Bastard sword that can be wielded the way the rulebook describes it creates an interesting variation that I think it worth the logical inconsistency.

For Cortez, I'm going to check out some of those versions you mentioned that I don't have represented. For the record, I'm looking to add the Kopis (as shorter sword that hits like an axe) but I had been thinking about Falchions and Scimitars. I will want to do more research on the practical differences between the two and the difference between curves blade versus straight blade swords.

This brings be (briefly) to the Saber. My thinking with that one was more to represent a sword that was primarily ceremonial (but still lethal) as opposed to representing a cavalry sword. This is coming at it from a more modern view (or modern, low-info, stereotypical view perhaps) but it accomplishes the goal I want. That said, the idea of a distinctly cavalry weapon is interesting, but best left for another day. I'll lump in the idea of the parrying blades with that too, as I love the idea but that may be a bridge too far at the moment (at least for me mentally).

As of right now, I'm likely to do a little bit of tweaking to the table as-is (taking your wonderful feedback into consideration) but I'm also thinking that I'll dive into the other weapon categories before doing a complete overhaul. I want to make sure I didn't over-extend myself here with dice-combinations. In principal I'm thinking axes will be mostly Reach 2 but with higher damages (compared to the reach 2 swords and most of the reach 3 ones) and worse parry penalties. However once I start looking at the possibilities I've already taken up I don't want to find out that I've exhausted the possibilities on my category of weapon.

Again, thank you all for the feedback, I hope to put it to good use (even if it isn't all acted upon immediately). On the whole though it sounds like people are at least interested, which is a positive for me.

Offline Cortez

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2016, 10:21:58 AM »
For Great Sword I was going for something that defied characterization and lived more in the world of complete fantasy, like Cloud's sword from Final Fantasy (okay, maybe that's an extreme case). Which brings me to a broader point, the difficulty in melding real world with fantasy. I do think there is a place for improbably scaled (cough, heroically, cough) weapons in a game like Inquisitor. 


You may want to have a look at the Zanbato (horse slaying sword) as your inspiration for such swords. These are very popular in Japanese anime and computer games.


There's a few terms that are perhaps ambiguous enough to abandon entirely ("broad sword" and "long sword" are perhaps candidates) but a term like "Claymore" is in common parlance much more strongly associated with William Wallace (such as via the horrendously historically inaccurate Braveheart) than with the Jacobites.


For me it's the other way round, when you say Claymore I immediately think of Bonny Prince Charlie, the Highland charge, Rob Roy, Kidnapped etc. So for me I'll always view the Claymore as the basket hilted Jacobite era variety.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 10:38:47 AM by Cortez »

Offline Alyster Wick

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2016, 11:44:04 PM »
Two things I'd like to get comments on:

1) Adding + and - categories to Reach. This is kind of a backdoor way to expand the versatility of ranges without adding even more (and while keeping them conveniently within the construct of 1 Reach=1 inch). A + or - basically comes into play when you're dealing with weapons of your own class at their ideal range, but is otherwise irrelevant. For example, if a Zweihander at 3+ reach goes against a Gothic Sword at a flat 3 and they are both at their ideal range, the Gothic Sword will lose its ideal range bonus, making the Zweihander a slightly better weapon at ideal range.

This is a small way to differentiate very similar weapons. I originally conceived it as only a + system but I figured the minus would make sense too then. I'm considering making most axes reach 2+ to give them an advantage over short swords, because AXES!!!! I dunno, is this too in the weeds? I feel like it's only useful if there are a TON of weapons. On that note:

2) So I have an ever expanding list of weapons. Below I've pasted everything I've got right now. I want to get thoughts on if I'm missing anything. Also, it'd be good to get thoughts on cutting it down, but I think I want to try making rules for all of these first and then see where we are. Loosely, these weapons are grouped together by type (Axe, Blade, Blunt, Fluid, Hand-to-Hand, Polearm), then by reach (lowest to highest) with a bunch of random weapons thrown at the end. Without further rambling:

Tomahawk
Fell Axe
Labrys (Double Bit)
Broad Axe
Brute (Tusk) Axe (primitive but heavy Axe, pointy rock/bone on a stick)
Hatchet
Splitting Maul
Pick Axe
Battle Axe
Great Axe
Bardiche
Klaive
Push-Dagger
Tessen (Bladed Fan)
Shiv
Combat Knife
Hand Pick (like ice pick)
Razor
Knife
Kama/Sickle
Cleaver
Gladius
Machete
Macuahuitl (Mayan Sword)
Xiphos
Kopis
Sabre
Bastard Sword
Broad Sword
Gothic Sword
Claymore
Katana
Rapier
Zanbato
Zweihander
Sai
Bayonet
Kusari-Gama/Sickle on a Chain
Black Jack
Collapsable Baton
Improvised Weapon
Mallet
Truncheon
Club
Cudgel
Hammer
Kendo-Sticks
Mace
Bokken
Great Hammer
Maul
Staff
Tonfa
Improvised Weapon
Flail
Mourning Star
Ball & Chain
Bladed Whip
Whip
Nunchaku
Nine Tails
Chain (wrapped, whip)
Armored Ganutlet
Ashiko
Brass Knuckles
Heavy Object
Kakute
Knuckle Dusters
Neko-Te (claw-rings)
Unarmed
Bladed Gauntlet
Halbred
Hunting Spear
Lance
Pike
Poleax
Spear
Trident
Katar
Roman Scissor
Tiger Claw
Chakram
Weighted Chain (Flying Hammer, Meteor Hammer?)
Wind and Fire Wheel
Shuriken
Javelin
Flying Guillotine
Urumi (short and long?)
Rope Dart

Thoughts? Am I crazy?

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2016, 11:53:41 PM »
Two things I'd like to get comments on:
I can't say much, as I should be sleeping for the IGT but:

Quote
1) Adding + and - categories to Reach.
It's an interesting idea, but cancelling the other player's bonuses (and, if I'm reading it right, only if they match?) is a little odd.

What if - meant that the weapon's ideal range bonus was 0, but + meant it was +20? (Rather than the normal +10). It's relatively simple, meaning certain weapons will more (or less) care about their optimum ranges.
It could be particularly versatile if stacked with the attack penalty mechanic. For example, an extra -10 attack penalty alongside a 3+ reach would effectively be a -10 penalty for not being at optimum range.

Quote
2) So I have an ever expanding list of weapons.
This is too much for me to read through now, particularly as I'm sure I'd have to look some of it up.
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Offline TallulahBelle

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Re: Revised CCW
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 03:18:36 PM »
One random Thing/question about chainswords. They carry a -25% to parry are you going to add anything bout chain vs chain as to be honest id think even though the chaiinsword is hard to parry in canon theres a justification for chain v chain to be a more equal fight I.E the chainsword should discount at least some of the -%

I know gaunt vs the blueblood commander talks about using revesed chain direction to parry a chainblow idk something like dropping the % too a -10 maybe still takes the weight and power into consideration but shows the weapons are equally matched? Maybe an eviscerator vs chainsword at -15.

As for melee weapons falchions I tended to find the curve made parrying easier whereas the sabre I tended to struggle to parry a backsword/arming sword due to the weight difference (using blunt reenactors blades) so that could be something worth doing to make them disctinct from each other.

As for chinese blades... My experience is more limited eith eastern blades BUT the chinese greatsword is VERY different to its western counterpart. Having a very different blade profile think SINBAD style shape with the curve back towards the wielder at the top but not as pronounced as a scimitar. The chinese greatsword gets allot of its power from the weight balance being very axe like the curve of the blade giving that sort of swing momentum so maybe stat it with some sort of middle ground?

Japanese blades tend to focus on sharp with one cut off the draw fighting styles so would suffer in western style clanging sword duels.

Epee vs sabre the sabre is designed as a slashing blade that can stab and the epee is the reverse. Sabres give rise to the prussian/german military (Pre ww2) classical dueling scars of literature (long shallow cuts thatgive the villain scar style wound) so nasty wounds that are going to hurt enough people stop  whereas the epee the slashing is knife slash style wearing down an opponent through blood loss while you wait for the opportunity to run the guy through.

At least based in my training and experience. I prefer sabres because the fighting style is better for larp/reenacting longncutting blows with deft blocking and can parry the epee is primarily stab which isn't really safe I would say sabres in terms of a duelling sabre/military sabre would be more damage than parry speed in its weighting but still better parry than a rapier and the epee being faster than the sabre being more parry less damage.

Marco's trivial damage could possibly work really well for a rapier small wpunds that can deftlynslide into chinks of armour and have the potential to be really nasty whilst carrying the challenge of finding the point to get into. Maybe a - to parry due to the speed involved idk