Author Topic: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury  (Read 84297 times)

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #180 on: September 01, 2013, 10:57:32 AM »
I'm not sure about "total conversion"
Regardless, in any case, any percentage of conversion of mass to energy is likely to be instantly and immediately fatal to anything hit.

Converted matter is 21 billion times more energy per gramme than TNT. Conversion of a few dozen cells would be kilos worth of explosive - and a single eyelash would be about a tonne or two.
But what's more scary is relativistic velocity. At 259,627,885 m/s (0.866 c), an object has more kinetic energy than the total conversion of its rest mass.
And then some things decide to get themselves to within 0.0000000000000000000005% of the speed of light, have 300 billion times their rest mass in kinetic energy, and hit our planet. Fortunately, they're mostly sub-atomic particles.


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Dark Age tech that happened when some bright spark decided to weaponise a conversion field.
Right then. That makes even less sense. Energy conversion is a totally different beastie to mass conversion.

My thinking though was that there are already weapons roughly as powerful (the plasma cannon)
If there are plasma cannon rules, it's not something from either the rulebook or the RIA.

... yet, anyway.

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Oh and i noticed the Mars pattern Lasgun should be weight 35 (25+ 5 for stock, +5 for extended barrel), unless i'm missing something.
Why couldn't you notice that with the other ones before...? *Goes off grumbling something*

That's the problem with having sloppily changed some weights previously...
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Offline Koval

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #181 on: September 01, 2013, 12:27:47 PM »
I'm not sure about "total conversion"
Regardless, in any case, any percentage of conversion of mass to energy is likely to be instantly and immediately fatal to anything hit.
That's sort of the point :P

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Dark Age tech that happened when some bright spark decided to weaponise a conversion field.
Right then. That makes even less sense. Energy conversion is a totally different beastie to mass conversion.
At least, that's my understanding of it -- I don't remember the source in question.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #182 on: September 01, 2013, 12:34:27 PM »
That's sort of the point :P
Not in an Inquisitor game it isn't...
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Offline Koval

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #183 on: September 01, 2013, 12:49:36 PM »
Agreed, not in an Inquisitor game, but that's why you're not making rules for them, and that's why I think not making rules for them is a very good idea!

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #184 on: April 04, 2015, 08:36:23 PM »
Shock! Horror!

It's the Revised Inquisitor Armoury V5.5!

This is a (hopefully) living Beta version, so I hope to be able to make updates relatively soon. It's not V6, as that's (still) waiting for more background text and the Xeno weapons to be ready, but it does include other updates.

- Recoil rules have been simplified. It does make the high recoiling weapons a bit harsher to use, but it also cuts down on the amount of dice rolling needed.
- Two new universal special rules: Soft AP and Multiple Hits. Several weapons were using very similar effects, so they're now basic rules.
- The Hazard rules have been modified to use the version from the Inquisitor 2 draft.
- Assorted simplifications.
- A few range band changes for shotgun ammunition.
- Quite a lot of changes for Bolt ammunition. The Heavy versions of rounds now have specific rules (rather than just +D6 damage). There are cases where the damage stats now use D8s, but the old D6 versions remain an alternative for those without D8s.
- Photon Flash grenades! They have localised area of effect (unlike the LRB) so no more stunning characters over the other side of the table - but they are also more effective against targets in their immediate vicinity.
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #185 on: March 21, 2016, 12:12:20 PM »
Revised Inquisitor Armoury V5.6:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/otqbbsoc8kg107f/Revised+Inquisitor+Armoury+v5-6.doc

Changes:
- Further simplification of recoil
- A couple of new weapons (Double Rifles, Hellfire grenades)
- Assorted tweaks to stats throughout the document, often to weapon shot counts and reloads.
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Offline TallulahBelle

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #186 on: July 11, 2016, 01:57:41 PM »
Two quick comments from old discussion.

The ripper gun at least as far as the 3.5/4th ed 40k codex (the one with the doctrines mechanic) the ripper gun isn't a Shot weapon even though the profile suggests it should be. Its described as a very large calibre weapon that's very crudely made in terms of tolerances (so the buggers dont break it when used as a close combat beatstick) that combined with the fact its mag fed iv always seen it as something along the lines of something like .454casual or .500s&w/50ae.

Large calibre rounds which explains both the punch at short range but limited by the fact its a short straight wall cartridge so cant handle the powders and pressures needed to get rifle like velocity and therefore the recoil is bloody high because 1. The weight of the projectile 2. The velocity isn't great because pf the powder limitation, the projectile weight and the fact its fully automatic.

The bolter despite being a very large calibre round (.75 inch according to the 5th edition gamer special edition ammo tin's selection of the shell size and length.) doesn't suffer from the same limitation as even those versions which are depicted as 2 stage rounds starting as a conventional powder propelled bullet have a gyrojet esque rocket booster. Which explains why bolters at least some of them have always been depicted as caseless the rocket fuel contained in a case which burns off as the fuel does just like the gyrojet.

Now the real gyrojet rounds get more damaging in flight their velocity increasing AFTER they leave the barrel going from around 120fpsto around 1800fps at around 40 feet if memory serves which made them a bugger to shoot well and crap for personal protection as at the 2-4ft of an average SD shooting its more like being hit by a paintball than a bullet.

The rocket boost increasing the fps of the round in flight explains why such a large calibre round can actually have the long range of a bolter because it means that the projectile will be gaining velocity rather than losing it real quick due to wind resistance and gravity.

Bearing in mind with a 4" barrel to hit a target at 100m the hold over for a 357 is somewhere in the region of 12" (meaning to hit the target centre mass im holding the sights on the targets face) that easily explains the limited range of the ripper gun especially if you consider the barrels being designed to tolerate lacklustre cleaning, the odd knock and the fact that the sights are designed for stable and solid first accuracy second (precision iron sights being fairly fragile and intolerant of being bashed around)
 
When you increase bullet rate recoil will go up and when the gun is designed to be full auto the recoil will be even fiercer especially if used by a normal human which again further justifies the short range. It's a spray weapon which gets it's effective damage from the rounds being in the air.

Much as im loath to repeat tired tropes id say the ripper is somewhat similar to the AK (the military arm rather than the civilian sale one produced for sport shooters) as those intended for civilian sales tend to be more accurate and better built. The AK hAd during the soviet era to pass QC to be capable of 8moa (broadly speaking if it put 10 shots within an 8" spread at 100m that was a pass) and when given to poorly trained conscripts who didnt really clean or well care for the weapons (bending barrels using the 'wirecutter' flash hider to cut the bands securing ammo crates wasn't uncommon) that accuracy goes down fairly quick. Built to work and put rounds in the air rather than be a marksman's wet dream able to circumcise a gnat at 20 paces.
Any more accuracy than bare minimum would be a waste in the ripper because its wielders by people who are described as firing them 'because they like the noise' rather than taking time to aim and get good with them.

If you take 40k tabletop ranges as 'the effective range' where hits are the norm for that unit and are a combination of the weapons own inherent accuracy and the training/competence of the shooter. The 12" range for a solid shot fairly crude large calibre automatic make sense. So the 24" range of a lasgun is similar to the fact the M4 in the hands of a US line infantry shooter  is considered to have a combat effective range of around 500m and they aren't taught or expected to shoot much further than that even though the cartridge and platform is capable of 800-1000m in the hands of a skilled shooter


I view INQ ranges to be based purely on the Gun because of the increasing accuracy penalties at longer ranges mechanic reflecting things like bullet drop, the loss of velocity at long range and the quality of the ammo/sight system.
 
Dunno if that actually helps or hinders but that's my thoughts and what I remember from canon anyway hope it gives you something to consider.

The other thing is Flamers, now... It depends how the flamer tanks work BUT I know both Canonically in the world of 40K literature AND in the real world penetration of a backpack tank flamer can lead to the flame trooper having a VERY VERY bad day.

It was common in WW2 for the things to go up because the tank was under a large amount of pressure Any piercings of the tank would lead to a spray of atomized fuel into the air around the user and the pilot light would send that up in a fireball. (there's a fairly good discussion with an MOH recipient flamethrower specialist from the japanese campaign on Son of Guns during their restoration and testing of an original ww2 flamethrower. where he discusses the risk of the tanks going up and other troops fear of that happening as well as specialists un building the things talking about the dangers of the pressure, tanks rupturing and maiming people, backwash igniting the whole setup etc)

In terms of Black library books, the Firstborn novel (the one clearing out the uprising on the prison world) has one of the poor sods go up and kill him and someone next to him. It happens in one of the Cain books and in one of the books that make up that anthology IG containing depictions of 4-5 different regiments.

I would say it would be rare for them to go up BUT I would say it should be possible. Maybe with it being more likely if the guy is firing or has fired it during the turn he's hit. Maybe some sort of modifier based on what rounds are shooting at him. I'd say anything Armour Piercing should be able to crack open the tank and one of the incendiary rounds could probably set the thing off more easily than a standard round.

Now some weapons probably couldn't set the tank off but... With the pilot light providing the ignition source all you'd really need is the tank penetrated because it is canon that the pilot lights are constantly on. Its used as cigarette/cheroot/cigar lighter by guardsmen in allot of books and in the post vehunhive short story in the Ghost's anthology the actual workings of a flamer are discussed when one stops working. The Pilot light runs on a separate sparking/ignition system to the fuel sprayer and carries its own igniter which is meant to be constantly on unless turned off for movement/transport/stealth reasons.

Again thus is just my thoughts offered for consideration/pondering/filing in thebroundncabinet as appropriate so...

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #187 on: July 12, 2016, 01:08:25 AM »
The ripper gun at least as far as the 3.5/4th ed 40k codex (the one with the doctrines mechanic) the ripper gun isn't a Shot weapon even though the profile suggests it should be.
The RIA is, naturally, my interpretation of the weapons in the WH40K universe; however, although there are some suppositions in there, I am (usually :P) working from canon sources.

For the Ripper gun, I used the Imperial Munitorum Manual as a guideline; It's a source that describes a fair number of weapons in some degree of detail (as opposed to trying to build up an overall picture from the various contradictory details that less in-depth sources provide).
The description given there is a sturdy, burst-fire shotgun, which to me is a perfectly reasonable answer to the kind of weapon you would give a thick lunk who doesn't really understand the concepts of shot placement or long range combat. Sure, ogryns like fighting, but shooting someone even fifty metres off isn't what they consider a fight.

In any case, RIA is only a guideline, in any case. Should a player decide that their own ogryn character has been supplied with solid slug ammunition for their Ripper gun (rather than the shot shells many regiments would issue), that would be entirely within the realms of plausibility.

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Which explains why bolters at least some of them have always been depicted as caseless the rocket fuel contained in a case which burns off as the fuel does just like the gyrojet.
I've yet to find any legitimate source for bolters being caseless, despite challenging a lot of people to provide one.

It's possible there's some reference in a BL novel or something somewhere, but all unverified claims I've heard that "it's in Rogue Trader somewhere, honest" are badly outnumbered by the overwhelming quantity of artwork/video games/films showing bolter cases flying around, references to cases in the background and many of the models, as well as actual merchandise (the Masters paint set had a "bolter case" water pot).

My guess is that because that autogun fluff mentions caseless rounds, people got mixed up.

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The other thing is Flamers, now... It depends how the flamer tanks work BUT I know both Canonically in the world of 40K literature AND in the real world penetration of a backpack tank flamer can lead to the flame trooper having a VERY VERY bad day.
I would agree... however, while RIA does try to be more realistic than the LRB, anything that can be described as "very very bad day" is something I am wary about from a playability and enjoyability perspective.

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I would say it would be rare for them to go up BUT I would say it should be possible.
Making extreme events rarer is not necessarily a good way of balancing them, at least not from a psychological perspective.

Let's say we have a player doing something that has a 20% chance of going badly wrong for their character. If that 20% chance happens, he's going to be annoyed, but he will have at least accepted a chance that big was a possibility.
However, if the same bad event has a 2% chance then, although it's a lot less likely to happen, when it does, the player is going to be much more bitter; he will have almost automatically disregarded that 2% chance as a threat, and will feel like he's been screwed over by the dice that much more.

Nasty things in game almost shouldn't be too rare for that reason. Aside from it meaning that said cool stuff doesn't happen, it means that players get particularly screwed over (or at least feel like they have been) if they're on the wrong end of it. With that in mind, I prefer toning back extreme circumstances by making them less extreme than less common.

However, I do want to look at the rules for fuel backpacks again. I'm just not yet sure how I want to go about them. Flamers are indeed nasty weapons in the rules, real life and the background, so fuel leaks are potentially a way of offsetting that. However, threatening players with the risk of their characters spontaneously being cremated by a stray bullet is not an overwhelming motivation for players to use said rules.
There needs to be a medium, I think.
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Offline TallulahBelle

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #188 on: July 13, 2016, 12:49:49 AM »
Weird, I have the munitoriummanual and never twigged that the ripper gun according to the munitorium was a shotgun compared to it being discussed as solid shot everywhere else.

The bolter caseless thing, iv seen it depicted and discussed as both although whether you consider a mention in a WD discussion of model design being canon idk. It was something about the bolter having an ejection port added and approved before realising the things are caseless. Weirdly at the time GW sold an 'eavy metal' paint set which included a bolter shell water pot. I suspect that the bolter thing has been different according to when and who was writing and ultimately the 'shell casings are cool' approach won put.

I do know that the CURRENT discussion of the science behind the  bolter round is as I mentioned in the above post in the justification for the low range of a solid shell ogryn ripper gun a two stage shell made up of the casing with primer and powder then a solid fuel rocket booster and then the actual 'bolt' so it's struck by the pin/hammer/electronic detonation of the primer, primer ignites powder burns gas expands and once the shell leaves the gun the increased oxygen allows the rocket bit to happen giving the hyper velocity and hideous power we all know and love (until its pointed at us)

With the flamer stuff I can really see your point about the risk being a cool mechanic not outweighing it not being fun and rule of cool has to still be fun for the player. The risk of it happening would have to be low in order to encourage flame weapons to get any play and not to annoy people and a character dying due to a single lucky shot that didn't even hit them and potentially killing the flametrooper and friends could cause ill feeling especially if the mechanic was open to abuse via deliberate aiming at the tank.

Personally I think it's something I would leave to be a risk for my NPC flametroopers only and use it to give interesting cinematic moments rather than exposing the players to it. So wouldn't need anything beyond GM fiat in the rules department. Although if I had a player whose entire warband had backpack flamethrowers and was causing discontent I may use the option as a hint.

Realism is nice but when it can cause ill will or drama sometimes it does have to take a backseat. I just posted my info on flame weapons as food for thought because one of the reasons they didnt really see much use post ww2 in terms of man portable/special weapon roles and even vehicle mounted weapons was because they did tend to immolate their wielders on a depressingly regular basis.

On the flamer note have you thought about how things like the hound variants weapons could be used in INQ  things that use the flamer rules but aren't simple promethium?

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #189 on: July 19, 2016, 12:06:13 AM »
The bolter caseless thing, iv seen it depicted and discussed as both although whether you consider a mention in a WD discussion of model design being canon idk. It was something about the bolter having an ejection port added and approved before realising the things are caseless.
Without a page number, that's not a lot of use to me.

In any case, even it is a genuine quote, it's silly:

1) Caseless weapons do need ejection ports. The chamber needs to be cleared if there's have a dud round or the weapon needs to be made safe.
2) Even supposing that it didn't need an ejection port, approving a modification to an STC design is a very slow and closely vetted process. (Even a pure STC design can take centuries to reach production after rediscovery).

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once the shell leaves the gun the increased oxygen allows the rocket bit to happen giving the hyper velocity and hideous power we all know and love (until its pointed at us)
Solid rocket propellant contains its own oxygen (which is somewhat convenient, given Space Marines often have to fight in vacuum conditions); it just doesn't burn quite as fast or explosively as gun powders.

Also, getting into pedantry :P, boltguns probably aren't hypervelocity. Hypervelocity is a velocity that exceeds or is a significant proportion of the speed of sound in the impacting materials (not to be confused with the speed of sound in air). This has the effect of somewhat literally liquefying the targets during the impact, as the velocities involved exceed the speeds at which the stresses can propagate through the material, almost entirely negating the material's strength.

Bolt rounds are certainly going to be faster than you'd expect for a high calibre round fired from a comparatively short barrel, but unless we make insanely generous assumptions about the efficiency of the propellants available (and we have no particular reason to), their peak velocity probably isn't going to be wildly different from a conventional rifle; the advantage is more that the hybrid propellants partially off-set the recoil and allow the use of a smaller overall weapons platform.

(Actually, the bolter makes a heck of a lot of sense as an STC design, particularly when you consider early colonists would have encountered Orks. Although the lack of a stock is still questionable...)

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On the flamer note have you thought about how things like the hound variants weapons could be used in INQ  things that use the flamer rules but aren't simple promethium?
I have, and there are indeed a few non-fire based weapons that use the flamer rules.

I probably should expand that list into weapons that spout toxin or corrosive at some stage, yes, although it may be an issue to balance. It will take a while though, as RIA is currently somewhat secondary to IRE as my main rules writing project.
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Offline TallulahBelle

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #190 on: July 19, 2016, 04:28:39 AM »
I do enjoy these discussions with you @MarcoSkoll as you share my interest in firearms design and mechanics rather than the DEAGLE AM BESTUST WEAPON style gun nuts who infest the airsoft boards.

Yeah I did think that was odd once I had read it at the time actually, as for numbers erm sometime before the WD War of the Beard series which puts it between say 240 and 265 I can't really be more specific as annoyingly my mother randomly decided to throw all my WD's away when I was 16.

It could be done if the Bolter was designed somewhat similar to the volcanic where we'd have to access the rounds via the loading port possibly although clearing a dud round would then be something that couldn't be done on a battlefield especially given that that dud shell could be something with an impact detonating tip or contained some hideous mutagenic chemical and the clearance method would involve a drill bit and a steady hand.

the bolter being a hypervelocity round I could see a case for because we aren't limited by the power of the powder charge as that's only stage one of it's propulsion, so it would entirely depend as to the lift capability of the Rocket stage that ignites once the round leaves the barrel. a .220 swift which is the fastest commercially available round I'm aware of is about 4'700fps give or take a few fps. and that's a 30gr bullet with 39gr of powder. A bolter is nominally around 20mm given the dimensions given in the 5th Edition gamer edition ammo box. a modern 20mm orliken has a 400gr powder capacity of a slower burning powder (mainly because of heat issues) with the round running around 3,380 fps depending on which version of 20mm you use (modern loadings)

 in the 41st millennium things like adamantium and ceramite exist heat as something that overheats barrels could be less of an issue. (We know that Heavy Bolters don't have any cooling mechanism) and have a fire rate of around 580rpm* (according to the Space Marine Game) so barrel cooling doesn't seem to be an issue so faster powders could easily be used so with a conservative easily achievable velocity of say 2200fps as it leaves the muzzle especially combined with the fact that to defeat plastic compesite or ceramic armour Velocity is king (as opposed to steel armour where weight is king.

we know that the standard non carapace guard armour is a plastic composite weight somewhere in the region of 20kg (at least that armour issued to a light infantry regiment, the standard trooper armour may weigh more) though that description is fairly vague as it could be read that some of that weight is magazines and pouches full of issue kit and a bolt round will rip straight through flak without even stopping to knock and we know that rifle level III  poly plastic plate weighing around 3.4kg (large front and back plate in the SAPI cut which is fairly similar to what guard plate is depicted as (I'm using the NIJ ratings here as they give a calibre listing of what each level means, though annoyingly modern armour salesmenship has created things like III+ (based on going look look our level 3 plate also stops this this and this) will stop  .308 FMJ at 2750fps handily for multiple rounds. to punch through a single Poly LIII plate 7.62 wont cut it BUT something like .224boz which is a much smaller calibre at the same velocity will do. (those rounds are generally much like rifle bullets in shape, definitely pointy)

so for a shell like a 19mm which is shown to be in size a pistol round (in terms of case length anyway) depicted as round tipped and full size for the calibre (rather than a sleeved subcalibre sabot type round) to punch through flak as easily as a bolter will would need to be travelling at an INSANE velocity simply to overcome the inefficiency of the bullet design and the fact its such a large calibre so given that it has the advantage of a secondary source of power, I don't think hypervelocity (or close to it) is unreasonable. .220swift with it's 32gr bullet will go through even Level IV armour like it isn't even there because of the speed so to get a 1,543grain bullet (3.5oz) to punch through armour with the same kind of performance it either needs to be some scary sabot type weapon like we are seeing with tank rounds with something like a needle thin tungsten/DU penetrator which isn't something standard bolt rounds have (though does explain how the special armour piercing one, the Kraken Penetrator that the DW use to crack monstrous creatures works, which is at least circa WD259 was described as having an adamantium penetrator) plus we know a bolt round isn't depleted uranium because Leman Russ tank crews aren't depicted as full of cancer and marines aren't glowing.

so it wouldn't surprise me for a Bolter to have a round at the point which it's accelerated by the rocket to the fastest it's possibly capable of for it to reach closer to hypervelocity. When you consider that the Stalker pattern silenced shell has less armour penetration capability than a standard shell, supersonic is loud but supressable anything approaching hypervelocity, the sound would travel much much further.

*given that a Storm bolter is running 480 and a Godwyn Deaz pattern is around 420 recoil must be bloody horrible which does explain why marines can't move and fire the Heavy bolter even with the armour providing recoil dampening and does explain why the ones who could (the Deathwatch, and those with the Relentless special rule) were either using specialist recoil reducing Suspensor fields, were Physically MASSIVE brutes (Harker, Bragg or similar individuals) or superhuman above and beyond a normal marine via mutation, chaos weirdness or the supernatural (Obliterators, LOTD and Thousand Son's)

That's my logic for the idea anyway, hope the way I thought makes at least some sense, I really want to see how your recoil rules play out as I think that would really make people consider not taking bolters so casually as some places I have played they seem an auto include. I have never understood why Bolters don't have stocks, purely from a balance point of view (in terms of wielding one) I can't see something of that length with the weight of a full magazine being comfortable to shoot well. I can shoot the gas in magazine recoiling G36c Airsoft gun with the stock folded fairly well stock folded. but it's awkward and that's only a smallish weight gun thats short and light enough to shoot as a pistol one handed even with a mag weighted like a real 30 rounder and its bolt recoiling back (maybe 50g max.) the balance of the weapon is more even and it can be held Bolt pistol style easily. With the 36 on a sling that is pulled taut I can shoot it one handed all day though without getting frustrated with it.

 the FAL one of the guys has with a DaytonaGun system with it's heavier weight (steel lower, ali upper) 13" barrel and about 150psi pushing a steel bolt back is allot harder to manage comfortably again not because of the recoil but because of the weight and length on the gun just being a pain in the arse, it's bulky, the balance isn't as nice so it feels heavier than it actually is and even with a 3 point sling pulled taut (german army or High Power shooter) it's still awkward as hell but as soon as you unfold the stock it becomes a dream, the balance is perfect, it's small enough to not get in the way in CQB style stuff and it's perfect.

A bolter REALLY needs a stock and to be honest at least HALF the bolt pistols to my mind should have an under or side folder or a one point sling to make GW's poses make sense. If you were handling the pistol  based on their stances you'd be miserable really quickly just because of how awkward the balance is on the bolt pistols plus the bolter for a normal person without the armour compensating with it's google glass style target overlay has absolutely dog [EXCOMMUNICATE] sighting systems. either iron sights unsupported or trying to hold a really crappily balanced HEAVY wide rifle at full stretch to use the scope as a pistol scope. so for me having to keep my arm locked so the eye relief is 14 inch. Urrgh. poor design for a weapon thats so effective especially when shooting immensely dangerous and or valuable ammo thats really hard to resupply with. stuff that give me a bolter with a stock.

the Banewolf flamer equivalent  would be cool as a weapon, maybe use something like an immediate damage roll for the toxic gas with an if it makes contact with the skin (represented by acidic toxic gas eating through the armour to do damage) treat it like you have been hit with the Blood Boil psychic power attack?  I would like to see the reputation of the Banewolf as a terror weapon in INQ reflected in it's rules BUT I don't really know how to do it in a way that isn't clunky.

my first thought would be something like this...

BaneTorch -the coup attempt of Arnal the head of one of the noble families that resented the Government of Colios, after he orchestrated the dismantling of the Democratic Council of Colios brought this rare weapon into the eye of the Adeptus Arbites who began issuing them as a weapon of last resort. Arnal manipulating the press gangs supplying men and women to the Adeptus Militant for the tithe, The disappearance of key votes allowed him to suspend the council, declaring himself Cisar prozivot, his actions plunged Colios into Civil war. where the violence crippled the efforts of the Enforcers not loyal to the upstart ability to supress a mutant uprising. modified version of the . Used by the 131st Coney Dragoon's commonly nicknamed the Pinschers as a crowd clearance weapon when forced to dismount from their scouting vehicles, the Banetorch is a heavy flamer variant based on the BaneWolf's Chem Cannon. it's short range and devastating effect on the morale of those it is deployed against when viewed against it's impact on troop morale means it is rarely seen in the armouries of the Imperial Guard however it has found a home in some Enforcer armouries particularly on worlds where water is a limited resource and flamers are considered too much of a risk to deploy.

Type: Heavy Range: 8 Mode: Flame Acc – Damage 2D6-4* Shots 3 RLD 6 WT 60

•   models hit by the BaneTorch must take a resistance check due to the Toxic nature of the Acidic gas that is eating through their armour and searing their flesh as if exposed to a Gas weapon with equipment modifiers as normal. (Note the toxin hangs and so subsequent hits from this weapon will impose a -2% to the gas resistance, plus an additional 2% for any contaminated anti gas equipment. Example a character with Bionic Lungs would face a -2% plus an additional -2% for his bionic lungs for a total of -4% to his/her test on the second hit, rising to a -8% for the third hit and so on. This -2% can be removed via the use of a medpack/regeneration or similar abilities/psychic powers/sorcery however the player must choose between removing the -2% modifier OR remove D3 damage they cannot do both with a single recovery action. Other characters may assist as normal.

Characters that fail their resistance test take injury equal to one level of the damage tables to the chest and one other exposed location (exposed = a location either bare flesh or covered in cloth only, if there are more than one of these locations roll a die to decide. ) for each 20% the test was failed. (similar to being hit by the psychic blood boil. if the test was failed with a roll of 96-100 then the toxic spray reduces all armoured locations by 1 Point.

Characters who have been hit by the BaneTorch will treat the wielder as Terrifying and must pass a nerve test to step within the range of the weapon. note even characters which would downgrade this to fearsome/ignore this entirely must test

 A character with Nerves of steel that has passed his test to enter within range of the wielder does not have to test again.

terrifying characters who have made a successful test will treat the wielder as fearsome.

Fearsome characters who have passed the test take subsequent tests at -20%

Hopefully this would pass muster as some basic first attempt at a banewolf style weapon. I tried to replace the heavy flamer but reflect the fact that the inferno cannon in 40K can launch the template across the battlefield representing the torrent of flame But the Banewolf is limited by the range of the template. I wanted to get a sense of the level of sheer horror that this weapon is said to cause, the damage isn’t great bu the background gives descriptions of it being fired and units supporting the banewolf freeing in horror and terror themselves. I think I have captured that somewhat. IDK how to add that to it thought. The Melta one I would have to really think about due to the sheer power involved.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #191 on: July 20, 2016, 06:22:05 PM »
the bolter being a hypervelocity round I could see a case for because we aren't limited by the power of the powder charge as that's only stage one of it's propulsion
The maximum volume of propellant is still defined by the overall side of the bolt round and there's there's no good reason I can see that we should assume the rocket stage to be hyper efficient either; In fact, I'd say rocket propulsion is actually less viable for achieving hypervelocity, given the standard issue about rockets having to carry their own fuel.

Hypervelocity is very energetic; At 2900 m/s (9500 fps), the kinetic energy of a 1 gram projectile exceeds the chemical energy of one gram of TNT.
Assuming we have a 1 gram projectile propelled by a rocket fuel roughly as chemically dense as TNT (which is not an unreasonable ballpark), then even if almost the entirety of that projectile is rocket fuel, and that fuel burns 100% efficiently and turns all that chemical energy into kinetic energy, then the negligble remainder of the projectile will have a velocity of about 2900 m/s.

However, that's still off the low end of hypervelocity (which is generally considered to start at about 3 km/s, roughly 9900 fps). That's why hypervelocity normally requires very different technologies like light gas guns or railguns, without these same chemical limits.

But even if we suppose the bolter could achieve hypervelocity through use of much more energy dense propellants (but that the background does quote muzzle velocities for things like autopistols or heavy stubbers that are broadly equivalent to modern weapons, it would not seem the Imperium is wildly ahead of us on that front), the round would become quite an oddity. As I've already noted, at hypervelocity, the kinetic energy of a round exceeds the chemical energy of the same mass of TNT; the concept of combining hypervelocity and a direct-impact explosive (as opposed to an area-of-effect munition) into the same round is kind of weird. Increasing the mass of the projectile would have far more effect on the energy conveyed to the target, making filling out its volume with comparatively low density explosive rather illogical.

There's also not really much of a concept of "armour piercing" at such velocities (like I say, the impacting materials can largely be thought of as liquid; their strength or hardness are almost redundant compared to their density and inertia), so the idea of bolt rounds having a diamantine tip would also be somewhat redundant.

Bolts are definitely going to be doing a fair old lick for 19mm projectiles fired from comparatively short barrels, but my personal estimation is that  their velocities are probably up to about 500 m/s at the muzzle, with a short-burn rocket motor that gets them up to a peak velocity of maybe as much as 800 m/s, attained probably around 10-20 metres from the muzzle.

That relates to a reasonable acceptable maximum for recoil (although I'm being generous in permitting recoil impulses more appropriate to a stocked weapon), and a velocity that would provide a reasonable trajectory out to sensible small-arms ranges. Using more propellant than necessary for that would only use up space within the volume of the round that could instead be used for the explosive core, which is going to deliver energy more effectively to the target.

The kinetic energy and velocity would be broadly equivalent to .50 BMG - and as even the standard ball variants of .50 BMG can defeat Lvl III or IV plates in steel or ceramic, so a bolt round with its hardened tip and high explosive core is going to do pretty well even in spite of its larger calibre.

Plus, although I wouldn't normally give too much credence to WH40K rules, it is worth remembering that bolters are AP5, which means that carapace is at least partially effective against them. At hypervelocity, that's not going to happen. As already mentioned, material strength is almost entirely irrelevant at those velocities*, meaning that armour's effectiveness is mostly defined by its inertia; but given carapace has to be wearable, we can rule out that as a possibility.

*Unless the material has an extraordinarily high speed of sound, but that's defined by known rules, and with armaplas being explicitly a plastic/metal composite, it's not going to fare well on that front.

High velocity, certainly. But not hypervelocity.

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a 1,543grain bullet (3.5oz)
~100g sounds unreasonably heavy for a bolt. That's more like the weight of an 20x82mm projectile or the like, which has a similar composition (in terms of containing explosive, penetrator cores and the like), but is both slightly higher calibre and much greater length than a bolt.
My estimations of the weight of a standard bolt after all fuel is burnt is roughly 50 grams.

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When you consider that the Stalker pattern silenced shell has less armour penetration capability than a standard shell, supersonic is loud but supressable anything approaching hypervelocity, the sound would travel much much further.
Well, that's more of a reason why bolts can't be hypervelocity. Let me show you some pictures from some nutters I know elsewhere on the internet.

This is what a supersonic 0.12g airsoft BB does to a 1mm metal plate:

Large dents for a plastic pellet, but still just dents. (Original video here - note that the 420fps in the description is the camera frame rate, not the velocity).
A slightly more energetic airsoft gun, although firing heavier BBs at a lower velocity, can be seen here needing multiple shots to finally penetrate a similar target.

This is what a hypervelocity 0.12g airsoft BB does to a 3mm metal plate.

The target has literally vaporised; the immediate point of impact was reduced to plasma.
(Yes, there is someone out there who's built a hypervelocity airsoft gun. It bears no resemblance to a normal airsoft gun, being a heavily engineered lump of steel that operates on electrothermal-chemical propulsion).

That's the difference between a supersonic and a hypervelocity impact. If bolts were hypervelocity, stalker bolts wouldn't even be in the league below the league that something that wasn't in the same league as a standard bolt was in.

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[Insert Banetorch description here]
I tend not to describe histories of specific weapons in RIA, as I know many players will just re-write or ignore that background.

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[Insert Banetorch rules here]
If I'm entirely blunt? Yes, that is clunky.

One problem is that you're trying to override a lot of other rules which is very bad for interactions between different player's characters. Let's suppose a servitor gets hit with it. The player gave the servitor Force of Will to represent its complete lack of emotion*... except, apparently, now.
*It might potentially have self-preservation routines, but that's the difference between the emotional "Oh frak, oh frak, oh frak, that's a daemon prince" of a character failing a Nv test and the logical "This combat situation is non-optimal. Analysis: Withdraw to safe distance" of a character intentionally using their actions to move away.

Also, no matter how intimidating a weapon it may be, it does not merit an area-of-effect, heavily upgraded version of Terrifying. Angron himself manifesting might, but I think a toxin thrower needs to be a few notches lower on the "brown trousers" scale than that.

Personally, I'd just penalise Pinning and throw on the fleeing effect from Terrifying if a character fails their test badly enough. (With an acceptance that either Nerves of Steel or Force of Will would negate these effects as normal. Even if I don't personally agree that every character out there who has these skills should, it's far more of a mess if I assume none of them should).
I'd also possibly require characters within, say, 5 yards to test for Pinning as well (although probably without the fleeing effect), even if not a nominated target.

The lasting terror effects are likely to be a bookkeeping nuisance. I'd also predict it throwing up lots of oddities. (If a character can clearly see the user is reloading the Banetorch, why is it still so scary? Why is a hardy and stoic character who only got some minor chemical corrosion to a bionic arm apparently more intimidated than a weak-willed scribe who was nearby when someone got completely dissolved? Do we now have to keep pre-measuring to find out if the character is within range?) This would seem to be one of the many cases where it's probably better if the rules serve to guide, rather than compel, behaviour (what I'd call roleplay and ruleplay). If the weapon's rules are sufficiently nasty to be hit by, that itself will serve to encourage characters to avoid getting hit by it.

The rules also get into minutae. At only a -2 penalty to their toughness per hit, a character is very likely to be taken out of the game before that the level of toxin in their system actually adds up to anything significant.
Anything that needs to come across as really toxic is better represented by a flat modifier (and, indeed, I'm planning on introducing a "toxicity" modifier in IRE in order that not all poisons are equal).

Other than that, I've a feeling it might actually be unnecessarily brutal in terms of how much damage it could potentially do, particularly as it's focusing large amounts of damage on just one location.
While the description of the chemicals does state the victim's blood boils in their veins, this does not necessarily mean it should work like the Blood Boil power (which has some of the highest possible Difficulties for a reason). The power's name is actually metaphorical, as the description states that it's the victim's blood pressure and pulse that hit lethal levels - which is a far more realistic explanation for its in-game effects, but "Blood Hypertension" doesn't sound as good.

It might sound like I'm being overly critical (and I perhaps am), but I will say you've picked a very hard weapon to try to translate to a narrative game. A terror weapon has got to be horrific to hit by, but that's damn hard to get across without really messing with the game balance.

I'll look into it, but I suspect that whatever I come up with will be at least partially offset by being pretty damn dangerous to use (in accordance with the fluff about how the clouds of gas can often end up drifting over friendly troops, making the fielding of Bane Wolves something of a morale liability).

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The Melta one I would have to really think about due to the sheer power involved.
I think I'd divert from a completely direct port of the 40K rules (which seem to just be a blast version of the Multi-melta, which is not something Inquisitor needs. At all.), and instead just end up combining elements of flamer and meltagun rules - broadly, a flamer with a high base damage but a very fast fall-off with distance.

But as far as powerful weapons, I find you often have to start thinking outside the box. For example, my Wraithcannon rules inflict injury levels directly (ignoring the target's Base Injury and armour); as such, it poses a serious threat to Space Marines, without necessarily being an insta-kill on more mortal characters.

I've also penned some rules for Titan-class weapons, although those are more of an exercise (when I finally run a game with Leander, the power of her weapons will be arbitrary - as dangerous as I need them to be at that moment) and intentionally absolutely horrific, given that pretty much nothing in game has a reasonable argument for surviving a direct hit from a plasma cannon the size of a tank.
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Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
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Offline TallulahBelle

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #192 on: July 21, 2016, 05:17:36 AM »
Yeah I knew it was clunky when I was writing it so freely admitted it. Honstly the reason for writing the banetorch is because it's precisely the type of thing I can see being deployed in Inquisitor, things that are so far beyond the norm, things that are at their core no different from the weapons of the Archenemy. Something some Faceless Enforcer would hose down a protesting mob with where the deployment actually strengthens the cause

it's a weapon I would use as a plot point to be honest but want rules so when the players see it in use they go holy Feth this thing is horrific and really make them think just how fair will their characters go for Him on Terra. plots like The sect that desire to spread panic and terror as a means to make humanity stronger through fear plotting chemical attacks as a plot point with Istavaanian's trying to allow the attack to happen as more Puritan's try to keep the rule of law and Biologis magi try to take a sample for testing.

you're criticism is really helpful though and my justification/responses/requests for idea on how to do what I am wanting with a better written ruleset are here in order

1. The Fearsome/terrifying portion of the weaponset. The logic/reasoning for this was based on a couple of things. Firstly the fact I HATE how Force of Will and Nerves of steel are prevalent in campaigns I've tried to start usually along with a justification that as Inqusitorial retinue they have come into contact with all sorts of horrifying things and survives so have become jaded and unflappable to the extent not even a Bloodthirster manifesting out of their partner during an intimate encounter will scare or shock them. I take the conclave view, that the average Inquisitor is brave but not suicidally so and still feel terror at times and NOS or FOW better represent things that cannot feel fear. Plus I hate how that the Arbite Information gatherer who is fearsome because of his reputation as a brutal torturer will be less afraid of a Deamon Prince of Khorne than the guardsman stood next to him simply because he frightens other people.

I was trying to find some way to fix the issue that would negate the Terror Weapon aspect in my local game. I wasn't really sure about giving it pinning since... I wanted to emphasis the HOLY [EXCOMMUNICATE] I NEED AWAY FROM HERE NOW. aspect that things like this sort of weapon would have and are depicted as having within the Universe. (Commisars executing whole squads to prevent those witnessing the weapon's big brother fired in combat from fleeing etc)

as for the reloading, I guess I missed that and assumed people would take that as read really that when the thing wasn't capable of firing that it wouldn't cause that sort of terror and it would be the perfect time to take it out of action.

looking back over it, it commits the sin of forcing a reaction rather than allowing roleplay, the effect that I want is for people to be shocked by the horrific reaction that it causes in its target but not so much paralysing fear(which is what I view pinning as you curl up un cover waiting for the fusillade to die down) but the deployment of the weapon forces a rout as people panic focusing on getting out of range self preservation and the lizard brain kicking in

2. yeah you're right it would be a pig to keep a note of but I wasn't sure how best to reflect that repeated exposure to the toxin would make the thing more effective and kind of liked the idea of it eating away at bionic lungs and gas masks. some sort of flat modifier like -25 would make more sense. 

3. The effect, I kind of envisaged the BaneWolf's toxin to be something akin to either a more focused version of Chlorine Gas which can douse a person or a unit rather than being indiscriminately used to blanket an entire battlefield.  Something designed to leave the poor sod drowning in his own blood as the blood vessels in the lungs are being eaten away by this horrific bioweapon. Blood Boil was to my sleep deprived mind the easiest way I thought to represent that.  tiny blood vessels in the lungs torn open, the blood instead of being carefully guided through the gas exchange pathway it is instead collecting in the organ.

I tried to set it up that the weapon is not something that can be used indiscriminately, a very low amount of shots, a large reload time and probably didn't do a very good job to be honest. I do want to fix it so it's not as clunky or horrifying but still to have that sense of palpable horror.


Would something like this make more sense/be less overpowered/a pain? Hopefully you kind of get what I want to do with it now and can help a little.

Type: Heavy Range: 8 Mode: Flame Acc – Damage 1point to the hit  location of armour * Shots 3 RLD 6 WT 60

The Banetorch fires a powerful caustic gel that clings to armour and skin, designed as a means to deter rioters by giving them a more immediate problem to face whilst simultaneously making them easier to track down based on the toxins distinctive treatment requirements and weakened by the damage to their armour.

The banetorch fire's as a flamer but a location roll is made as normal shooting, like a  Models hit by the toxin take a toughness test at -25, if failed models will suffer a bleeding effect to D3 random locations and will take 1 level of injury to 1 location covered by armour/bionics (if more than one location fits this description roll at random) 

My idea here is that the bleeding represents the internal bleeding caused by the toxin gel through skin contact/getting in through the eyes and other orifices, Internal bleeding causing long term issues, the level of injury caused by the acidic nature of the gel actually eating way at the armour being worn. The armour/bionic corroding and dissolving, the tainted metal acid mixture dripping onto the skin causing distinctive burns that the enforcers can use later to track down people they exposed to the BaneTorch. the fear reaction now something left for the players to decide how they react. It's more dice rolling however it isn't an oh dear god death weapon but the risk of losing armour would make people reconsider getting close possibly?


I'm hoping that the explanation of what I want it to do would give you a few ideas? the Melta I agree with you on that a direct port isn't something the game could handle though would be good for cracking marines with. Leander fills me with dread to face to be honest, I can think of one thing MAAAYBE that could take the hit and that's a couple of the necron NPC's I have seen over the years (well they would get back up afterwards..... eventually anyway.) I'm assuming the fact that most models would be a greasy smear on the map would stop things like Jax's regeneration from having any effect or similar powers.pass

 Maybe a Deamonhost with Impervious if only due to the +10points to injury total cap on single hits and that each hit would only do one level of injury. though I suspect your VMB will do multiple hits per attack  or possibly something with Instability cast at the time of attack maybe*

*not trying to powergame it just genuinely interested in how you are going to stat her.


Thanks for the help and the fascinating discussion about hypervelocity BB guns. As a marshal at my local site I can SAFELY SAY that doesn't pass chrono even with an MED!  ;D

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #193 on: July 21, 2016, 10:11:10 PM »
Firstly the fact I HATE how Force of Will and Nerves of steel are prevalent in campaigns I've tried to start
While I agree that it's often not justified on a character, trying to second-guess which characters should and shouldn't have it is a bit of a mess.

I plan on revisiting the fear system in IRE to try to more accurately establish why characters are scary.
- If the character has a dangerous reputation, then any Nerve tests he causes have a penalty.
- If a character is just straight up unnerving to be around, then other characters take a hit to their Nv in the vicinity, regardless of the source.
- If a character is scary because he can obviously tear you limb from limb if you get too close, then getting or staying close inside his melee range requires a Nv test. (Think how the Fearsome/Terrifying rules actually work, rather than how they're usually applied. Expect to see this on characters like Space Marines and Orks. In this case, the cancellation makes sense, as that big burly Ork has a lot less reason to be scared of charging a Space Marine than a Guardsman does).

I'm obviously going to have to revise FoW at the same time, given the system it's based on is changing.
I'm not sure I'll be changing NoS (given IRE is trying avoid invalidating everything) although I've had a thought about splitting it into a tiered skill where tier 1 is a re-roll, and tier 2 means the character auto-passes, but has to test Initiative if they want to fail. (They're so indifferent to danger that finding cover is no longer just not fighting instinct, but a conscious decision).

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Would something like this make more sense/be less overpowered/a pain? Hopefully you kind of get what I want to do with it now and can help a little.
It's a lot better. Its effect in game is going to be hard to predict, as that's partly dependent on how players react to it, but it's not going to be a rules nuisance.

If I still have an issue, I'm not sure it entirely fits the role you're proposing (I'm not sure weapons that dissolve armour are a primary concern for dealing with riots), and I'd probably personally seek to nail down a more consistent description of what the Chem Cannon is to start with.

On one hand, its background describes it attacking flesh and ceramite. On the other, the rules are ineffective against Terminator armour (despite it being primarily armoured with Ceramite) and it can't even touch vehicles. Personally, I think the background version has something of the "universal solvent" problem (A scientist develops a chemical that can dissolve anything. What does he keep it in?).

I think if I were distilling the idea into RIA, I'd cut down the description of it being as toxic, acidic AND virulent (so any Hollywood chemist can tell you it's definitely green) and instead cook up a bunch of different toxins and a bunch of different acids. (I mean rules, I'm not going all Walter White here).
You've got the opening for things between tear gas, nerve toxins, chemicals that are corrosive to skin, stuff that eats clothing... no wait, that one's a teen boy's fantasy. But still, separating those effects out a bit lets them all be effective individually without the overall effect being overwhelming.

Those can then all be different potential ammunitions for a fairly generic "chemical thrower" weapon (rather than specific examples), which is a little truer to the RIA approach than getting too specific.

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Leander fills me with dread to face to be honest, I can think of one thing MAAAYBE that could take the hit and that's a couple of the necron NPC's I have seen over the years (well they would get back up afterwards..... eventually anyway.)
Well, she's not at all intended as something that characters directly fight. Really, her main purpose is to be an imposing display piece. (With a secondary role of helping the players feel like they're part of a bigger story, in a way that getting fire support from something like a Leman Russ wouldn't).

Mostly, she's going to be something the characters will support, be supported by or need to secure support from. There might be some scenarios where the characters have to work around her, but never will any scenario expect that PCs will be taking fire, unless they're doing something seriously silly.

Even in cases where characters may be working against the characters who are working with Leander, Princeps Rogen to an extent considers that kind of thing an internal Inquisition dispute, and isn't likely to get too heavily involved. And that's assuming she even has time to get involved; Titans, even scout titans, aren't called in for a minor skirmish, so she'll often be engaging threats off table.

And in the event that characters should find themselves getting fired on, it's very unlikely to be a direct hit from the main weapons; it's more likely to be fire from the chin-mounted multi-lasers (which serve as a defensive weapon to preserve main weapon ammunition), or maybe splash damage (on a sliding scale of how stupid I think the characters are being).

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I'm assuming the fact that most models would be a greasy smear on the map would stop things like Jax's regeneration from having any effect or similar powers.
As far as Jax, dying stops her regeneration on game timescales. Her blood is a catalyst for her regeneration, so extreme bloodloss or damage to the heart or brain slows her regeneration to less than 1% of its normal rate. That said, her regeneration is still a very formidable warp-fueled effect. I'm not quite sure I'd call it psychic, as it's an unconscious effect with no apparent mechanism (making it somewhat akin to Crotalid migration), but she routinely breaches conservation of mass by regrowing large parts of her body, and her soul and mind seem to remain entirely intact through death.
(It also serves as a limiting factor that stops her lost body parts trying to regenerate into clones of her. In cases of massive trauma, her regeneration seems to mostly work on the largest remaining part*).

A direct hit from the Plasma Blastgun would definitely put her out of the game but, in the long term, she'd survive; with the power of her mutation, there really doesn't need to be anything much left of her.

* Which is not necessarily the part including her head. She's yet to be fully decapitated as of Conclave present day, but it's going to be a bit of a surprise for her when she does; probably waking up completely bald (her hair grows fast, but nowhere near as fast as her regeneration) with her own head in her lap.

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Maybe a Deamonhost with Impervious if only due to the +10points to injury total cap on single hits and that each hit would only do one level of injury. though I suspect your VMB will do multiple hits per attack  or possibly something with Instability cast at the time of attack maybe*
Well, as far as the Daemonhost, none of Leander's main weapons do single hits.

The Plasma blastgun is a blast weapon, as is the Turbo-Laser* (although not a standard fit-out), and the Inferno gun (again not standard) is a flamer. And then the Vulcan is a full auto blast weapon** and would need all*** the dice if I were to use standard shooting rules.

* While it is a purely energy weapon (unlike the Plasma cannon, it's firing no actual physical matter) and the beam diameter isn't that great, that much energy is going to explosively vaporise the point of impact. (Even so, my version is still more restrained than the WH40K version, which I believe gets a 5" template)
** The Solemne pattern Vulcan fires a different round to the Mars pattern it was originally based off, both with a much higher muzzle velocity and with a fuse that's capable of various airburst, delayed detonation or standard impact. The downside is a much lower ammunition capacity (~5000 rounds rather than ~14000), but when I was writing the fluff the effects of a self-propelled variant of the Bofors 3P ammunition loaded into the GAU-8 Avenger sounded sufficiently over the top to be a titan weapon.
*** Not literally. But it'd still be a lot.


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*not trying to powergame it just genuinely interested in how you are going to stat her.
Mostly, I'm not. Her power is so arbitrarily high that she's functionally invincible in game. Her armour can shrug off anti-tank munitions (and that's even if you get past the void shields) and her main guns can turn Land Raiders to molten slag. Trying to telepathically influence Helane is to try to control one of the strongest-willed people in the Imperium, plus open your mind to a furiously powerful machine intellect.

She is both immovable object and unstoppable force. The vast majority of the rules writing I've done is just an exercise in curiosity. Most of them I don't expect to use in game (other than perhaps the suggestions about what happens to characters who try and expose their mind to a Titan's machine spirit, which I'm guessing someone will try at some point).

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Thanks for the help and the fascinating discussion about hypervelocity BB guns. As a marshal at my local site I can SAFELY SAY that doesn't pass chrono even with an MED!  ;D
Well, you couldn't pick it up on a standard chrony anyway. Aside from that the chrony would probably discard a velocity that high as erroneous, the muzzle flash is a huge plume of optically dense plasma that most chronies couldn't see through.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

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Offline TallulahBelle

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Re: The Revised Inquisitor Armoury
« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2016, 09:48:47 AM »
GAU-8 firing bofors 3P at 4-6000rpm... That's something il see in my nightmares thanks for that.

The intelectual curiosity side of the argument appeals to me and... As for open ng your mind bearing in mind there are cases known of Warhounds consuming the mind of their princeps and over time a titans machine spirit begins to influence your actions as you spend more and more time connected you start thinking of you the titan and you the person as the same thing. Based on that a titans machine spirit will or could possibly possess people whether they could control the person in anyway or its just a means means for the dominant mind control of the titan isn't something im sure of. Machine empathy could go... Badly. Whether that's an immortal god engine of war has control of your character or your characters head has had egg in a microwave experience is up for conjecture.


I get what your saying about the armpur dissolving being not a riot weapon thing but.. Iv had to tone it down to get it usable and based on the description would probably have that affect on metal plus it would give people in INQ a reason to back off put of range ro represent my fear of the weapon idea through RP.  and well I think the imperium is probably a dark enough place that spraying a few thousand outerhive scum or a few thousand mutants with a weapon that causes chemical burns and eats through your lungs wouldn't be an put of the norm response tp the rioting and the shock value of watching the bloke next to ypu puke up parts of his lungs as he dies on a pool pf bile blood and a burning stench would probably co vince ypu to STFU and do as your told.



Now chronoing your hypervelocity bb gun I would probably just use the chrono we have set up for gas multishot shotguns abd P* guns where like the air rifles ypu shoot through the chrono from a 3' distance away accounting for the gas venting and similar. We use the same chrono redwood airsoft use in their videos for that type of gun. Still a hypervelocity airsoft rifle would be great for non hit takers .... That's probably legally a firearm in the uk being something in the region of 44 ft/lb of energy and so a sec1 firearm unless its semi auto then its sec5 that's terrifying and kind of cool. The energy cost per shot must be huge compared to a standard chemical detonation if I remember anything from gcse physics.