Author Topic: Using a Commissar in Inq.  (Read 13082 times)

foxphoenix135

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Using a Commissar in Inq.
« on: December 23, 2009, 07:56:23 PM »
I just thought I would share the first character I attempted to create: I also would love it if somebody crunched the numbers for his "ready reckoning" and can tell me if I was off or not! Without further ado, here is my sample Commissar (created based on an Inquisitor):

CHARACTER PROFILE---------------------------  Commissar Mathiam Krault
\\\\\\\
BIOGRAPHY:
   Commissar Mathiam Krault was born the son of a wealthy Imperial Guard general on the post-apocalyptic planet of Alascadia. His mother had fallen prey to an attempt on the General's life, when the ill-trained assassin mistook her for his target in the darkened bedchambers, as the young Mathiam was just turning six standard years old. His father's regiment was called upon to serve in the war against the Tyranid Hive Fleet Gargantuan that was invading a sector nearby, and fate left the boy orphaned soon after.
   Due to his father's glorious efforts in his final battle, the boy was admitted into the Schola Progenium. Soon after his admittance he was inducted into the Commissariat because of his innate grasp of oratory manipulation and inspiration. His scores in the combat subjects were passing, earning the young boy his place among the Imperium's Political Officers.
   His graduation gift was a particularly rare and special item: the Powerfist his father wore in his final battle with the Tyranid onslaught.
   This is his first assignment upon graduating, and he is eager to show his worth, as well as avenge his father's memory. There is no battle he will shirk from, no task he will leave undone, and no man he will leave behind... as long as they remain loyal to the Golden Throne, that is.

STATISTICS:

WS   BS   S   T   I   Wp   Sg   Nv   Ld
75    78  69 67 88  92   85   92    84
Cost: 89

ABILITIES:
Right-Handed, Leader, Force of Will, Rock-steady Aim, Deflect Shot
Cost: 20

RANGED WEAPONS:
Name         Type   Rng   Mode                  Acc   Dmg          Shots   Rld   Wgt   Cost
Bolt Pistol  Pistol    J    Single/semi (2)       -     2D10+4       12      2      25       5

CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS:
Name         Reach     Damage     Parry Penalty     Cost
Powerfist      1          2D10+5        -25.00%            9

ARMOR:
   Reflective Carapace torso 6 points, Flak 3 points all others, Refractor field.
Cost: 33

OTHER EQUIPMENT: (Cost)
   4 Bolt Pistol reloads ( 8 ), Lasersight ( 5 )

TOTAL POINT COST:  --169



And there you have it! Any input would be appreciated!

Offline Kaled

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 08:31:37 PM »
Why use the Ready Reckoner? It doesn't really help you build 'balanced' characters.  If you need help choosing stats, take a look at the thread on the 'Conclave standard' character - quite a few of those look a touch high... I'd also drop some of those skills; Deflect Shot and Force of Will for a start. He also seems rather over-equipped, fine for a battlefield but a bit ott for the sorts of situations he'd find himself in in Inquisitor.
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 09:41:30 PM »
I also would love it if somebody crunched the numbers for his "ready reckoning" and can tell me if I was off or not!
IMO, the ready reckoner is one of the worst things the game ever got laden with. It gives people a false sense of "this model is fair" - when actually, two characters with the same RR "points value" can be entirely uneven on the table. It shouldn't be treated with any seriousness whatsoever.

Next step... Personally, as you've used the "back of the book" profiles, it goes mostly without saying I'm going to find your profile considerably over the top. (Most people around here judge based on the stat descriptions near the front of the rulebook)

All of your stats are either above 70, or incredibly close. In my own opinion, stats above 70 should be applied carefully, and sparingly - for most stats, 70 or above represents an exceptional level in its own right, and even though our Inquisitor characters are pretty special, they can't be masters of all trades.
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foxphoenix135

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 02:24:13 AM »
Awesome! This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. So you guys don't use the randomized "back of the book" stat values? That makes sense... Yeah reading the comparisons I now realize a lot of these values are way too high.  Some of them make sense being well above-average (i.e. willpower and nerve) for an Imperial Commissar, so they may stay, but things like his weapon and ballistic skills are just too high..

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 03:29:12 AM »
So you guys don't use the randomized "back of the book" stat values?
I'm not aware of any of the forum regulars using randomised profiles. The problem is that random stat-lines are exceptionally unlikely to fit the character background.

I myself tend to sit down and work through the stat-line value by value, giving them the character stats I think are appropriate for them:

- Inquisitor Skoll has spent his entire life around guns, understands the physics of firearms well (he trained as a gunsmith in his youth), and keeps himself in practice - he therefore deserves a high Ballistic Skill of 73.
- Frost is a 5 foot tall female, so she can't be too strong. She is however a mercenary for whom being in lax physical condition could be fatal, so she regularly trains. She gets a reasonable Strength 55.

That's the kind of way I work at things - others around here do similar things, although there is sometimes a certain amount of difference in opinion about what skill level a certain stat value represents.
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foxphoenix135

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 04:57:23 AM »
Ok, that makes sense. I'm not very familiar with the whole "Choose your own stats" aspect, as my last RPG with a character creation system was Mechwarrior, 3rd Ed. It had a character path similar to what I have heard Dark Heresy has.

This is what I adjusted the stats to:

STATISTICS:
WS  BS   S    T   I   Wp   Sg   Nv   Ld
62   68  53  54 77  82    71   72   76
Cost: 69

ABILITIES:
Right-Handed, Leader, Force of Will
Cost: 10

Making the total cost of the charter 125 points.

The idea behind my warband might be worth explaining. I will do so now...

The Commissar is to his warband what an Inquisitor is to his retinue: the absolute leader and hard-willed combat veteran. A commissar does not carry the absolute authority of the Inquisition, but it is pretty close. As a political representative of the Imperium, he carries the authority to execute dissidents and the weak-willed traitors that would defy the authority of the Golden Throne.

The Commissar is likely to have a bodyguard or two, if he has enough political clout. This kind of individual is a paid soldier, and thus delegates little time to activities outside of keeping their combat skills sharp. They also may be lacking in personality, and do little more than what they are told. Sometimes there is a break in this stereotype, but it is rare.

In addition to bodyguards, the Commissar may have an adjutant. The types of these adjutants vary, but common roles may include administrative assistants, communications officers, and militant advisors. The commissar may also take a battlefield medic as his adjutant, as the two fight a similar battle both in and  out of the field: The medic for the body, the commissar for the soul.

Commissars are not only assigned to battlefield duties. As political officers, they can operate a bit more overtly than the forces of the Inquisition. As part of the Ecclesiarchy, he has contacts or associates on nearly every Imperial world.




Any other suggestions?

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 05:30:10 AM »
Any other suggestions?
Well, for practical purposes, if a Commissar is not assigned to a regiment to be supplied with bolt ammunition, they'd probably switch to a more practical ranged weapon - perhaps an autopistol or laspistol.
I've rambled on boltguns before, but the simple version is that bolters are what you carry into a warzone, not what you carry on the off-chance of ending up in a scrap  - many Inquisitor scenarios are chance meetings, so characters wouldn't automatically come entirely prepared with heavy battlefield equipment.

Similarly, I'd probably also cut him back to just a powersword - a powerfist is horribly impractical, even in combat. Same as with the bolters above, you have to question why a character would carry a large bulky weapon around all the time.

(The above suggestions are also partly because the combination of bolt and power weapons is rather nasty!)

I might also be wary of combining too much armour with forcefields - the two together can be nigh on impenetrable, and unfair. But I guess you're not too over the top.

However, depending on whether you see your commissar as a political officer or a soldier "off the field"...
Based on how I would stat a soldier (I should note that I don't rank "fit human" and "soldier" as the same, like the rulebook does), I'd think the Commissar deserves a S & T increase - possibly as much as 10 points each.

Another skill wouldn't be too much of an issue either, so if you did want to keep the Rock Steady Aim or something...

Other than that, I think it's a pretty fair character now.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

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Offline Kaled

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 10:58:51 AM »
Other things that spring to mind are, how does he get around? What brings him into the sorts of scenarios we see in this game? Is he a bit of a wandering troubleshooter sent in by the powers that be? Or is it just bad luck that he comes up against the Inquisition so often?  I think the weapons are a bit ott still - fine for a battlefield Commissar, but if he's not assigned battlefield duties then something less overt would be better.

Also, why are you calculating his points? Just as we don't tend to use the random generators, neither do we use the point values. They're unnecessary as the game isn't about perfectly balanced warbands coming into conflict, it's the GM's job to keep things 'fair'.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

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Offline Tullio

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 03:12:35 PM »
I'd personally tweak the Sg and I down by ten or fifteen points, other than that those stats look more or less alright for a Commissar who's kept himself in peak battlefield condition.

As to why he's in the game, you could go down the rogue Commissar route. Mad enough to actually think his remit extends beyond the Munitorum, he's taken it upon himself to root out what he considers to be heresy, perhaps? I seem to recall that was the basis for a short Eisenhorn story, although that didn't include a Commissar.

Tullio

foxphoenix135

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2009, 06:35:49 PM »
Ok, I'll quit calculating the points then if they have no real determining factor in fairness...

Also, I know the weapons are still OTT, but the best I can do is drop the bolt pistol in favor of a laspistol. The powerfist is an integral piece of equipment to the character (mainly due to the model I have in mind). This is why I opted for only a single additional talent, to balance out the powerfist a bit.

The stats could still use a little bit more adjustment:

STATISTICS:
WS  BS   S    T   I   Wp   Sg   Nv   Ld
59   63  49  53 71  82    68   72   76

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 07:46:09 PM »
I don't think you really needed to adjust them any further down. Sure, if you imagine the character in such a fashion, go for it, but don't feel that the last stat-line was "overpowered".

They're unnecessary as the game isn't about perfectly balanced warbands coming into conflict.
That it isn't. And as I said earlier, even if it were about perfectly balanced warbands, the Ready Reckoner's system is not balanced enough so that two characters of equal "performance" are of equal RR points.

Anyway, I got bored a few years back (probably about five years ago) and decided to write a spreadsheet that calculated RR points. I still have it around, so for an experiment, I'm going to throw Inquisitor Skoll at it.

193 RR points, apparently. But those points come from things that don't equate to all that much on the battlefield. For example, his legendary Runesword is not worth 3 times a powersword, save perhaps if fighting a daemon. 24 points also go on a not very heavily used* Wyrd:Telekinesis power, and a psi-booster to go with it.
*A lot of the time, the only use is to make him a psyker, making his runesword usable - or sometimes, allowing him to resist powers targeted at him... or equally, just making him vulnerable to anti-psyker attacks.

Then he's got a smorgasbord of assorted trinkets - a flashlight, a lighter, a combi-tool, etc... which are all items that hardly ever get used on the table, but which still add up. One of his "skills" is only any use if another (specific) one of my characters is on the table...

In the end, even in spite of his extra "points", I wouldn't fancy his chances against the 169 point Commissar at the start - most of Skoll's stats are lower, his weapons less powerful and he has less armour (and no forcefield), so it's rather obvious the two aren't equivalent.

Anyway, that's enough on how the RR points aren't a good measure of a character's power.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

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foxphoenix135

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 08:02:23 PM »
Here is a picture of the model I am basing this character off of, painted by yours truly. I am quite pleased with it, and consider it one of my better paintjobs (since I am not all that great to begin with).


Offline Kaled

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 08:16:54 PM »
Also, I know the weapons are still OTT, but the best I can do is drop the bolt pistol in favor of a laspistol. The powerfist is an integral piece of equipment to the character (mainly due to the model I have in mind).
The problem you have is, IMHO, one of the problems with Inq28 for players coming straight from 40k - they're tempted to just use models straight from their army. Your character is equipped for 40k - he's both over-armoured and over-armed for Inquisitor; you need to get away from the whole 40k paradigm. A good start would be to reinvent your Commissar model - as long as you're using a 40k model you'll probably find it difficult to stop thinking in terms of what's appropriate for 40k and to get in the Inquisitor mindset.

The reason Molotov's Inq28 characters work is that they're quite different to standard 40k models - and that's why your character doesn't work for me.  Your description of the different roles Commissars perform is good background ideas for a character so it seems a shame to me that your character and model is straight from 40k.

P.S. Nice model btw!  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 08:51:14 PM by Kaled »
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

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foxphoenix135

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2009, 09:13:24 PM »
Alright, thanks for all the feedback! This topic has been most helpful. You are definitely right, Kaled, in the fact that I am stuck in the 40k mentality. I'll go back to the drawing board and design some characters from scratch... maybe in the future I will find a suitably-armed commissar model to use. Until then, maybe I'll stick to the forces of the Inquisition. I have some of the original Daemonhunter storm troopers, as well as many different forms of guardsmen, in addition to miniatures I have from other game systems that I can convert.

So what is the general consensus on Plasma weaponry? I have lots of plasma pistol bits on hand for converting, but I am somewhat reluctant to use them because they are supposed to be one of the rarer weapon types.

Finally, I am designing a kind of las-"smg" to use on my converted model. Any suggestions for a fair stat-line for such a weapon? I would like it to fire multiple rounds, without taking too much of a damage hit, but it can be expected for it's accuracy to take a hit. The other downside would be that it would burn through ammo faster, but for fluffy/modeling reasons I am ok with that.

Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Using a Commissar in Inq.
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2009, 09:30:23 PM »
40k models are designed as battlefield models - people you'd find equipped for immediate combat, not people wandering around in the dark shadows of the Imperium.

Picture yourself as that Commissar - you're on a mission as a political officer, weeding out corruption, and you're constantly encumbering yourself with a heavy powerfist? You're forever without the use of your dominant right hand, just so that on the small chance you should get attacked, you've got a stupidly powerful weapon.

... sorry, I don't see it.

Quote
So what is the general consensus on Plasma weaponry?
My thoughts are to be wary of them. Not just because of the rarity, but also for the above reason - they're bulky weapons that you'd probably not want to constantly have to carry around.

Quote
Finally, I am designing a kind of las-"smg" to use on my converted model. Any suggestions for a fair stat-line for such a weapon?
Try checking out my Revised Inquisitor Armoury - it's still in Beta, but the Lasgun section was added in the last update.

Lasweapons are built up from a list of parts, with literal thousands of possible combinations and statlines. There's more coming of course, but you shouldn't be too strained to find something of the right sort of feel.

Also, if you do decide to go with that plasma weapon, there is also a section for plasma weapons - well, most Imperial weapons to be honest. (Alien weapons are coming later on...)
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles