Inquisitor Marco Robert Skoll

[RobSkib]

Wyrd... I have precisely 1 Wyrd character, and this is he - it's not like I use Wyrds left, right and centre. I've got enough conventional psykers I think I've reasonably earned the right to use a Wyrd.

Echoing the more constructive comments of others regarding lowering some of the stats, I'd say that overall he's justified his 'expertise' in these various regions, but not by the 70s that he is currently branding. In my circle, the background you've written him would grant him those stats in the mid 60s, high 60s for the best one.

However, what I disagree with is your comment on making him a wyrd. I've used wyrd strength on a cultist, and telepathy on a telepath, but I don't think using it for your Inquisitor and saying "cuz I havn't used it yet" flies with me. I like the power that he has, feeling stuff with his mind, but I'm not sure wyrd is the best representation of it on the game. If I were GMing, I would definitely allow him to 'feel mass' without any tests as if he were touching it himself, but moving things with his mind I would argue would require tests and penalties relating to his degree of skill. Maybe give him a +20 bonus to any telekinesis attempts due to his innate proficiency, but certainly not Wyrd levels of power.

[MarcoSkoll]

...but I don't think using it for your Inquisitor and saying "cuz I havn't used it yet" flies with me.

That's not my reason for using the ability.

My "cuz I havn't used it yet" point is that that I'm not averse to suffering the penalties to psychic powers - I don't particularly like them when my psyker's brain is dribbling out of his nose, but I've not taken Wyrd to get "risk-free telekinesis".

I've taken the skill because I wanted to try and develop my ideas of what a Wyrd actually IS. Someone whose power is so innate that the universe is but an extension of their body. They feel their surroundings. They are their environment.
I didn't make him a Wyrd because he could feel mass - I made him feel mass because he's a Wyrd.

Theoretically, I can write up Mass Awareness as a second power. Technically, there's nothing that says a Wyrd can't have multiple powers (indeed, the rulebook description as much as says it's possible), and perhaps it would actually make more sense to put it under the psychics section.

~~~~~

But either way, I'm getting very mixed responses to him. I've got some stat and ability fixes to make, sure - but quite a lot of the criticisms seem to be questioning the core reasoning I've used in parts of the background.
If this is going to persist across the entire warband...

I'll break out Silva's profile and background, and see what responses I get to her. I'll have to assess based on her feedback whether it's worth actually trying to bring this warband, or whether I'll reduce the Spring Conclave to a flame war if I do.

~~~~~

On a lighter note, who did spot the various references?

[RobSkib]

On a lighter note, who did spot the various references?

Your references are always cryptic at best

I see what you mean, using Wyrd makes sense, but my real problem is whether you'd still apply the usual penalties. One of the criticisms you've received is that you've taken a lot of equipment and skills for a 'risk-free' aspect of the game, I think you should retain the risks of fluffing a telekinesis test, but the Wyrd allows him to test on a Wp of 100. Maybe limit the Wp damage to a temporary D10 for the game.

Have you played with him much? I've found that the best moments are the risk/reward situations, where you know the game hangs in the balance of telekinetically sealing the exit of the laboratory with a cryostasis chamber, and Skoll needs a 35 to muster the strength to pull it off the wall and fling it across the room. Succeed, and the exit is barred and Skolls companions arrest the cornered deviant. Fail, and the mutant emissary escapes into the sewers.

I've done it before - in a risk-free zone, why would you resort to making tough gambles in victory or defeat situations when you can just whip out a gun and be secure in the knowledge that you'll hit with nigh on every shot.

I'm not sure about others, but I don't think the background needs to change at all, however I do think the stats need to be adjusted to represent his skills relative to other people's Inquisitor circles. Strength in the 70s I would recommend for knuckle-headed Catachan veterans for example.

[MarcoSkoll]

Have you played with him much?

Well, there is a reason why I use the name for the forums...

I've not found him particularly risk-free. Sure, he's one hell of a shot, but that's not to say he never misses. His sword is nominally impressive (although, as I pointed out earlier, less so than a power sword, which would not be hard to justify for an Inquisitor), but his record in hand-to-hand is variable at best.

I would agree that he's above the Conclave standard and needs his stats toned back to varying degrees, but the whole Wyrd thing has been a core of the character since day one. I've tried to better the explanations I use for Wyrd powers over time (you're reading something like version three); While I'll accept that perhaps the explanations are perhaps not what someone else imagines a Wyrd to be like, I'd like to know where people think I've got it wrong - what do they think a Wyrd should be?

I hate to use the "It's in the rulebook" excuse, as we all know there are things in the rulebook that should only see the table under exceptional circumstances, but it's enough to demonstrate that Wyrds do exist.
If I wanted to take a bolter, people could reasonably expect some justification. My question now is what justification do people think is necessary for the Wyrd ability?

I think you should retain the risks of fluffing a telekinesis test, but the Wyrd allows him to test on a Wp of 100. Maybe limit the Wp damage to a temporary D10 for the game.

I'm prepared to accept that kind of thing if people think that Wyrd should still inherently contain some (although obviously lesser) risk.

But personally, I'm not all that convinced by the fact that failure on a (conventional) psychic test almost invariably results in brain damage - surely "inconsequential failures" should be more common than the rather rare event of failing by 9 points or less?

Your references are always cryptic at best

They're not THAT cryptic this time.  Yeah, the references I make in names are usually fairly obscure, but what I've done here is rather less subtle.

But to explain...

- The Tannhauser Gate is lifted from Rutger Hauer's dying monologue in Blade Runner.

- The "Human nature" quote is adapted from the closing words from the Dark Side of the Moon album, along with a few words that were recorded, but eventually omitted from the album. Pink Floyd quotes are common amongst my characters

- The quote on the Inquisitor's escape is taken from the chorus from the Nightwish track "Bye Bye Beautiful", and is indeed sung by the person from who Marco takes his first name...

Also, I have noticed that this is a very wyrd post.

[Alyster Wick]

I will go on record here and now saying that this character is exactly what a wyrd should be.  It sounds as though you RP his actual telekinesis in a downplayed manner based on the background.

It's not really designed to be a psychic power, but a sense in the same way as you see, hear or taste. The reason why I've slapped some tests on it is so that it's not just "oh yeah, he can see behind himself, so you can't sneak up on him".

This makes sense and I'll go farther to say that sensing mass (when you think about it) is far different than detecting psychic signatures.  A barrel full of fuel that the mutant is standing next to in the room over doesn't have a psychic signature, but if you place a couple nice shots through the wall...

Also, the sword is perfectly fine.  There's solid background on it and the character doesn't even know all it's powers.  It sounds as though you're a pretty faithful RPer and would stick to this Marco so I don't see any problem.

On to stats. 

This is where I get a bit more critical.  It's more of something to take into account, but it seems to me as though an Inquisitor of this ordos should spend more time studying than fighting.  I know your lengthier background may mitigate this but I think it's worth considering.  He is an all around badass at the moment despite being in one of the potentially book-wormier ordos(es?).  I would personally say his stats put him in more of a power-gamer status at this point, which is fine, but since you're bringing him to a conclave event I'm just giving honest feedback.

My gut instinct is dock the WS 5-10 points, take 5 or so away from BS, drop strength 10 to 20 (I like the explanation that he augments the strength with his psychic powers but I'm saying you put game balance in front of background for this one), maybe drop toughness and give him a bit more armor (just say his robes are kevlar and give 2 armor or something), maybe drop WP a little since his wyrdness negates it anyway (give a little here so he has another vulnerability), up his sagacity a tad given the ordos, Ld is good.  I'd also say drop one of the shooting skills and make true grit conditional upon whether or not someone he cared about was in imminent danger (I think this is rather characterful).

Now I know some of those suggestions make for difficult concessions, but I think taking a few of them would make him clave ready.  At this point I'm projecting my image of him based on your background into my modifications and my image may well change if I ever read it in full, but take it or leave it.

Last suggestion, and this is completely off the wall, but this wouldn't be a Wick post if it didn't have at least one bizarre idea that was completely unsolicited.  Why not drop the two shooting skills and giving him a new skill based on the idea that he utilizes his telepathic skills to guide the bullet (ala the miserable film Wanted).  No thoughts onto how this works, I just thought it would be cool and another way to highlight his wyrdness (provided the other shooting skills were dropped for balance).

Anyway, rant over.  Just thought you needed someone to be with you on a few key points/give specifics and logic on stat cutting.

[Ferran]

Reading this thread has really been quite interesting, I think it's fully revealed a "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude on your part MarcoSkoll. You claim to want feedback, but seem to be somewhat unwilling to accept much criticism - something that you've disapprovingly noted in others on several occasions. Comments that you deem disagreeable are condemned as rants. Seeing you attempt to justify your choices would be quite puzzling were one to take you at your word. He can be a wyrd because...the sword is like this because...if you read the background you'd see...Well speed 5 is fine, here's why...

That seems to be your thing - write some backstory or explanation and you (as in you MarcoSkoll, not the generic population) are justified in all of your choices. There's seems to be no consideration of balance or fairness or fun...when it comes to your own creations. The most glaring example of this mindset is your use of the term "core reasoning". The background for a character is reason, ie justification, for the power. You seem to treat your fluff as some sort of Holy Cow, a vision that can't be tampered with. I hate to be the one to tell you, but these are toy soldiers. Your fluff isn't a thesis, it's the scribblings of a gamer. You can drastically alter it with the stroke of a key and the sky won't fall. Maybe you should think about doing this sooner instead of later, that way you might have a chance of creating a decent physical representation of the character - something with at least a modicum of substance, instead of all these boring inconsequential words.

[Kaled]

Don't worry about bringing them to the Spring Conclave - they're powerful, but won't be out of place. Remember (and this goes for everyone), the GM is arbitrator of what is and isn't allowed in his game. If he decides that a character etc is too powerful, then he is within his rights to change it for the duration of his game. I don't want to see anyone arguing with the GM - his decision is final.

[Sarlen]

Mass Awareness as a Skill somehow seems a bit strange, as somebody else already said, it seems to be quite similar in effect to the Detection psychic power.

I had considered detection, but the Mass Awareness isn't designed to be specific to "mental signatures" - theoretically, Marco can see anything of mass... walls, lampposts, small furry creatures from Alpha Centuri.

It's not really designed to be a psychic power, but a sense in the same way as you see, hear or taste. The reason why I've slapped some tests on it is so that it's not just "oh yeah, he can see behind himself, so you can't sneak up on him".

I always saw Detection as an additional sense powered by psychic energies, its therefore still similar to your Mass Awareness. I haven't got any difficulties if you'd decide to bind it to your Wyrd-ability, for balancing reasons, what about increasing the difficulty of the related powers?

Just out of interest, in which way do you represent him being lacking a bit in power(at least I remember something like this in your story), up to now he seems to be a fairly strong psycher.

[Kaled]

I agree, making Mass Awareness a wyrd power seems the way to go - like Detection, it's using psychic senses to increase awareness. I see no reason for it to be a skill rather than a psychic power (IIRC I suggested similar 'Detection' alternatives for Inq2 - biomancers detecting life, pyromancers detecting heat etc).

[MarcoSkoll]

You claim to want feedback, but seem to be somewhat unwilling to accept much criticism.

If someone questions something, and I give reasons why I went in that direction, that doesn't mean I haven't accepted the criticism of how I went about representing it.

And quite frankly, these characters aren't actually all that "monstrous" compared to the profiles you've given your own characters - I do read your Warseer thread.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but these are toy soldiers.

Yeah, but they're my toy soldiers.

Just out of interest, in which way do you represent him being lacking a bit in power(at least I remember something like this in your story), up to now he seems to be a fairly strong psyker.

I've never seen Telekinesis as all that powerful an ability as written in the rulebook. The heaviest mass that can be moved with any reliability, even by a Wyrd, is perhaps equivalent to weights I could lift (literally) single handed.

Compare that to Psychic Impel, which can throw several hundred pounds of power armoured Marine around. If I wanted to represent a more powerful version of the telekinesis power, I'd start by applying modifiers such as halving the weight of objects.

[Ferran]

They're probably not monstrous. A touch of sarcasm on my part there. The point being that whilst your speed 5 super-strong, super-smart, psi-boosted, skill laden, legendary sword-wielding, wyrd marksman extraordinaire puts my equivalent character to shame, I don't go around brusquely telling people to tone down their characters.

/Having said that, I agree that Impel is OP and should have a target-based modifier.

[Kaled]

Play nicely you two...

This discussion illustrates one of the reasons why I don't post stats and rarely post character background. No amount of text will 'justify' some things in the minds of some people and rather than argue with people, most of whom I'm never going to play against, I prefer to just create my characters as I think they should be and then start using them in games. That way, the feedback I get will be from people I do play and be based on how they actually work in the game rather than armchair discussion about how people think they'll play.  A lot depends on how the character is played, what scenarios he is being used in and so on - things that you don't see when looking at their profile in isolation.  That way I can go away and tweak my characters based on how I see their their performance and the informed comments of other players.

It sounds like Marco's characters are fine in his gaming group, but they're certainly coming in for a fair bit of criticism on here (it does make me curious about what people would say about my characters...). Part of it is that they seem to be intended as a pretty potent warband, however they don't seem totally overpowering compared to the types of characters I see at Conclave events; more powerful than some warbands certainly, but there's nothing wrong with that.  And as the point in posting these characters was as preparation for Spring Conclave, I'll point out that most games at that event won't be a simple win/lose type of thing - if one player has a powerful warband and achieves his objective he might not get as many 'points' as if a player with a weak warband had done the same thing - so there will be mechanisms for a GM to even things out even if they don't want to start tweaking people's characters.

[MarcoSkoll]

Okay, attempt #2

I've only adjusted the profile and abilities thus far - I'm not sure what I'm going to do as far as equipment. The sword seemed to be the only real area of major contention, and I've already rambled on about that.

WS	BS	S	T	I	Wp	Sg	Nv	Ld	Spd	BIV	SS	Cncs	Kckbk
61	70	62	64	71	67	73	68	59	5	6	13	32	6

Marco is right handed.
Skills:Rock Steady Aim
Traits: Soul Bond
Minor Talents: Gunsmith
Wyrd Powers: Telekinesis, Mass Awareness



I've lowered everything except T by various degrees. I've not much lowered some things, such as his BS - he is still meant to be a damn good shot, but Deadeye shot is now gone.
And while he's still T 64, if getting rid of True Grit doesn't count for "lowering his toughness", I don't know what does. I may tweak a few things a few points more, but I think I'm in a better ballpark now.

The next thing to discuss is that I'm adapting Mass Awareness as I wrote it before to work as a straight psychic power.
However, if anyone has a better idea for how to represent such a sense, please feel free to speak up. I've already explained it pretty well: Like you can feel your body, he can similarly feel his environment. Obviously not colour, or such like - but potentially, if he focuses closely enough, texture, density, hardness.
I'm not fussed about those kind of fine details, but I'm trying to find a quick and sleek way of representing a sense for physical matter.

On a similar note, I'm looking for suggestions on how to represent the soulbond. As I said in Silva's topic, it's best described as a "gut instinct for the emotions and whereabouts of the other" - and to some extent, their physical wellbeing.
No telepathy, no having to concentrate hard, just something they know without having to think about it.

[Shard]

If it was any consolation, I thought Marco Skoll was a fine example of an Inquisitor, certainly not overpowered. If anything, I would have made his combi-tool more potent (possibly on a Sg test seeing as he's not Cult Mechanicus so can't get the most out of it), but otherwise would have left him alone. 

[RobSkib]

Looks dandy, however I am going to reserve judgement til I see the model.  If you can make him look as badass and 40k as you can without making him looking like a Studio Ghibli wizard then I think you'll hit the nail on the head with this guy.