Inquisitor Drake Kaled, Ordo Hereticus

[Alyster Wick]

Let's remember when talking about BS that it's very an inherently BSed statistic (pun intended).  I think everyone can agree that firing a rifle, a pistol and a grenade launcher are all very different experiences (let alone throwing in all the weapon types in 40K that don't have a modern analog). 

Given the range penalties that come with firing a pistol and the fact that Kaled will be firing pistols I think it's fine. 

To propose an actual solution to this, characters could have a proficiency score in a given weapon build (pistol, rifle, machine gun, etc) and weapon type (las, bolt, bullet) so that they could incur penalties/gain bonuses based on what they're using rather than having the streamlined BS system currently in place.

It's possible to integrate this system in a relatively streamlined fashion if you consider the fact that characters rarely (at least in my games) use different weapons than the one they're carrying.  This system would allow for lower base BSes but could represent a character's proficiency with a gun they've shot for over a century.

For the record though, I vote for keeping the current system.  While fun for advanced players that want to spend the time/have the time to spend, this level of detail could kill a game for newer players looking to pick it up.

Also, I think at this point you've adequately shown why you don't generally post characters Kaled.   

[Myriad]

It has raised some interesting discussion points.

My 2 cents on the BS question is that 30 + 20 for training + 20 for experience gives him 70, and it's fair to add up to 10 for natural aptitude, or the extra century of experience.  Over 80 is the realm of exceptional individuals.

The basic percentage is for an unprepared shot - even one or two aim actions turns anyone dangerous.

[Kaled]

a couple of hours on average or so I suppose

Does that tie in with how long professional soldiers spend on the firing range today?  I know police firearms officers don't spend anywhere near that long training...

Fair enough, he could just have a lower than average I for an Inquisitor, or not, I just think it would make him more interesting.

In my experience, he does have a lower I than a lot of Inquisitors I play against - not all of them certainly, but many...

Also, I think at this point you've adequately shown why you don't generally post characters Kaled.

Yeah, while it's interesting to discuss a character on here and hear other people's opinions, at the end of the day I'm not going to change my character's profile as a result of the discussion as I still think he seems about right for the people I actually play against.

[Necris]

I've always found Kaled to be a fine character to play against

granted the bolt gun is a threat

but then it should be they are the most dangerous guns in the imperium are they not?

but as a Character I've had multiple levels of characters go toe to toe with him and most come out ok(ish)

besides I'll always remember the bolt round to the head....

[Inquisitor Cade]

Does that tie in with how long professional soldiers spend on the firing range today?  I know police firearms officers don't spend anywhere near that long training...

Well no, but these aren't modern soldiers or just regular guardsmen, for whom I'd guess, guess mind you, a day range training every fortnight or so, and would assign a Bs of 50-65. Space marines have no free time and are either in battle, praying or training at any time.

And imperial guardsmen don't rotate operations in the same way that modern soldiers do. I'd wouldn't be suprised if the elite guardsmen, when not in battle, would maintain one or two full days on ranges each week. Baring in mind that these men are all natruely exceptional soldiers anyway, so would be better shots than most for the same amount of training. How much of Kaleds skill is nature, how much is nurture.

[Kaled]

Space marines have no free time

I'm pretty sure that daily schedule of activites that was in one of the codices or wherever said that they have a whole 15 minutes of free time each day!

I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this issue - your vision of the training and capabilities of soldiers in the 41st millenium is slightly different to mine and is reflected in the stats we'd give our characters.  All these recent discussions just emhasise the fact that despite talk of a 'Conclave Standard', there is no such thing - I play using characters at a standard that seems roughly on a par with the people I play against, you prefer lower stats (for most characters), and we're both a bit below the ones in the back of the rulebook.

[Inquisitor Cade]

I might try what you suggested earlier, breaking each stat down quite thoroughly, and suggesting what they might represent. I think it would be nice if there was some sort of conclave standard, though it may be impravticle. Doesn't hert to try though.

Out of interest, what Bs would you assign a space marine, and what about a stormtrooper?

[Kaled]

I might try what you suggested earlier, breaking each stat down quite thoroughly, and suggesting what they might represent. I think it would be nice if there was some sort of conclave standard, though it may be impravticle. Doesn't hert to try though.

But what would be the point?  And whose standard would you write it to?  It's obvious from the discussions we've had recently that everyone has a slightly different opinion of what is correct - so unless everyone was going to convert their characters to fit some agreed upon standard it wouldn't really change anything.  All you'd really end up with is a guide that would be perfect for anyone playing a game against you, but if they came to play a game against me we'd be back in this argument about what value is appropriate.  And I can't see everyone changing their characters to fit some standard, because a lot of people play in their own gaming group rather than against members of the 'Clave - so you'd still have differing opinions clashing.

Out of interest, what Bs would you assign a space marine, and what about a stormtrooper?

Looking at my character profiles, my marine has a BS or around 80 and my stormtrooper types range from mid to low 60's to mid 70s, with higher values normally being reserved for people like my Ordo Sicarius operative.

[Inquisitor Cade]

I'll try to thrash out the range of opinions, see if we can reach an approximate concensus. Most all of us but importance on the stats defined at the beginning of the LRB, so there shouldn't be that much of a difference. I don't think that there are other sources of what stats mean, given that people turn to our opinion on the archetype profiles at the back. This should mean that we don't have much of a reason not to adjust our veiws on stats towards an average, esspecially as these moves will be minimal for the most part.

Your take on space marine Bs is negledgebly different to mine, though it surprises me that theat of the stormtrooper is so lower than the Inquisitor! It's the same as I'd have put it though.

[Kaled]

I'll try to thrash out the range of opinions, see if we can reach an approximate concensus.

But wasn't that the point of the 'Conclave standard' thread we tried a while ago?  The problem is not so much the lack of information, but the wide variation in the interpretation of that information - for example our discussion of what is meant when it says 'A competent human's WS would be between 50 and 60'..

This should mean that we don't have much of a reason not to adjust our veiws on stats towards an average, esspecially as these moves will be minimal for the most part.

But why would anyone adjust the stats of their character unless everyone else is going to be playing to the same 'standard'?  And unless you're extremely clever about the definitions you use, we'll still end up with different people interpretting things differently.  Maybe I'm wrong and you'll pull it off, but it's something a lot of people have tried in the past yet we're still here having the same discussions...

it surprises me that theat of the stormtrooper is so lower than the Inquisitor! It's the same as I'd have put it though.

Some of my stormtrooper types have different strengths, so some are better at shooting and other's talent lies elsewhere - and other Inquisitors in my collection have even higher BSs.