Author Topic: Inclusion of Space Marines.....  (Read 4166 times)

Offline psycho

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Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« on: July 06, 2010, 08:33:53 PM »
Ok...so whilst i know that most of you hate anyone that uses marines in INQ...however to hell with you lot (joking lol)!
Basically i wish to include a Marine from my own 40k army (Deathly Hallows - a Blood Angels Successor chapter).....as a companion for an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor....however he IS NOT Deathwatch....so could i feasibly include him (he is the Inquisitor's only companion)??? I mean whilst not being relatively fairly matched against other warbands, i still wish to use him. I just need a reason to lol....which is where you guys come in i hope :-)

kerby

Offline Heroka Vendile

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 11:15:52 PM »
perfectly reasonable for a space marine to be attached to an Inquisitor there are many reasons that such a situation could come about, 2 brief examples:

a) One of the inquisitors main investigations involves some past conflicts of the marines chapter, or indeed of the marine themselves and so the chapter are co-operating with the Inquisitor.

b) the marine has been banished from the chapter for X years for an indiscretion or failing, during this time the Inquisitor met and recruited the marine - a further twist on this would be that it was the Inquisitors fault (accidental or manipulation) that the marine was banished in the first place, whether or not the marine knows this is another matter entirely.
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Offline RobSkib

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 09:33:35 AM »
Have you played many games of Inquisitor before? I'm guessing probably not (no offense), as if you had, you'd know that a Space Marine kills everything it meets, literally. This is fun the first game, but scenarios quickly devolve into two categories: Kill the Space Marine or Avoid the Space Marine. You'll run out of gaming partners pretty quickly... (unless your gaming circle is that where people regularly bring eldar, necrons, chaos space marines, heavy bolters, plasma weapons, power armour and daemon swords to the table, in which case, bring a Razorback along!)

A full-powered space marine belongs on a battlefield, not sneaking around the back alleys of the secluded and half-obscured worlds that Inquisitor is home to - that is of course, unless you have a stellar reason for including a Space Marine ("I picked him out of my 40k army" would never slide with me if I was your GM) - at least take the effort to make a true-scale 40k marine, or take a leaf out of Greenstuff_Gav's book and make some simply incredible 54mm marines.

I may have sounded a tad harsh, but I just wanted to make sure you understand the risks of taking a space marine into a game - ie they will brutally kill, murder and destroy every PC they come into contact with, and then it stops becoming a game for the other players :(
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Offline Elva

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 06:44:20 PM »
On the issue of space marines, they are very broken, to say the least. In my experience, I've heard stories of three or four warbands going up against one and no one came in one piece, let alone sane. I believe the the issue is that people are used to playing 40k where they are dimmed down to make it more balanced. Inquisitor is a whole new mindset. Though if you are really bent on using one, I'd recommend using the ready reckoner, to make sure he's at least somewhat balanced against everyone else. Though you might not get room for an inquisitor, space marines eat RR points for breakfast, and Inquisitors are bad enough. Once you've got that done, test him out a couple times in individual scenarios and see what you think, you'll most likely wipe the table, but where's the fun in that?
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 07:02:09 PM »
Though if you are really bent on using one, I'd recommend using the ready reckoner, to make sure he's at least somewhat balanced against everyone else.
Really, the Ready Reckoner is not a good balance mechanism. Because of the way it works - or rather, doesn't - it just doesn't assign even vaguely equivalent "points" to models of roughly equivalent "Narrative gravity".
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Offline Elva

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 07:17:10 PM »
Really, the Ready Reckoner is not a good balance mechanism. Because of the way it works - or rather, doesn't - it just doesn't assign even vaguely equivalent "points" to models of roughly equivalent "Narrative gravity".

True, it is sketchy at best, but I like to use it as a rough guide to see where your character's stats, equipment, skills ect. are at in comparison to others. Though I guess the Conclave standard would be a good reference as well, it never hurts to use all resources available. But I think we can all agree that unless you're going up against a genestealer pure strain, or a particularly competent Eldar pirate prince even, there is no need to take a space marine, let alone a blood angle.

Just a quick question though, how do you balance your characters game wise?
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Offline Kaled

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 08:01:10 PM »
True, it is sketchy at best, but I like to use it as a rough guide to see where your character's stats, equipment, skills ect. are at in comparison to others.
The problem is that it's entirely possible to create two warbands where one is much more powerful than the other but both cost the same points - even as a rough guide the Ready Reckoner is pretty useless and can be misleading.  Better to create warbands and tweak their stats over a few games to make sure the stats properly represent the characters.

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Just a quick question though, how do you balance your characters game wise?
As far as games at Conclave events go, we don't balance our characters.  People are free to bring whatever characters they want (however they normally only get to use three characters at a time) - this means that some people have warbands that are far more powerful than others.  Often that means one player will be at a serious disadvantage as their warband is less capable - but most of the time I don't see this as a problem, it may be more difficult for the player to achieve his objectives, but when he does the victory is all the sweeter.

Sometimes the GM will impose some form of balance.  For example, the GM might give more difficult objectives to the more capable warband - so a warband that is heavily armed and armoured might be given an objective to break up a trade between the other two warbands and hence find themselves outnumbered.  Alternatively they might be given an objective where there prowess at arms isn't going to be of much help to them.  On rare occasions a GM might ask that a player not use a particular character for a particular scenario - and a lot of us will bring more characters than we need for any single game so we can swap between them to use characters appropriate for the scenario.

I know that in some games my characters will be evenly matched, but in others they will be over/under-powered - however as long as the game is fun, balance is unimportant.  The attitude of the players is far far more important.  Balance is a concept best left to other games - it's not really necessary for Inquisitor.
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Offline Elva

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 08:19:08 PM »

The problem is that it's entirely possible to create two warbands where one is much more powerful than the other but both cost the same points - even as a rough guide the Ready Reckoner is pretty useless and can be misleading.  Better to create warbands and tweak their stats over a few games to make sure the stats properly represent the characters.

Hmm, interesting. I guess tweaking and making modifications is the way to go. There probably are so many different character builds available, that its impossible to prepare for every situation.

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Just a quick question though, how do you balance your characters game wise?
Quote
As far as games at Conclave events go, we don't balance our characters.  People are free to bring whatever characters they want (however they normally only get to use three characters at a time) - this means that some people have warbands that are far more powerful than others.  Often that means one player will be at a serious disadvantage as their warband is less capable - but most of the time I don't see this as a problem, it may be more difficult for the player to achieve his objectives, but when he does the victory is all the sweeter.

Sometimes the GM will impose some form of balance.  For example, the GM might give more difficult objectives to the more capable warband - so a warband that is heavily armed and armoured might be given an objective to break up a trade between the other two warbands and hence find themselves outnumbered.  Alternatively they might be given an objective where there prowess at arms isn't going to be of much help to them.  On rare occasions a GM might ask that a player not use a particular character for a particular scenario - and a lot of us will bring more characters than we need for any single game so we can swap between them to use characters appropriate for the scenario.

I know that in some games my characters will be evenly matched, but in others they will be over/under-powered - however as long as the game is fun, balance is unimportant.  The attitude of the players is far far more important.  Balance is a concept best left to other games - it's not really necessary for Inquisitor.

What I'm taking out of this is that its up to the GM to make it a bit easier, and that story takes priority over effective gaming. Which would make sense in a narrative game like Inquisitor.  You wouldn't expect two warbands of three or four people to be completely balanced against each other. And I very much agree with that, its about making it more than just a game of luck, its about having fun and developing your characters as the campaign progresses, which is what got me so interested in the first place.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 08:48:17 PM by Elva »
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Offline MarcoSkoll

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 08:44:46 PM »
Often that means one player will be at a serious disadvantage as their warband is less capable - but most of the time I don't see this as a problem, it may be more difficult for the player to achieve his objectives, but when he does the victory is all the sweeter.
And, let's be honest, winning isn't the point of the game.

I horribly lost the game with the Valkyrie at the Spring Conclave, but it was still my favourite game of the day (and one of the best games I've ever played, actually). Two cyborgs having a chainsword duel under the aircraft's wing, about four different Mexican standoffs, rocks through jet engines and finally people being thrown out of the rising Valkyrie.

... THAT is the point of Inquisitor.

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As far as games at Conclave events go, we don't balance our characters.
Not necessarily entirely true. We do tend to work by vaguely similar interpretations of "Conclave Standard", and with the intent of fairness. Of course, interpretations do vary, but we are at least working from vaguely similar interpretations of what an "expert swordsman" should be like.

If particular imbalance exists, it's more likely to be as a result of a player having envisioned less formidable characters (a savant, an astropath, a navigator... this kind of thing).
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Offline Elva

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 08:59:26 PM »

And, let's be honest, winning isn't the point of the game.

I horribly lost the game with the Valkyrie at the Spring Conclave, but it was still my favourite game of the day (and one of the best games I've ever played, actually). Two cyborgs having a chainsword duel under the aircraft's wing, about four different Mexican standoffs, rocks through jet engines and finally people being thrown out of the rising Valkyrie.

... THAT is the point of Inquisitor .

I've had a game or two like that. We did this one scenario where we had to reach a shuttle. My two guard vets didn't make it, but one of them almost took out an inquisitor with a frag grenade and his power sword, after being blasted with an auto gun on full auto and taking a lot of damage. Plus one  character got shot in the groin with man-stopper rounds about three times if I remember correctly. It was crude humour to say the least, but we had a good time laughing at it.

Quote
Not necessarily entirely true. We do tend to work by vaguely similar interpretations of "Conclave Standard", and with the intent of fairness. Of course, interpretations do vary, but we are at least working from vaguely similar interpretations of what an "expert swordsman" should be like.

If particular imbalance exists, it's more likely to be as a result of a player having envisioned less formidable characters (a savant, an astropath, a navigator... this kind of thing).

That's all anyone can really ask for.
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Offline Kaled

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 09:42:43 PM »
What I'm taking out of this is that its up to the GM to make it a bit easier, and that story takes priority over effective gaming. Which would make sense in a narrative game like Inquisitor.  You wouldn't expect two warbands of three or four people to be completely balanced against each other. And I very much agree with that, its about making it more than just a game of luck, its about having fun and developing your characters as the campaign progresses, which is what got me so interested in the first place.
That about sums it up - the GM is there to keep the game running and to make sure that everyone involved has fun.  Sometimes this will involve 'balancing' the opposing sides, sometimes it is about revealing the plot as the game progresses,sometime he just has to keep things flowing and arbitrate any disagreements.  All involved should be more interested in telling a story than in 'winning' or 'losing' and as long as they are, balance is unnecessary and may be counter-productive - sometimes one side should be outnumbered and/or outgunned.

Not necessarily entirely true. We do tend to work by vaguely similar interpretations of "Conclave Standard", and with the intent of fairness. Of course, interpretations do vary, but we are at least working from vaguely similar interpretations of what an "expert swordsman" should be like.
Yes, that is true in most cases - although occasionally people come along who don't work to the 'Conclave Standard', and I've never really found this to be much of a problem.  Even if their characters are more powerful, as long as the player has the right attitude then the imbalance is not worth worring about.
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Offline greenstuff_gav

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 09:53:41 PM »
or take a leaf out of Greenstuff_Gav's book and make some simply incredible 54mm marines.

i hasten to add that all the marines i've made have legitimate background making 'em suitable for inquisitor!
An example would be an ex-veteran, retired from service, now a diplomat; has an example in established canon (Tau codex) and gives a wide variety of reasons to be included in a campaign :)
and if you spend alot of time and effort to make a stonking good miniature (i am rather proud of him!) people are a bit more lenient :D
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Offline Molotov

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2010, 08:04:48 AM »
A full-powered space marine belongs on a battlefield, not sneaking around the back alleys of the secluded and half-obscured worlds that Inquisitor is home to...

Which gives you the opportunity to make your Space Marine less than full-powered. Perhaps they don't have their armour. Perhaps they've been given to the Inquisitor's service due to some substantial failing in their gene-seed - something that works to remove him from the serried ranks of "ordinary" Marines and serves to make him a little different and distinct.
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Offline psycho

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Re: Inclusion of Space Marines.....
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2010, 09:12:48 PM »
right well firstly
Ive played around 50 games so far....mainly with a group of power gamers that i no longer play with....its just me and my Dad passing the nights away with a good laugh.
I know that Marines kick the crap out of everything, however seeing as my dads main warband has a Witch Hunter in Power Armour (trust me he still gets owned) i dont think this would over power the game too much.
Secondly please stay on the topic guys lol i need some more ideas lol
Thirdly I love Mols idea to be honest, i think that given as hes a Blood Angel, he could have a major defect, along the lines of the Black Rage or Red Thirst etc etc....but this also gives him a negative affect to his metabolism meaning that he suffers injury harder etc etc

Heroka i think your idea of the INQ manipulating him is awesome so i may need to use this

thanks guys

kerby