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Demons?

Started by Darios, August 13, 2009, 12:49:27 PM

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InquisitorHeidfeld

Quote from: Kaled on August 13, 2009, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 13, 2009, 01:28:47 PM
What's the daemon's name? What event coallesced warp matter into its consciousness? ...
My first thought when reading this lot was that it may all be utterly irrelevant depending on the scenario being played - the characters involved may well not know any of those things, and hence there's little need for the GM to know them (especially if he's the type who will happily make such details up on the fly if it does comes up in the game).
On the other hand, the GM has every right to expect that the player know where their Inquisitor was born (or why they don't know... or why they don't know why they don't know...etc).
I would not expect a GM to create an Inquisitor who is to form the focus of the campaign without such details. I would not expect to progress through the campaign without the opportunity to illuminate such details by my choice of action and therefore potentially expose a weakness in the ultimate adversary.

I would suggest that if anything a Daemon's nature should make this sort of information more important than in a flesh and blood opponent. Imagine for example that one of the Inquisitors decides to bring an appropriate sacrifice in order to capture the daemon in a Daemonhost rather than attempting to destroy it...
And yet in most games any daemonic aspect is "A bloodletter" or "A Lord of Change". A two dimensional parody of the sheer horror such elements should represent.

Making things up on the fly is all very well with minor roles, with major factors however it is vital that consistency is retained and therefore that (even if initial hints are improvised) some record is kept to describe the shape of things and their fine detail.

Kaled

Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 14, 2009, 01:17:26 PM
On the other hand, the GM has every right to expect that the player know where their Inquisitor was born (or why they don't know... or why they don't know why they don't know...etc).
I'd say such information is rarely necessary - the details of an Inquisitor's early life may be irrevelevant.  If the GM does need to know that information for some reason then the player can make it up at that point.

QuoteI would not expect a GM to create an Inquisitor who is to form the focus of the campaign without such details. I would not expect to progress through the campaign without the opportunity to illuminate such details by my choice of action and therefore potentially expose a weakness in the ultimate adversary.
As I said, it depends on the scenario.  You're assuming the characters know they're going to come up against a daemon and have opportunity to potentially expose its weakness - that might not be the case.  The appearance of the daemon might come as a complete surprise to the players/characters.

QuoteMaking things up on the fly is all very well with minor roles, with major factors however it is vital that consistency is retained and therefore that (even if initial hints are improvised) some record is kept to describe the shape of things and their fine detail.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily vital.  An important part of improvising well is to make things only as detailed as necessary, but still keep them vague enough to allow you some wiggle room should you need it later.
I like to remember things my own way... Not necessarily the way they happened.

Inquisitor - Blood Bowl - Malifaux - Fairy Meat

Alyster Wick

While your Daemons are pretty stock Darios (not that this is a bad thing, they're beautiful models), I think players and GMs should be encouraged to experiment with daemonic characters and treat the 40K stats and details as more of a loose template.  Daemons are only generic in 40K because they have to be for the sake of the rules, just as units or guardsmen are fairly generic.  Statlines are uniform because they need to be in order for the game to be playable.  Just as you wouldn't give an Inquisitor a retinue of generic storm troopers daemons should have their own variations as well.

I would personally shy away from generic daemons in favor of creating ones devoted to an individual chaos god.  For a long time I've wanted to create a daemon based on the ones seen in Dead Sky, Black Sun who evaporate into a cloud of blood when foes attempt to strike them, only to reform again after. 

Anyway, aside from that flight of fancy, I'd agree with most here that say a traditional Bloodletter should have a statline roughly equivalent to a space marine.  You could tone down the toughness and give them some of the daemonic properties mentioned in the rule book to compensate (where mundane weapons to half damage).  Playing around with these rules in game would be key and could be a good compromise between Kaled's method of on the fly rules (which I think would work great) and the desire to have an actual statline.  If you find the daemon is loosing HP too quick, then you could knock blessed weapons down to only doing their normal amount of damage (rather than increased damage).  Having good backup plans for optional use (say blood is drawn to the Bloodletter and helps reform his body so he gains the regenerate ability if someone is bleeding within X inches) is a good idea as well.  Add a chamber to the scenario with a blood fountain and then you're really cooking.  If you find it's unnecessary, then conveniently drop the rule in game.

QuoteOtherwise I'd say that it is all about their instability.

As far as their instability goes, I'd suggest definitely putting something in the scenario to negate the need to test for this.  There would be nothing worse than having a long, hardfought battle where your inquisitor is raising his sword to deliver the killing blow when all of a sudden the Bloodletter just disintegrates back into the warp due to an instability role.  Completely anticlimactic.  All you need is a reason for the daemon to be stable for a few hours (since most scenarios probably last a number of minutes) and you're good to go.  Say the scenario takes place near a hole in the warp, there's a warpstorm, a chaos cult has sacrificed 20 virgins, etc. 

Anyway, enough ranting.  Either way, daemons should make for a fun scenario.

Charax

QuoteAs far as their instability goes, I'd suggest definitely putting something in the scenario to negate the need to test for this.  There would be nothing worse than having a long, hardfought battle where your inquisitor is raising his sword to deliver the killing blow when all of a sudden the Bloodletter just disintegrates back into the warp due to an instability role.  Completely anticlimactic.

This is why I made Instability add to the injury total - instability makes a daemon easier to defeat, but only the very weak-willed ones are likely to disappear in a puff of logic. While instability kicking in just before the killing blow is dealt is still possible, it's not nearly as likely.

That, or just keep the daemon around someone with the Mark of Khorne to keep them anchored, then you can either take on the daemon head-on, or take on the mark-bearer to weaken the daemon.
(No longer} The guy with his name at the bottom of the page

Darios

well maybe i should explain a bit more about the actual campaign...

first of all: there are no player controlled inquisitors here. not a single one. the two player groups is an Arbites combat team and a redemprionist gang. *g* so no one in there with enough knowledge to even suspect that demons are for real.
the storyline began with the redemptionists searching for missing members and getting into conflict with the arbites on the way. the arbites are doing researches about missing people from the hive spires and suspect some serial killer behind it all, or maybe a death cult.
so when they meet the arbites get the impression that the redemptionist are somewhat involved into all this, thus making them enemies. in the course of events it turns out that there is another cult involved which abducts people (what the cult does with them, the players still don't know....) and in the end it turns out to be a chaos death cult doing bloody rituals to invoke something they call "avatar of blood" (which is a certain bloodletter / herald of Khorne) both players are now trying to find out what is going on, the redemptionists to take revenge for their lost members and the arbites to purge any crimes. so there is no chance to bind the demon and so on, the groups simply lack the knowledge for it.

so what i was looking for were more or less ideas to properly represent a deamons ability "ingame". and as he was properly invoked ( if the ritual in the last szenario is working out ^^ without the players stopping it) there is no need for instability so far....

precinctomega

Is no one else stunned to see Charax's Books of Chaos back online?  Did I miss a pronouncement?

R.

Charax

I was wondering if anyone would notice, but it's not really back, I just put the scraps left over from a previous quasi-revival up so people could see the daemon rules. that's why half of it doesn't work.

It seems like the rules for Gifts are lost to the ether though.
(No longer} The guy with his name at the bottom of the page

InquisitorHeidfeld

The old WFRP rules for instability provide a better basis for the Inquisitor system than the battle game rules. In WFRP the instability test didn't occur every round, the unstable creature could be relied upon to do what it was there for for at least a certain amount of time.
Of course the issue that skeletons and such would almost always collapse in a heap as soon as they were forced to test... while the major threats to the party's life and limb would invariably become devastating killing machine, all through the vagueries of the dice, could be tricky to handle.

As to the scenario outlined...

I would suggest that a great deal of information is still required.
Why is that particular daemon and its blade brother the target of the summoning? What are its plans within the world? What is its name?...etc.
The summoning will need information and a good Arbiter should note such information - which may, justifiably, come up later in the campaign.

The picture painted ATM is that the level boss has appeared on the scene - it needs to be killed before things can progress.
And that is not the way Daemons should work.

timotiis

Quote from: InquisitorHeidfeld on August 13, 2009, 01:28:47 PMI wish I'd thought to keep copies of the old Character indices.

Do you mean the 20 Questions, or something else?

I have the 20 Questions saved from the old Conclave, so I can post those up if you need them. If it's something else, give me a title and I'll try to dig it up.

InquisitorHeidfeld

The 20 Questions would be good too - but I had a daemon posted up in the two character indices; M'Hett M'Teth, background and some personality...etc in the OOC board thread and stats...etc in the Rules discussion one.